Report: Bills working on extension for Jordan Phillips

[BillsSB2020]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

LOL.

Talk about a subjective opinion being presented as objective fact.

At least Star's signing helped contribute to the 2nd ranked defense in the NFL.

You must have slept through the signings of Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker, Larry Triplett, Kirk Morrison, Vontae Davis, Peerless Price (second edition), Andra Davis, Andre Davis, Melvin Fowler, Mark Anderson, and Philip Gaines.

 

I'm not going to bash Star, but many of those players were had on the cheap. I think Star contributes and aids those around him, but I'm not certain it was a good financial deal from the Buffalo Bills standpoint.

[HappyDays]

16 minutes ago, Watkins90 said:

Calling it one of the worst moves in Bills free agency history is just plain stupid. 

 

The trolls here are fighting for real estate. Bad takes aren't enough. You need to have the WORST takes to really prove your mettle.

[Lafromboise]

3 hours ago, FLFan said:

It may be that Star was not a good value, but I think there is little question he outperformed Dareus in the role he was asked to play.  The real Dareus, what he had become, not the version he was when he was signed to the rich contract.  The fact is that Dareus had become an overweight, lazy, malcontent who was hurting the team by his presence.  Nothing in his performance since going to Jacksonville would suggest otherwise.  The Bills were better in the long term to be rid of him, even if they suffered in the short term, and even if they overpayed (at the same level they were paying the problem child) for an equal or better replacement.  The Defense improved.  

Good post

[formerlyofCtown]

14 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Considering the price tag for someone that saw less then 50% of the snaps and only appeared on the stat sheet once with a single TFL. His salary combined with the dead money from Dareus proved to be not the greatest of deals. You can find space eaters for cheaper than his salary.

 

also, saying our defense was ranked 2nd proves stats are for losers. They were so bad in the beginning of the year, teams could run 0 offense and still win comfortably. If you watched most of their games they weren’t  even the 2nd best defense on the field most games

Really because the guy Carolina signed to replace him has almost the same yearly average salary.  A little cheaper though.  

Although I agree we probably didnt have the second best D in the league we were definitly legit top 10 maybe even top 5.  So youre exagerating a bit here.  You might want to consider how much time or rather the lack of time our Offense was on the field.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[teef]

16 hours ago, Logic said:

Imagine saying "stats are for losers" and then also CITING STATS FOR A FREAKING 1T/NT in the very same post. ?

he's a gem...isn't he?

[NewEra]

What a train wreck of a thread

[BADOLBILZ]

16 hours ago, Watkins90 said:

Calling it one of the worst moves in Bills free agency history is just plain stupid. 

 

 

Duly noted that you are incredulous that a 17 tackle season with 0 QB hits was a great signing for $10M per because he single handedly kept the Patriots under 300 yards rushing in the first half of the game in Foxboro!   Dominance!

[Bray Wyatt]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Duly noted that you are incredulous that a 17 tackle season with 0 QB hits was a great signing for $10M per because he single handedly kept the Patriots under 300 yards rushing in the first half of the game in Foxboro!   Dominance!

 

Just because he doesnt think its fair to call it the worst move in history doesnt mean he thinks its a great signing either

[Alphadawg7]

On 2/8/2019 at 1:25 PM, Binghamton Beast said:

 

The guy was waived from a contract he was making a little over 1 million a year on. We claimed him and did I read right that he played only one-third of the defensive snaps?

 

Giving this guy anywhere near 10 million a year would be so stupid.

 

Lets be real though...he came in midseason not knowing the system or playbook on a team that already had Star and Kyle along with rookie Horrible Harry.  Wasnt like he was suddenly going to start of either Kyle or Star, especially not having a full offseason and regular season with the team and playbook.  

 

So still playing one third of the snaps under those conditions is actually impressive.  He quickly carved his way into the rotation as a midseason arrival.  Why do people expect he was going to play more than that under those circumstances?  This is where once again "stats" do not tell the whole story without the context.  

 

And I dont say that to advocate for say $10m a year, I say that specifically about your criticism of the 1/3 snaps without applying the context to that part of the information.  

Edited February 14, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[BADOLBILZ]

16 hours ago, BillsSB2020 said:

I'm not going to bash Star, but many of those players were had on the cheap. I think Star contributes and aids those around him, but I'm not certain it was a good financial deal from the Buffalo Bills standpoint.

 

 

Yes.........let's be clear that he is ABSOLUTELY better than the guys they tried to elevate off of the practice squad when the D gave up 200+ yards rushing per game during that historically bad stretch of defense in 2017.

 

But would it have been surprising to get that level of play from ANY kind of draft pick or modest free agent pickup?

 

 Not really, IMO.    In analytic terms I'd put his "wins above replacement" at zero......which is absurd for $10M per year average..........and the real kicker is that they are stuck with him for 2 more years unless they want to eat more dead money.........doubling down on the Dareus dump....... because they guaranteed $25M of his contract.

 

His cap hit next year......when he is likely to only further decline.........$11.5M.

 

It's hard to listen to the cries of cap hardship from Beane and keep a straight face when it's OK to throw $50M at a declining space eater.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Just because he doesnt think its fair to call it the worst move in history doesnt mean he thinks its a great signing either

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

 

The people who say "well Star isn't about stats" presume that is the basis on which he is being judged. It's not. Those of us who think he is at best passable despite being paid like a difference maker do understand his job. We just don't think he did it all that well in 2018.

[Bray Wyatt]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Then if they (or you) have a nomination for Bills worst UFA signing.........step up and illustrate who and why.........or shut up.

 

Just saying "I disagree and you are stupid" does not a point make.........and the venom indicates a polar opposite opinion........hence my response.

 

The Bills actually don't have a history of signing UFA's that have totally flamed out and cost them massive amounts of money/cap room.

 

Their $10M per year deals are actually pretty few in UFA............so Star is fairly unique...........the only recent comparison of a majorly disappointing deal that the Bills were hamstrung by is Charles Clay and for all his faults Clay has been a good blocker and one of the more productive receiving TE's in team history.........so an invisible $10M DT is definitely worse.

 

 Star was a lump last year..........the people calling it a bad signing were basing that on his modest play in Carolina..........but then his drop-off in his first season from his production in the same defense in Carolina was PRECIPITOUS.

 

Well why dont you ask the guy you were responding to? Its on him to back up his statement

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The people who say "well Star isn't about stats" presume that is the basis on which he is being judged. It's not. Those of us who think he is at best passable despite being paid like a difference maker do understand his job. We just don't think he did it all that well in 2018.

 

I guess that's where the disagreement lies. He isn't being paid like a difference maker. He has the 15th highest average salary out of every DT. He is right between Dontari Poe and Cory Liuget on the salary list. I'd say that's a fair estimation of where his value lies. And the most recent contracts will always be slightly higher than the ones before. To me, Star is perfect value because I don't need an elite run stuffer in the modern NFL. Average to slightly above average is all I'm looking for, and that's exactly what our run defense was in 2018. $10 million per year isn't that much anymore. The salary cap increase this year alone pays his salary. The real difference makers are making over $15 million per year.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

Well why dont you ask the guy you were responding to? Its on him to back up his statement

 

 

I was responding to you because you interjected yourself into the discussion.

 

I don't care about their opinion.......based on their initial response I'm assured it will be an embarrassingly unjustifiable take...........so better to let it be.

 

I'm just showing you how this message board thing works.

 

Now you know..........you're welcome.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I guess that's where the disagreement lies. He isn't being paid like a difference maker. He has the 15th highest average salary out of every DT. He is right between Dontari Poe and Cory Liuget on the salary list. I'd say that's a fair estimation of where his value lies. And the most recent contracts will always be slightly higher than the ones before. To me, Star is perfect value because I don't need an elite run stuffer in the modern NFL. Average to slightly above average is all I'm looking for, and that's exactly what our run defense was in 2018. $10 million per year isn't that much anymore. The salary cap increase this year alone pays his salary. The real difference makers are making over $15 million per year.

 

That's fair in the sense of him not being paid like an elite DT - but a guy on that money is still being paid as a difference maker. When I look at the way he actually played in 2018 he wasn't anywhere close to the 15th best DT in the league. He'd be struggling to break the top 50. He wasn't even the best run stuffer on the Bills. The rookie they took in the 3rd round was more effective against the run (I know Star played more snaps and it isn't quite an apples to apples comparison but it is still true). You could have got Star's production at half the cost quite easily.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I guess that's where the disagreement lies. He isn't being paid like a difference maker. He has the 15th highest average salary out of every DT. He is right between Dontari Poe and Cory Liuget on the salary list. I'd say that's a fair estimation of where his value lies. And the most recent contracts will always be slightly higher than the ones before. To me, Star is perfect value because I don't need an elite run stuffer in the modern NFL. Average to slightly above average is all I'm looking for, and that's exactly what our run defense was in 2018. $10 million per year isn't that much anymore. The salary cap increase this year alone pays his salary. The real difference makers are making over $15 million per year.

 

 

I've seen some reach tactics on TSW before..............but wow.

 

There is little comparison between the deals Liuget and Poe have versus Star's.............Liuget is on the end of his deal(AND he's getting cut)........but SD got his best years...........and Poe got $10M guaranteed last offseason while Star got $25M guaranteed.

 

I don't know if you are that ignorant of how the salary cap works and the true value of contracts...........or you are just trying to be willfully misleading hoping the sheep buy it....... but suffice to say presenting that weak sh*t in response to Gunner is impressively disrespectful to someone who consistently provides well informed takes.

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That's fair in the sense of him not being paid like an elite DT - but a guy on that money is still being paid as a difference maker. When I look at the way he actually played in 2018 he wasn't anywhere close to the 15th best DT in the league. He'd be struggling to break the top 50. He wasn't even the best run stuffer on the Bills. The rookie they took in the 3rd round was more effective against the run (I know Star played more snaps and it isn't quite an apples to apples comparison but it is still true). You could have got Star's production at half the cost quite easily.

 

I don't evaluate film like you do so I'm not going to try and rank him. Ideally you'd want to rank him with other run stuffers. He is obviously not a top 10 DT and he isn't being paid as one. He isn't even a top 20 DT, but some of those in the top 20 are on rookie deals so you can't really compare their salary. In any case it depends on what you mean by difference maker. Do teams specifically game plan around him, no. Did he improve the run defense, I think the answer is a definite yes. This was brought up earlier in the thread, Carolina's rush defense declined when he left and ours improved after we signed him. I know there are other factors - Milano improved, Shaq looked better, Taron Johnson defended the run well - but the biggest difference we made was adding Star. And that was with Edmunds struggling against the run most of the year.

 

Here's Football Outsider's defensive line rankings:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

They give us the 9th best in run blocking, and #1 overall in stuffed percentage. On 2nd level yards we ranked 24th. That signals to me that Star did his job well, but when rushers made it through him the LBs didn't do their jobs.

 

In 2017 they had us 28th best in run blocking and 10th in stuffed percentage.

 

Looks to me like Star was a difference maker.

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Here's Football Outsider's defensive line rankings:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

They give us the 9th best in run blocking, and #1 overall in stuffed percentage. On 2nd level yards we ranked 24th. That signals to me that Star did his job well, but when rushers made it through him the LBs didn't do their jobs.

 

In 2017 they had us 28th best in run blocking and 10th in stuffed percentage.

 

Looks to me like Star was a difference maker.

This pretty much matches the eye test, imo. Edmunds struggled mightily at times to fill, mostly because he was hesitant to commit to what he was seeing. And when he wasn’t being hesitant, teams were taking advantage of his over pursuit as well. Not surprising, especially earlier on in the season when he was sipping from a fire hose. Better LB play next season will greatly improve the perception of our DL’s run stopping ability. 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't evaluate film like you do so I'm not going to try and rank him. Ideally you'd want to rank him with other run stuffers. He is obviously not a top 10 DT and he isn't being paid as one. He isn't even a top 20 DT, but some of those in the top 20 are on rookie deals so you can't really compare their salary. In any case it depends on what you mean by difference maker. Do teams specifically game plan around him, no. Did he improve the run defense, I think the answer is a definite yes. This was brought up earlier in the thread, Carolina's rush defense declined when he left and ours improved after we signed him. I know there are other factors - Milano improved, Shaq looked better, Taron Johnson defended the run well - but the biggest difference we made was adding Star. And that was with Edmunds struggling against the run most of the year.

 

Here's Football Outsider's defensive line rankings:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl

 

They give us the 9th best in run blocking, and #1 overall in stuffed percentage. On 2nd level yards we ranked 24th. That signals to me that Star did his job well, but when rushers made it through him the LBs didn't do their jobs.

 

In 2017 they had us 28th best in run blocking and 10th in stuffed percentage.

 

Looks to me like Star was a difference maker.

 

With all due respect, the relevant stat to look at from football outsiders when considering the overall run game effectiveness of the DLine is "Adjusted line yards". In 2018 we ranked 10th with 4.15. In 2017 we ranked 21st with 4.18 which is improvement - but not a massive improvement. The biggest factor in the jump in ranking is actually the performance of other teams. 4.15 good enough for 10th best in 2018 would only have ranked 19th best in 2017. We were better against the run - but that was addition by subtraction. Adolphus Washington played DT for half of 2017 and was probably the worst player in the NFL regularly seeing the field during that period. I'd say that the 0.03 improvement in the adjusted line yards score from Football Outsiders could very easily be explained by replacing Adolphus Washington.... even if the replacement was an inanimate object.... more than it being explained by the $10m per year man. And as I say again - watching the tape Star was outperformed against the run by Harrison Phillips. A 3rd round pick who was making less than a 10th of Star's money.