How Much Pressure Was Doug Whaley Under To Win?

[Bing Bong]

I liked Whaley's strategy, not the execution. Totally fine with the win now strategy and regardless we'd all be singing a different tune if EJ turned out like we think JA will. He inherited probably the best Bills team since the drought.

 

He didn't draft well nor re-sign the correct players for big money but Beane is being totally naive ( if he's really throwing shade at Whaley for going for win now strategy) if he's not considering they inherited totally different teams. Whaley had some studs just disappear when he got Wrexed and had too many bad draft picks. Rookie GM move to think tearing down any roster for a 5 year plan is always the go to move. It was acceptable for us with Beane.. but equally risky if he can't land his draft picks either. He wouldn't (or shouldn't) have done the same if he inherited the Panthers. Ask Raiders fans about Gruden.

 

Drafting well makes any strategy work.

 

Beane might very well have re-signed KB and Star to big contracts at Carolina just as Whaley did with his predecessor's players lol. It's easier to smell disfunction in other teams. Every team has something going other GMs wouldn't approve of and want put their old team's stamp on.

Edited January 4, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[BillyWhiteShows]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Doug was not a complete failure as a GM but he also wasn't good enough.

 

As for the point of the question - was he under more pressure to win and win instantly? Yes. He undeniably was when compared to this regime. The Bills were trying to be attractive to new owners and then they were trying to make a splash when the new owners arrived. The splashy hiring of Rex (which was not a Whaley move) and the splurge in FA of 2015 (which was contrary to every other FA in the Nix/Whaley era and was almost certainty at Rex's request) it was all about winning quickly.

 

Brandon Beane may well prove to be a superior GM to Doug Whaley. Just confirmation that he hit on Josh Allen would be enough to end that argument. But it is beyond question that he has been given the time and space to recast this roster in his image of a successful NFL team without the pressure of needing immediate results. The playoffs last year bought them some more time, for sure, but Beane has said at the podium many times that his pitch to the Pegulas in his interview was "it will take me 2 years to clear things up before I can start properly on the rebuild." Terry and Kim were so fed up of splashy by that point that patience and process sold well. I prefer that approach too. Hopefully it pays dividends.

 

First off, this is 100% speculation.  By all indications, Whaley did support the hiring of Rex and was comfortable in the power he was provided by ownership.  If he felt neutered or usurped, I highly doubt he resigns an extension.

 

Second your point about 2015 was spurred by Rex is also fantasy.  Take a look at the 2012 off-season.  Both Buddy and Whaley signed a ridiculous for Mario Williams and a sick and disgusting overpaid contract for Mark Anderson.  So don’t tell me they never overspent for free agents, because when they could like in 2012 and 2015, they did and it f***ed the Bills salary cap

31 minutes ago, cba fan said:

I would add those 7 also.

Reggie starts and is a two down run stopper. Shaq is effectively a starter now. Jones is effective now and flashes 2 td games which puts him in quality but of course not consistent quality.

Cockrell was a Rex stupid error letting him go. He has graded out good ever since. 

Seantrel started 28 of 35 career games and Texans had him penciled in as starter after impressive preseason then he was injured and IR'd after first game this year.

K Seymour played in all 16 games in 2017 and was effectively the starting nickel back. Then was starting until injury in preseason this year.

 

I completely disagree with what your measuring stick is for a successful pick.  You do realize that all GM’s draft players who turn out to average right?   There are a lot of Ross Crockrell’s, Kevon Seymour’s, or Seantrel Henderson’s.  That doesn’t mean a GM is anything special.

 

The good GM’s hit big on picks - Whaley never did this.  He ran 3 drafts as GM (not counting 2017 as he did not make the picks) and those three drafts are not exactly resume builders.

 

Doug is where he belongs....in the XFL.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

First off, this is 100% speculation.  By all indications, Whaley did support the hiring of Rex and was comfortable in the power he was provided by ownership.  If he felt neutered or usurped, I highly doubt he resigns an extension.

 

Second your point about 2015 was spurred by Rex is also fantasy.  Take a look at the 2012 off-season.  Both Buddy and Whaley signed a ridiculous for Mario Williams and a sick and disgusting overpaid contract for Mark Anderson.  So don’t tell me they never overspent for free agents, because when they could like in 2012 and 2015, they did and it f***ed the Bills salary cap

 

I know for a fact Whaley wanted Hue Jackson, so not speculation. It might have been even worse under Hue granted but Rex was not his choice. He obviously felt on some level he could work with Rex but Rex Ryan was not Doug Whaley's choice. He was Terry Pegula's. 

 

As for the FA point we immediately have a significant disagreement about the Mario deal. It was not a ridiculous contract. When you go and get the best pass rusher to hit the FA market in a number of years and a former #1 overall pick you better expect that to cost. If Clowney hits the FA market in a similar fashion this year he will get Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack money. He isn't as good as either (though he is a fine player) but that is FA. You want top talent at critical positions you overpay.

 

Mark Anderson - yep - I will give you him. That was a garbage deal. But when we look specifically at 2015 we need to look at where the money went:

Charles Clay (Greg Roman and Rex were both quoted as saying he was their target because of his fit in Roman's offense);

LeSean McCoy (they gave him a big new contract to keep him happy after he was traded here but that pretty much worked out);

Percy Harvin (Rex with the Jets was the only person stupid enough to rescue this overrated bum when Seattle tired of him and then as soon as Rex turned up here so, like a bad smell, did Percy Harvin). 

 

So two of the three guys we committed big money to in 2015 there are very clear lines of sight to Rex Ryan. 

 

Now if we are talking about them paying Hughes that year and paying Dareus that year (ie. keeping our own) you can pin that on Doug Whaley, no argument from me. The Dareus contract was a joint effort from Whaley and Overdorff and was obviously a bad one.

[C.Biscuit97]

On 1/1/2019 at 8:56 PM, EasternOHBillsFan said:

Whaley's legacy is how many of his draft picks remain on our team, and how many remain in the league as impact players.

 

That says it all... he legacy as a poor drafter is THE key. Overspending is but the secondary issue. If your drafted players aren't great, you are in trouble.

Yeah.  None of Whaley’s draft picks are playing key roles on good teams. None.

 

crazy thing.  When you have talented veterans players, they cost money.  We don’t currently have any talented veteran players

 

but clearly, it is Whaley’s fault for giving up draft picks for Kelvin Benjamin and trading up for Zay Jones.  What an idiot!

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Doug was not a complete failure as a GM but he also wasn't good enough.

 

As for the point of the question - was he under more pressure to win and win instantly? Yes. He undeniably was when compared to this regime. The Bills were trying to be attractive to new owners and then they were trying to make a splash when the new owners arrived. The splashy hiring of Rex (which was not a Whaley move) and the splurge in FA of 2015 (which was contrary to every other FA in the Nix/Whaley era and was almost certainty at Rex's request) it was all about winning quickly.

 

Brandon Beane may well prove to be a superior GM to Doug Whaley. Just confirmation that he hit on Josh Allen would be enough to end that argument. But it is beyond question that he has been given the time and space to recast this roster in his image of a successful NFL team without the pressure of needing immediate results. The playoffs last year bought them some more time, for sure, but Beane has said at the podium many times that his pitch to the Pegulas in his interview was "it will take me 2 years to clear things up before I can start properly on the rebuild." Terry and Kim were so fed up of splashy by that point that patience and process sold well. I prefer that approach too. Hopefully it pays dividends.

The 2014 9-7 Whaley team would have curb stomped each of this regime’s teams.  They were a QB away from a SB team.  

[Buftex]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 8:29 PM, Mango said:

 

 

There was a stat out there that Doug Whaley HS more players starting on NFL rosters than any GM in the NFL that were drafted during his tenure.

 

His biggest whiff was EJ. His biggest blunder was forcing him down our throats.  Not allowing him to hire his own coach sort of hamstrung his “process”.

 

All things considered, I think he was an above average GM. Not the best but not bad either. He had a good eye for pro scouting. Made some good trades as well. We won the Shady and Hughes trade, hands down. I do know this team is better with Darby, Glenn, and Dareus on the roster. 

 

Im still unsure if Beane is better or worse to date. 

Huh? How exactly did Whaley "force" EJ Manuel down our throats?  Manuel, a first round draft pick QB (who was drafted by his predecessor) started 10 games his rookie season, and only 7 more games in the next 3 seasons.  I think you could make the argument that Manuel wasn't really given much of a chance at all.  I get it, Manuel wasn't very good, but if a franchise drafts a QB in the first round, you would think he would get a little more time...and a good GM would realize, you have to give him that chance.  Marrone, effectively, ended Manuels career after 11 starts...Whaley hardly pushed him down anybody's' throat.  

 

Rex Ryan was pretty much the defacto GM the minute he got hired.  Whaley wasn't really given a real shot to be a real GM.  There have been stories out there that Whaley, as pro personnel director of the Bills suggested Nix take Russell Wilson in 2012...and was in favor of drafting Mitch Trubisky during his last draft.  

[BillyWhiteShows]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know for a fact Whaley wanted Hue Jackson, so not speculation. It might have been even worse under Hue granted but Rex was not his choice. He obviously felt on some level he could work with Rex but Rex Ryan was not Doug Whaley's choice. He was Terry Pegula's. 

 

As for the FA point we immediately have a significant disagreement about the Mario deal. It was not a ridiculous contract. When you go and get the best pass rusher to hit the FA market in a number of years and a former #1 overall pick you better expect that to cost. If Clowney hits the FA market in a similar fashion this year he will get Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack money. He isn't as good as either (though he is a fine player) but that is FA. You want top talent at critical positions you overpay.

 

Mark Anderson - yep - I will give you him. That was a garbage deal. But when we look specifically at 2015 we need to look at where the money went:

Charles Clay (Greg Roman and Rex were both quoted as saying he was their target because of his fit in Roman's offense);

LeSean McCoy (they gave him a big new contract to keep him happy after he was traded here but that pretty much worked out);

Percy Harvin (Rex with the Jets was the only person stupid enough to rescue this overrated bum when Seattle tired of him and then as soon as Rex turned up here so, like a bad smell, did Percy Harvin). 

 

So two of the three guys we committed big money to in 2015 there are very clear lines of sight to Rex Ryan. 

 

Now if we are talking about them paying Hughes that year and paying Dareus that year (ie. keeping our own) you can pin that on Doug Whaley, no argument from me. The Dareus contract was a joint effort from Whaley and Overdorff and was obviously a bad one.

 

So you seem to confusing your speculation on what you think happened, and spinning it off as though it’s clear evidence. 

 

How do you know “for a fact” he wasn’t on board with Rex?  Because it’s never been reported as fact.  

 

Also, again, if your story is right, why did Doug willingly sign a new contract if his power as GM was being usurped?  

 

Seems to me that would be a huge red flag to any GM.  Big Reg over in Oakland was in that situation and knew it was not ideal, so he essentially left the organization.  

 

That’s why I don’t buy it.  I think Whaley was ok with the Rex hiring.  He may have completely supported it.  Also, at this point hiring Hue Jackson as HC is not looking like such a great idea hindsight.   He actually seems like a worse hire than Rex would be.  

 

I can admit, the circumstances Doug had were not ideal.  I think Russ Brandon’s involvement could have been problematic as well.  As I pointed out in the original post, I think Doug was under a lot of pressure to win, and as others pointed out, wasn’t give them time that Beane and McDermott were.  This is why he was so desperate.  

 

But I would also rate his run as “below average” and basically put him in the same category of effectiveness as Buddy Nix, which is not very good.  

 

There is a lot of revisionist history, by a small (but vocal) members of the fan base who feel he was wronged.   In their minds, it’s everyone else’s fault, Terry, Marrone Russ, Rex, Overdwarf, but not Doug.  Actually, Whaley should be “St. Doug” because of the devotion some fans have to defend him.    

 

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by BillyWhiteShows

[GunnerBill]

46 minutes ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

So you seem to confusing your speculation on what you think happened, and spinning it off as though it’s clear evidence. 

 

How do you know “for a fact” he wasn’t on board with Rex?  Because it’s never been reported as fact.  

 

Also, again, if your story is right, why did Doug willingly sign a new contract if his power as GM was being usurped?  

 

Seems to me that would be a huge red flag to any GM.  Big Reg over in Oakland was in that situation and knew it was not ideal, so he essentially left the organization.  

 

That’s why I don’t buy it.  I think Whaley was ok with the Rex hiring.  He may have completely supported it.  Also, at this point hiring Hue Jackson as HC is not looking like such a great idea hindsight.   He actually seems like a worse hire than Rex would be.  

 

I can admit, the circumstances Doug had were not ideal.  I think Russ Brandon’s involvement could have been problematic as well.  As I pointed out in the original post, I think Doug was under a lot of pressure to win, and as others pointed out, wasn’t give them time that Beane and McDermott were.  This is why he was so desperate.  

 

But I would also rate his run as “below average” and basically put him in the same category of effectiveness as Buddy Nix, which is not very good.  

 

There is a lot of revisionist history, by a small (but vocal) members of the fan base who feel he was wronged.   In their minds, it’s everyone else’s fault, Terry, Marrone Russ, Rex, Overdwarf, but not Doug.  Actually, Whaley should be “St. Doug” because of the devotion some fans have to defend him.    

 

 

 

I know because I know someone who was closely involved in the talks and who Doug Whaley himself told "Hue is our guy". Hue was so convinced he had been hired he had already had a telephone conversation with Jim Schwartz about staying on as DC. You can choose to disbelieve me if you like but this is not speculation. I said in my post if you read it properly both that Doug must have thought he was able to work with Rex on some level or else he would have quit. Rex was Pegula's choice but Doug Whaley obviously didn't feel so put out by it or else as you rightly say he'd have gone. He might have had Rex ranked 2nd on his list for all I know but what I do know is that his preferred candidate was Hue Jackson.

 

I also said in my post that given Hue's record in Cleveland that may well have been worse than Rex.

 

My point is not to defend Doug Whaley it is simply to give a better context to the question. 

 

And we agree he was put under pressure to win. The Pegulas were in splashy mode, just as they were when they took over the hockey team. If the totally flawed hire of Rex Ryan had one silver lining it was that his act got so tired that the Pegulas completely changed what they look for in their franchise leaders. It is evident in the Bills and in the Sabres for those of you who follow hockey (I don't). Process, patience and attention to detail wins. The owners realised that through the Rex mistake. 

[cba fan]

2 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

I completely disagree with what your measuring stick is for a successful pick.  You do realize that all GM’s draft players who turn out to average right?   There are a lot of Ross Crockrell’s, Kevon Seymour’s, or Seantrel Henderson’s.  That doesn’t mean a GM is anything special.

 

The good GM’s hit big on picks - Whaley never did this.  He ran 3 drafts as GM (not counting 2017 as he did not make the picks) and those three drafts are not exactly resume builders.

 

Doug is where he belongs....in the XFL.

I agree with what you are saying here. Except the XFL comment.

 

the OP measuring stick was quality starter. Not hit big on picks.

All we listed are "*arguably" that.

 

*Anyone who starts in my book is a quality starter. As it is very difficult to rise up in your position to start any games in NFL based on "merit" only and not a case where starter is injured and others fill in.

 

All these guys are/were starters and had risen to the top of their respective positions.

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by cba fan

[BillyWhiteShows]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know because I know someone who was closely involved in the talks and who Doug Whaley himself told "Hue is our guy". Hue was so convinced he had been hired he had already had a telephone conversation with Jim Schwartz about staying on as DC. You can choose to disbelieve me if you like but this is not speculation. I said in my post if you read it properly both that Doug must have thought he was able to work with Rex on some level or else he would have quit. Rex was Pegula's choice but Doug Whaley obviously didn't feel so put out by it or else as you rightly say he'd have gone. He might have had Rex ranked 2nd on his list for all I know but what I do know is that his preferred candidate was Hue Jackson.

 

I also said in my post that given Hue's record in Cleveland that may well have been worse than Rex.

 

My point is not to defend Doug Whaley it is simply to give a better context to the question. 

 

And we agree he was put under pressure to win. The Pegulas were in splashy mode, just as they were when they took over the hockey team. If the totally flawed hire of Rex Ryan had one silver lining it was that his act got so tired that the Pegulas completely changed what they look for in their franchise leaders. It is evident in the Bills and in the Sabres for those of you who follow hockey (I don't). Process, patience and attention to detail wins. The owners realised that through the Rex mistake. 

 

Ok I can agree with you here. 

3 hours ago, Mango said:

 

 

I mean, the likely scenario is Whaley advocated for Watson. McD said "no, we are holding off on grabbing a QB high until I see what we can do with TT. I need a better zone corner, especially after losing our CB 1 in Gilmore. Get me a guy"

 

 

 

So now we’re writing fan fiction?

[CookieG]

On 1/1/2019 at 7:01 PM, BillyWhiteShows said:

Listening to the Brandon Beane press conference this morning, I caught Beane indirectly insult Whaley and the previous administration.  He first took a shot at Whaley’s cap management and said that by breaking to bank to be aggressive in Free Agency you end up in a bad situation like the Bills used to have.  This was a direct shot at Whaley’s aggressive approach in Free Agency.  

 

 

Not too sure a GM who took a team's offense from 10th in scoring to 30th in scoring should really be taking shots at another GM, whether directly or indirectly.

 

 

[BillyWhiteShows]

On 1/2/2019 at 12:45 AM, Protocal69 said:

Oh how people really forgot. When Nix/Whaley took over we probability had the worst roster in the league ,to the point where head coaching candidates did not even want to interview for the position. Whaley was aggressive to bring in talent. It did not work out but I respect it. The only thing that I didnt like was how he did Fred Jackson at the end. Definitely would not have hurt for him to go out the same way Kyle Williams did .

 

BTW way it could be said that the roster that Beane/McDermott inherited was so good that even after they got rid of everyone and added a couple of pieces to fit the scheme it was still good enough to make the playoffs and only lost by a score 

 

“Some Bills fans love to rewrite history”

 

BillyWhiteShows

7 minutes ago, CookieG said:

Not too sure a GM who took a team's offense from 10th in scoring to 30th in scoring should really be taking shots at another GM, whether directly or indirectly.

 

 

 

Context is king my friend.

[BillsFan1988]

18 hours ago, T master said:

 

I agree Whaley when paired with McD had a great draft & i think if he would have had someone like that prior to McD's hiring as a HC he would have done much better & had a number of better players drafted by him to show for his time ! 

 

But given that every HC that got hired while he was the GM had such a different plan & the Pegs swinging for the fences with the Rex hire i think helped to put Whaley in a spot where the pressure was a lot more than normal then you add Brandon in the mix & that was a terrible addition to what was going on !! 

 

Whaley was a wheeler dealer & if paired with others that could have given him a better path due to him being a rookie GM i think he could do a much better job than he did but the incompetence that surrounded him didn't help him or the Bills at all especially when it came to writing contracts thank goodness for Bean in that department !!

The thing is Beane is already on track with the bad contracts.

 

5yrs 55mil Star 

3yrs 21mil Murphy

1yr 5mil Vontae

 

With the resources Beane had to work with last offseason looks like he didnt do a great job at all with the money.

 

[Scott7975]

Typical.  All the Whaley supporters... all the good picks and signings were all Doug Whaley.  All the bad picks and signings were all Nix/Rex/Brandon/Overdorf.

 

 

[Rico]

4 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Typical.  All the Whaley supporters... all the good picks and signings were all Doug Whaley.  All the bad picks and signings were all Nix/Rex/Brandon/Overdorf.

 

 

They were a team.

[stuvian]

I think Whaley did as well as he could have in the absence of a cohesive philosophy on how to build a team. When you change coaches as often as you change socks there is no player type that you draft for because your organization is always in crisis. 

[BillyWhiteShows]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Typical.  All the Whaley supporters... all the good picks and signings were all Doug Whaley.  All the bad picks and signings were all Nix/Rex/Brandon/Overdorf.

 

 

 

Absolutely.  Right out of the Whaley supporter playbook

1 hour ago, stuvian said:

I think Whaley did as well as he could have in the absence of a cohesive philosophy on how to build a team. When you change coaches as often as you change socks there is no player type that you draft for because your organization is always in crisis. 

 

So Whaley had no idea how to build a team?  Right I agree.  He’s where he belongs....in the XFL 

[Rico]

5 minutes ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

 

So Whaley had no idea how to build a team?  Right I agree.  He’s where he belongs....in the XFL 

That's not going to last with Vince McMahon. Judging by his press conferences, Whaley couldn't cut a promo to save his life.

[BillyWhiteShows]

3 hours ago, Rico said:

They were a team.

 

Reporter:  Doug, who chose the toppings for that pizza?

 

Doug:  I think of it like this, it was a Buffalo Bills pick

Edited January 5, 2019 by BillyWhiteShows

[oldmanfan]

Different GMs, different philosophies.   No less, no more.   Doug thought he was close so he was aggressive.  Beane didn't see that and felt he needs to build his way.  Each can work, each can fail.

[JaCrispy]

On 1/1/2019 at 8:35 PM, CaptnCoke11 said:

Gonna be lots of pissy people here when he doesn’t blow all the cap on free agents 

Can’t start breaking the bank until the team proves it’s a winner...then you go all in.