VADC Bills Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 If I remember correctly Overdorf was managing the salary cap during the Whaley era. I think Beane will need to build a winning team before he takes any shots at anyone else. Whaley's scouting team managed the draft. If McD made the picks it was from Whaley's scouting data. 1
BillyWhiteShows Posted January 2, 2019 Author Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, VADC Bills said: If I remember correctly Overdorf was managing the salary cap during the Whaley era. I think Beane will need to build a winning team before he takes any shots at anyone else. Whaley's scouting team managed the draft. If McD made the picks it was from Whaley's scouting data. Right, but McDermott made the picks...not Whaley. Also if you want to credit Whaley for the picks, you also have to fault him for not taking Mahomes or Watson. Add that to Whaley’s resume.
Straight Hucklebuck Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 2 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said: It makes you wonder how much pressure Whaley was to win and the effect that the change in ownswrship (or potential change in ownership) had on the decisions made. This is a great topic, thank you for presenting. I think with Whaley you have to trace his time with the organization back to the beginning. Whaley was brought in as the Assistant GM under Buddy Nix in 2010, at the handoff point of power from Ralph to Russ. Nix was 70 years old and so fans knew Whaley was being groomed for the job. Nix was GM for the 2010, 2011 and 2012 seasons. I think his chief failure was allowing the defense to switch back and forth from a 4-3 to a 3-4 to a hybrid, back a 4-3. Gailey chose weak defensive coordinators and the Bills blew all over the road on scheme. He also didn’t look for a QB. He started Trent and when that failed two games in, he promoted Trent Edward’s backup and stuck with him for all three years. So fast forward to 2013. Gailey is fired, and the HC search begins with Nix, Brandon, Overdorf (this is important for later) and Russ. Five whole days out in Arizona. Marrone was a Russ hire, and they came beating the Marrone’s a New Yorker drum. At this point the Bills have no Quarterback because Nix was caught on tape bashing Fitzpatrick in the prank call with the Bucs GM. So here the trap is set. The Bills got nothing out of the 2010 Draft (Modrak), the 2011 Draft produced Dareus and remember Williams was started at corner for his first two years and was awful/hurt, and 2012 yielded Gilmore and Glenn. Not much in the Draft, no Quarterback. So I think Nix was phased out and Whaley was thrust out of training and into the contrasting role of fresh, new, young GM. And with his first move he immediately over-drafted a marginal college QB. That move immediately backfired, EJ was not good. And so he went all in on EJ. Trading up, drafting Sammy, Karlos Williams, spending money. I think the key in all of this was Whaley didn’t have the whole scope/vision of what a GM had to do. First he was never the face of the franchise, Russ was, then Marrone. He didn’t pick any of the three coaches (Gailey, Marrone or Rex - Pegula’s fell in love with him). I don’t think the upper management ever really gave him 100% control of the organization on the football side. Two, in those days Overdorf managed all the contracts, Whaley had no say in any of that. He didn’t know the in and out. Whaley existed in the final days of the Ralph Wilson dysfunction with Littman, Russ, Berchold, Overdorf, and then new ownership came in and he was forced down another peg. Three, his best trait was what he studied in Pittsburgh - Pro Personnel. Which leads to Free Agency. Whaley struggled with the Draft because he was saddled with a failure at QB from 2010 on. 1 1
Ol Dirty B Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Buffalo86 said: I think there's plenty of evidence that Whaley was incompetent. A few examples: Lobbying for EJ to start in 2016, before we were eliminated from the playoffs Trading up for Sammy Watkins, then saying there wasn't much of a difference in how they ranked Sammy compared to other first round WRs Trading a 2014 5th to the Bucs for a 2014 7th + a 2015 5th. Small potatoes, but it was horrible value. Seriously, what is the point of a move like that? "Stealing" Charles Clay away from the Dolphins. We'll be paying $4.5mm this year for him to not be here $13.6mm we paid for Dareus not to be here in 2018 Rex Ryan: "National Brand", "finding the person you're going to marry", "completing each other's sentences". Many will say that Doug didn't want Rex. If that's true, I'd say he went way beyond the company line with all that nonsense. Also, the once popular argument that Doug really wanted Hue Jackson doesn't sound so good anymore I mean almost none of this is accurate. 1) He wanted EJ to start because Tyrod was hurt, and didnt want the contract to become guaranteed because of an injury. The Pegulas agreed with him, and Rex was fired for it. Which ties into your point 6. Which is also some alternative form of history. Whaley didn't want Rex. This getting married quote I'm quite sure you have confused with what Spiller said in several interviews when he wanted an extension. 2) Source it. 3) You don't even have a point and you know it, but it's just something to complain about. 4) Pretty sure he's going to be paid because of restructuring. The concept he executed to get Clay wasn't a bad idea at all. However, Clay just hasn't held up. The player is bad, the tactics were not. 5) That was Beane and McDermotts decision. I refuted 6 already, for someone who posts on a teams messageboard your lack of knowledge on them is pretty surprising. I think I can find a way where the Clay signing was bad, but you even botched that point. Oh yea, and they were eliminated from the playoffs in 2016 when EJ started. You've constructed your own reality completely. Edited January 2, 2019 by Ol Dirty B
Nihilarian Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 3 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said: or just purely clueless how to build a team long term. YES! The guy made mistake after mistake attempting to correct his first mistake. The guy was nothing more then Russ Brandon's yes man and a good quality defensive scout. Then consider two first round draft picks on a WR when the team didn't have their franchise QB yet. He drafted Watkins in an attempt to help his poor choice at QB. Buffalo Bills were at #4 they should have drafted Khalil Mack and Whaley being a decent defensive scout didn't see this... and didn't the talent in next ten plus players in that draft after Watkins who were all better choices. My favorite part of that 2014 draft was after the Bills drafted Watkins the FO stated that they were still looking for that big, tall red zone target receiver. Mike Evans, hello? So many mistakes, he drafted a rookie QB only to not have a QB coach, no veteran QB on the roster and put him behind a pretty bad O line with Legursky, Pears, Urbik. Actually Chris Williams was brought in for (Williams signed a four-year, $13.5 million contract with the Buffalo Bills. The deal includes $5.5 million in guaranteed money) to play LG and he lasted a whole 3 games after an injury, which was stated as an excuse because the guy couldn't block at all. BTW, a lot of the trades that Whaley was noted for were started by other teams. The Colts GM Ryan Grigson wanted Bill Polian's last first round draft pick off the team so he traded Jerry Hughes for Kelvin Shepard. Grigson initiated the call to Buffalo to offer that trade and at least Whaley was smart enough to take it. Same with LeSean McCoy as Chip Kelly wanted Shady out of Philly and traded him for Kiko Alonso. Also, it was Rex Ryan who wanted to bring in Tyrod Taylor, Richie Incognito. There is a real reason as to why Doug Whaley is no longer an NFL GM. 1
IgotBILLStopay Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 I think, when considered separately, each of whaley’s decisions were not horrible in the near term. The main issue i had (some of it 20 20, I admit) was the lack of vision that ties player personnel, their ability to play cohesively together and the coaching philosophy into a viable long term strategic outlook. 1
BillsVet Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 Every GM in the NFL is under pressure and it was no different in Buffalo by the end of 2016. He was fast and loose with resources, had internal battles with 2 HCs, missed on the QB, foolishly traded up for a WR in a draft featuring several good ones, and mismanaged the cap. For these and other reasons, his tenure as Bills GM has resulted in him not having a gig with a NFL team for 2018 to present day. That's not a coincidence.
gobills1212 Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) This sounds like the start of a national treasure sequel. Deciphering codes from McBene pressers to find Whaley tied up in a eqpt room somewhere at OBD. Not sure its much of a treasure, but for whatever its worth hed know how to spend it! Edited January 2, 2019 by gobills1212 1
Ol Dirty B Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: YES! The guy made mistake after mistake attempting to correct his first mistake. The guy was nothing more then Russ Brandon's yes man and a good quality defensive scout. Then consider two first round draft picks on a WR when the team didn't have their franchise QB yet. He drafted Watkins in an attempt to help his poor choice at QB. Buffalo Bills were at #4 they should have drafted Khalil Mack and Whaley being a decent defensive scout didn't see this... and didn't the talent in next ten plus players in that draft after Watkins who were all better choices. My favorite part of that 2014 draft was after the Bills drafted Watkins the FO stated that they were still looking for that big, tall red zone target receiver. Mike Evans, hello? So many mistakes, he drafted a rookie QB only to not have a QB coach, no veteran QB on the roster and put him behind a pretty bad O line with Legursky, Pears, Urbik. Actually Chris Williams was brought in for (Williams signed a four-year, $13.5 million contract with the Buffalo Bills. The deal includes $5.5 million in guaranteed money) to play LG and he lasted a whole 3 games after an injury, which was stated as an excuse because the guy couldn't block at all. BTW, a lot of the trades that Whaley was noted for were started by other teams. The Colts GM Ryan Grigson wanted Bill Polian's last first round draft pick off the team so he traded Jerry Hughes for Kelvin Shepard. Grigson initiated the call to Buffalo to offer that trade and at least Whaley was smart enough to take it. Same with LeSean McCoy as Chip Kelly wanted Shady out of Philly and traded him for Kiko Alonso. Also, it was Rex Ryan who wanted to bring in Tyrod Taylor, Richie Incognito. There is a real reason as to why Doug Whaley is no longer an NFL GM. Where did you see that reported about Jerry Hughes? I'm honestly curious. Even so, he pulled the trigger on the trade and won it. Why are we even having this debate anymore. The guy got fired. The people who didnt like them got what they wanted. Let's move on already. I do think Beane talking about 50 mil in dead cap and you have to do something about it is ridiculous though. They made the decisions to have that dead cap money. They created it. And saying you have to do something about dead cap is ridiculous because you cant do anything about it, hence dead cap. I really dont mind McDermott or Beane that much until they open their mouths. Then the scent of arrogance pours over the room. Edited January 2, 2019 by Ol Dirty B 1
Protocal69 Posted January 2, 2019 Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) Oh how people really forgot. When Nix/Whaley took over we probability had the worst roster in the league ,to the point where head coaching candidates did not even want to interview for the position. Whaley was aggressive to bring in talent. It did not work out but I respect it. The only thing that I didnt like was how he did Fred Jackson at the end. Definitely would not have hurt for him to go out the same way Kyle Williams did . BTW way it could be said that the roster that Beane/McDermott inherited was so good that even after they got rid of everyone and added a couple of pieces to fit the scheme it was still good enough to make the playoffs and only lost by a score Edited January 2, 2019 by Protocal69 2 1
T master Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/1/2019 at 8:18 PM, Flip Johnson said: Whaley was never in lockstep with the head coach. Everyone in that time period (Nix, Gailey, Whaley, Marrone, Rex) was under enormous pressure to break the drought but without a comprehensive plan or philosophical agreement within the organization. His shortsightedness was really self-protection - he didn't have time to be patient so he started throwing hail marys. I agree Whaley when paired with McD had a great draft & i think if he would have had someone like that prior to McD's hiring as a HC he would have done much better & had a number of better players drafted by him to show for his time ! But given that every HC that got hired while he was the GM had such a different plan & the Pegs swinging for the fences with the Rex hire i think helped to put Whaley in a spot where the pressure was a lot more than normal then you add Brandon in the mix & that was a terrible addition to what was going on !! Whaley was a wheeler dealer & if paired with others that could have given him a better path due to him being a rookie GM i think he could do a much better job than he did but the incompetence that surrounded him didn't help him or the Bills at all especially when it came to writing contracts thank goodness for Bean in that department !!
CommonCents Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 Whaley drafts starters right off the bus. Beane has a lot to live up too.
May Day 10 Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 Brandon and Whaley were under a lot of pressure. Both with middling results, despite long tenures/involvement, as well as "proving" themselves to new ownership. The Watkins trade and the other trade ups, Clay signing, etc were a direct results of flailing around trying to save their hides. I hope that Beane and McDermott feel comfortable right now (I think they do). They need to continue to do everything the right way with the long-view on the mind. Now if the team stays in neutral or takes a step back in 2019, GM and HC need to be re-evaluated in the offseason.... but I really believe they are locked in until halfway through 2020 at a minimum.
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 Doug was not a complete failure as a GM but he also wasn't good enough. As for the point of the question - was he under more pressure to win and win instantly? Yes. He undeniably was when compared to this regime. The Bills were trying to be attractive to new owners and then they were trying to make a splash when the new owners arrived. The splashy hiring of Rex (which was not a Whaley move) and the splurge in FA of 2015 (which was contrary to every other FA in the Nix/Whaley era and was almost certainty at Rex's request) it was all about winning quickly. Brandon Beane may well prove to be a superior GM to Doug Whaley. Just confirmation that he hit on Josh Allen would be enough to end that argument. But it is beyond question that he has been given the time and space to recast this roster in his image of a successful NFL team without the pressure of needing immediate results. The playoffs last year bought them some more time, for sure, but Beane has said at the podium many times that his pitch to the Pegulas in his interview was "it will take me 2 years to clear things up before I can start properly on the rebuild." Terry and Kim were so fed up of splashy by that point that patience and process sold well. I prefer that approach too. Hopefully it pays dividends.
BillsFan1988 Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) Its pretty obvious that Whaley never had true power running this team. He never got to hire the coach he wanted. Rex was a bad fit for the type of players we had. It seemed like there was to many cooks in the kitchen and no real organizational structure. Remember when we fired Rex the Pegulas held a press conference turning over full control of the organization to Whaley only for him to be fired 4 months later. I believe Whaley is a good GM and deserves another chance like Rick Speilman got in Minnesota. Edited January 4, 2019 by BillsFan1988
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, BillsFan1988 said: I believe Whaley is a good GM and deserves another chance like Rick Speilman got in Minnesota. Spielman was fired in Miami after 1 year because they wanted Saban and he wanted personnel control. It isn't quite the same.
Steve O Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 The statement he took the most criticism for may be true and eventually bring an end to football as we know it (if it hasn't already) "...It's a violent game that I personally don't think humans are supposed to play..." https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/5/24/11761090/bills-gm-doug-whaley-injuries-football-humans-quote
Mango Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 On 1/1/2019 at 11:31 PM, BillyWhiteShows said: Right, but McDermott made the picks...not Whaley. Also if you want to credit Whaley for the picks, you also have to fault him for not taking Mahomes or Watson. Add that to Whaley’s resume. I mean, the likely scenario is Whaley advocated for Watson. McD said "no, we are holding off on grabbing a QB high until I see what we can do with TT. I need a better zone corner, especially after losing our CB 1 in Gilmore. Get me a guy"
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 His QB purgatory comment was the one that got me. You can move up or down in the draft. Most of the teams picking 1 or 2 over the past few years have traded there.
cba fan Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) On 1/1/2019 at 8:45 PM, Mango said: I took this as quality starters in the NFL: Tre White Dion Dawkins Matt Milano Karlos Williams- Karlos messed that one up. Ron Darby Robert Woods Marquis Goodwin Kiko Alonso Preston Brown Ross Cockrell- PFF grades him well --------------------------------------------------------- Shaq Lawson Reggie Ragland Zay Jones Nigel Bradham Dustin Hopkins --------------------------------------------------------- Honorable mention: Seantrel Henderson Kevon Seymour I would add those 7 also. Reggie starts and is a two down run stopper. Shaq is effectively a starter now. Jones is effective now and flashes 2 td games which puts him in quality but of course not consistent quality. Cockrell was a Rex stupid error letting him go. He has graded out good ever since. Seantrel started 28 of 35 career games and Texans had him penciled in as starter after impressive preseason then he was injured and IR'd after first game this year. K Seymour played in all 16 games in 2017 and was effectively the starting nickel back. Then was starting until injury in preseason this year. Edited January 4, 2019 by cba fan
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