Bills fire OL Coach Juan Castillo

[Socal-805]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The Bills had a decent offensive line in 2015-2016, especially the latter, with Kromer as coach.  You don't have the #2 rushing attack in attempts but #1 in yards without having a good line, especially with McCoy as your feature back - he's a guy that needs an OL and he was ripping off 5.4 ypc, a career high for him.  The OL could have provided better pass protection, but a lot of the time the problem there was Taylor either taking too long, or flushing out of the pocket instead of stepping up into the passing lanes that were there.

 

I spent way too much time watching the Bills run plays on all-22 this year, and a lot of the time the problem was confusion.  And frankly, while it's not definitive, with Castillo as the OL coach, the Ravens OL had the same problem, and appeared better before and after.  If Castillo had lost Glenn all season, Wood, and Cog his first year, I would have been yeah, it's the personnel.

 

I'm personally much more interested in focusing on what the current regime does than in trying to rehash or debate OL for the Bills entire history, but Ballard-Hull-Richter-Wolford was a pretty good OL and mid-70s was pretty good, too.  With due respect, I think you're still salty over the last 20 years, and it's coloring your view.

 

My concerns about the current regime are that I felt more could have been done to improve the line in FA last year.  They knew Wood had to retire about a year ago today.  They knew they were drafting a rookie QB.  The list of guys available had some better guys on it than Bodine, some of whom signed for contracts we could have managed (Pouncey, for example, signed for 2 yr $15M with the Chargers and had a cap hit of $6.2M last year.  He played 16 games for the Chargers.).  Heck, we could have signed him and Bodine also.  Paradis signed with the Broncos for $2.9M.  The point is, folks here (and Beane, for that matter) act as though we couldn't possibly have done more due to salary cap.  No, you didn't do more because for some misbegotten reason you thought with Groy and Bodine you had done enough; it wasn't a priority.

 

That's the point that concerns me, he says it's a priority now, but what's his talent evaluation on OL really like?

 

+ 1

 

They HAD to have felt the O_line was going to be much better - And it wasn't.  Take away Woods and Cog and plug in these guys?  Not good IMO.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think you helped make my point more clearly than I did, Hap.  

 

McDermott naturally has a better eye for defense than offense.  All HCs lean one way or the other, obviously.  My concern (as you stated better than I tried to) is that neither Beane (and his team) NOR McDermott has an eye for evaluating talent for key positions on offense.

 

Like you, I hope it was just part of the "process," and they consciously focused on the defense this year/getting their QB - even though it was a pretty risky plan.

 

I guess we shall see.

 

Oh, OK, I thought your point was that McDernott was driving the decision making process and said "let's go after these players on O and D"

 

I don't think that's happening, though I do think they're probably collaborative.  In fact, I think Beane pitched McDermott a couple of curve balls in trading Dareus when they did and possibly in trading Sammy.  I think that because of body language and verbal interaction during last year's end of season presser; I think McDermott was in the loop and signed off after Beane made his pitch, but knew it was going to impact the team.

 

It's not unnatural for a GM to have a better eye for talent on one vs the other side of the ball, but they need to realize it and deliberately work to strengthen those skills on the other side of their staff. 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The Bills had a decent offensive line in 2015-2016, especially the latter, with Kromer as coach.  You don't have the #2 rushing attack in attempts but #1 in yards without having a good line, especially with McCoy as your feature back - he's a guy that needs an OL and he was ripping off 5.4 ypc, a career high for him.  The OL could have provided better pass protection, but a lot of the time the problem there was Taylor either taking too long, or flushing out of the pocket instead of stepping up into the passing lanes that were there.

 

I spent way too much time watching the Bills run plays on all-22 this year, and a lot of the time the problem was confusion.  And frankly, while it's not definitive, with Castillo as the OL coach, the Ravens OL had the same problem, and appeared better before and after.  If Castillo had lost Glenn all season, Wood, and Cog his first year, I would have been yeah, it's the personnel.

 

I'm personally much more interested in focusing on what the current regime does than in trying to rehash or debate OL for the Bills entire history, but Ballard-Hull-Richter-Wolford was a pretty good OL and mid-70s was pretty good, too.  With due respect, I think you're still salty over the last 20 years, and it's coloring your view.

 

My concerns about the current regime are that I felt more could have been done to improve the line in FA last year.  They knew Wood had to retire about a year ago today.  They knew they were drafting a rookie QB.  The list of guys available had some better guys on it than Bodine, some of whom signed for contracts we could have managed (Pouncey, for example, signed for 2 yr $15M with the Chargers and had a cap hit of $6.2M last year.  He played 16 games for the Chargers.).  Heck, we could have signed him and Bodine also.  Paradis signed with the Broncos for $2.9M.  The point is, folks here (and Beane, for that matter) act as though we couldn't possibly have done more due to salary cap.  No, you didn't do more because for some misbegotten reason you thought with Groy and Bodine you had done enough; it wasn't a priority.

 

That's the point that concerns me, he says it's a priority now, but what's his talent evaluation on OL really like?

You are correct. I am rather salty from the last 2 decades. That said, the fact that the Bills had decent lines in the late 80s and mid 70s fails to soothe me. How about you?

 

Those rushing stats you quoted are admittedly impressive, except for the fact that it is a passing league. Additionally (imo of course) some of those yards were due to Tyrod being a gifted runner. I think that a different qb would also have been sacked more often. Despite this, I suppose I would rate the 2015-2016 OL you cite as perhaps a tad better than average. It was better than we have now but there were holes HBF.

 

Bills Fans are not accustomed to rooting for a team that blocks very well. Some can be seen now actually clamoring for a 1st round corner in 2019. Until the Bills devote major resources to blocking, they will continue to lose.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, Socal-805 said:

+ 1

They HAD to have felt the O_line was going to be much better - And it wasn't.  Take away Woods and Cog and plug in these guys?  Not good IMO.

 

Maybe that's one reason Castillo is gone.  Maybe he had a larger voice than we know in picking the FA acquisitions (as I think he had with Ducasse) and when it wasn't good, they were kind of like "we gave you the rope, you hung, you're gone".  I don't know.  Castillo is said to be very particular about technique and perhaps he grades guys on how well they fit his notion of good technique, vs how effective they are at actually road-grading the opposition.

[JimS]

4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

The narrative with Glenn will be they "needed" to trade him to move up in the draft to get Allen.... like there was no other way possible to move up in the draft. ?

 

I never liked that trade. I would've rather they traded a future pick to move up to get Allen rather than an established, GOOD NFL left tackle. 

 

I believe the bigger narrative was his lack of an ability to stay on the field. 

[nucci]

48 minutes ago, Misterbluesky said:

It's only been a few days and we already got better for the '19 season.

Not by much...still need a Center, 2 Gs and a Tackle

[stevewin]

51 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

What I'm afraid of is it's really Beane and his team and their player personnel evaluation on offense just sucks or is MIA - like, did they really watch Benjamin or have a couple scouts not from CAR watch Benjamin's routes and effort and grade him out, or was it "I know him, former 1st rounder, let's get'er done"?  did they really watch Coleman and network with contacts inside the Browns facility to get the gouge on him, or was it "former first rounder, bring him in, we'll pay $3.5M for a chance to evaluate him once he's here"

I was thinking the exact same thing recently.  Some of the moves, while you could say they took a swing and missed, are pretty brutal considering there is a whole pro personnel department dedicated to that task.  KB is esp. bizarre - you would think they would have had some ears/eyes within the Carolina org that would have been able to give a no bull assessment of his effort/attitude - you would think they should have had even more info than other teams in that respect.  And Coleman - the whole league had to be full of inside buzz/info on what he was about.  Add Pryor to the list as well.

[Nihilarian]

14 minutes ago, JimS said:

 

I believe the bigger narrative was his lack of an ability to stay on the field. 

Also, when you look at what Glenn was being paid vs Dion Dawkins who did very well when Glenn went out with an injury it made the former expendable. Plus, Glenn started looking down before Incognito got there so was he really worth 12 mill per, a top ten paid LT and a guy who has never made the pro bowl?

 

I didn't mind trading Glenn. What I did mind was not replacing Woods, Incognito adequately. 

[wiskibreth]

1 minute ago, stevewin said:

I was thinking the exact same thing recently.  Some of the moves, while you could say they took a swing and missed, are pretty brutal considering there is a whole pro personnel department dedicated to that task.  KB is esp. bizarre - you would think they would have had some ears/eyes within the Carolina org that would have been able to give a no bull assessment of his effort/attitude - you would think they should have had even more info than other teams in that respect.  And Coleman - the whole league had to be full of inside buzz/info on what he was about.  Add Pryor to the list as well.

While i agree with your thinking here, you have to remember that the other side is playing against you.  If Carolina wanted to "unload" Benjamin for some comp., then they probably wouldn't be exactly forthright with the inside skinny on him at the time.  For the most part, Benjamin performed for Carolina.  Coleman, and Pryor cost essentially nothing.  How many times have we seen the Patriots take a swing on "iffy" players based on talent upside, and didn't quite work out?

2 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Also, when you look at what Glenn was being paid vs Dion Dawkins who did very well when Glenn went out with an injury it made the former expendable. Plus, Glenn started looking down before Incognito got there so was he really worth 12 mill per, a top ten paid LT and a guy who has never made the pro bowl?

 

I didn't mind trading Glenn. What I did mind was not replacing Woods, Incognito adequately. 

And guess who didn't finish the season this year?..  Glenn missed the last 3 games I think with a Back injury.

[stevewin]

5 minutes ago, wiskibreth said:

While i agree with your thinking here, you have to remember that the other side is playing against you.  If Carolina wanted to "unload" Benjamin for some comp., then they probably wouldn't be exactly forthright with the inside skinny on him at the time.  For the most part, Benjamin performed for Carolina.  Coleman, and Pryor cost essentially nothing.  How many times have we seen the Patriots take a swing on "iffy" players based on talent upside, and didn't quite work out?

Yeah - in the KB case I was mostly thinking of just friendly connections they might still have in the building not necessarily affiliated with the coaching staff or management - equipment guys, secretaries, ball boys etc etc - just people they might have known (friends essentially) who might have been observers on what was going on in the building in an unofficial sense.

Edited January 2, 2019 by stevewin

[wiskibreth]

1 minute ago, stevewin said:

Yeah - in the KB case I was mostly thinking of just friendly connections they might still have in the building not necessarily affiliated with the coaching staff or management - equipment guys, secretaries, ball boys etc etc - just people they knew who might have been observers on what was going on in the building in an unofficial sense.

yeah, I hear you.  I'm just thinking If it was me, and I worked for the team (towel boy, cleat scrubber, whatever), I'd rather keep my mouth shut than tamper with a trade and jeopardize my job.

[Misterbluesky]

19 minutes ago, nucci said:

Not by much...still need a Center, 2 Gs and a Tackle

I'm fine with Teller.

[nucci]

1 minute ago, Misterbluesky said:

I'm fine with Teller.

He hasn't had a chance to show much but I'm sure they can do better...he wasn't that impressive but he can improve

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

He hasn't had a chance to show much but I'm sure they can do better...he wasn't that impressive but he can improve

 

And even if you like him (or Boettger for that matter), this team has too long operated under the assumption that unproven guys will be solid starters.  They need to approach things as though they don't know what they have.

 

I'd rather have too many players at guard than too few.

[Bill from NYC]

24 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Also, when you look at what Glenn was being paid vs Dion Dawkins who did very well when Glenn went out with an injury it made the former expendable. Plus, Glenn started looking down before Incognito got there so was he really worth 12 mill per, a top ten paid LT and a guy who has never made the pro bowl?

 

I didn't mind trading Glenn. What I did mind was not replacing Woods, Incognito adequately. 

You raise an excellent point wrt the salary issue. Absolutely!!! It is still unusual for a team (other than the Bills) to trade away a good Left Tackle.

We have Mills/Dawkins rather than Glenn/Dawkins.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He did do pretty well, but he was in-between 'Cog and Miller in Kromer's scheme.  Different scheme, different guards, expect different result.  And I think if one looked carefully it was clear he was not a natural center.

Yes, I agree.  I am not saying they couldn't have done better.  I was just thinking of a reason why they really didn't do much to address the line.  To me, like probably you and others too, its pretty baffling.  It was the only thing I could come up with for the center position.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Rex hire was the kind of thing a rich sports fan who watches ESPN does. I think he came to realise that it isn't flashy and loud that wins in this league it is methodical and detailed.

The Rex hire demonstrated that being a billionaire success in one field of endeavor doesn't automatically carry over to success in another field of endeavor. I don't care how little he knew about the pro football game that shouldn't be an excuse to make a bonehead hire of a fraud who just got fired from his last football job. How about exercising some common sense? The new owner had the ability to access anyone in the business and get some feedback on how to go about in his new business. There was no excuse for this stupendous foolishness. It set this franchise back in years. It seems that the owner learned from his mistakes. I'm happy and relieved about that. 

[TPS]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

You are correct. I am rather salty from the last 2 decades. That said, the fact that the Bills had decent lines in the late 80s and mid 70s fails to soothe me. How about you?

 

Those rushing stats you quoted are admittedly impressive, except for the fact that it is a passing league. Additionally (imo of course) some of those yards were due to Tyrod being a gifted runner. I think that a different qb would also have been sacked more often. Despite this, I suppose I would rate the 2015-2016 OL you cite as perhaps a tad better than average. It was better than we have now but there were holes HBF.

 

Bills Fans are not accustomed to rooting for a team that blocks very well. Some can be seen now actually clamoring for a 1st round corner in 2019. Until the Bills devote major resources to blocking, they will continue to lose.

You’ve been hammering this point since this site started, and you’re right. Currently they lack both talent and coaching, and I trust that will soon change given the firing. 

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

It's not unnatural for a GM to have a better eye for talent on one vs the other side of the ball, but they need to realize it and deliberately work to strengthen those skills on the other side of their staff. 

 

Bingo.  My hope (and current belief) is that Beane isn't so arrogant as to think he can build this team without some proven subject matter experts on his staff.  

 

I will say that, since he's been GM, I've never been so excited about the draft/FA period, as well as potential trades.  I think he's very good at his job.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Also, when you look at what Glenn was being paid vs Dion Dawkins who did very well when Glenn went out with an injury it made the former expendable. Plus, Glenn started looking down before Incognito got there so was he really worth 12 mill per, a top ten paid LT and a guy who has never made the pro bowl?

 

I didn't mind trading Glenn. What I did mind was not replacing Woods, Incognito adequately. 

 

It only made Glenn expendable if you look at starting Glenn/Dawkins as a "zero sum game" at LT.

If you look at it as "Dawkins has shown NFL starting potential, maybe we can move Dawkins to RT as an upgrade to Mills and find a new swing tackle backup", then no, doesn't make sense.

 

Pro bowl? c'mon man, that's a popularity contest and heavily stacked against guys from teams that are non-contenders.  Should not be a factor in anyone assessing his quality.

 

I think a good way to think about it is, the overall trifecta of moves on the OL were a problem.  Perhaps if we kept the more experienced LT, a lesser LG would have served better and losing 'Cog would have been less of a hole.  Though it's not an argument I'll keep up with - bottom line, I think everyone agrees the OL was not good enough.