Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 GMs always think that 1st round top 10 LT is going to help turn things around for the QB and the offense. Pick one: Joe Thomas had a "HOF career" on a team that churned through QBs and on an O-line that stunk every year he was there (they passed on Adrian Peterson, as did Arizona...for "Levi Brown"--they could have had Joe Staley AND AP!!). how did Joe T help that team? I bet AP would have been more help to any and all of those QBs. Jake Long to the Dolphins instead of Matt Ryan. How has that worked out? Flowers in NYG--awful offense (got worse over past 2 years). Miami has taken 2 1st rounders the past 4 years. They stink. Erik Fisher? Luke Joeckel?--taken 1 and 2 in the same draft. Trent Williams and Okung in the top 6 same draft. Russell Wilson has been struggling behind horrible O-lines since he arrived in Seattle. etc. Get Josh some playmakers. TE/WR/RB. Pick up some LT.
NewEra Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: GMs always think that 1st round top 10 LT is going to help turn things around for the QB and the offense. Pick one: Joe Thomas had a "HOF career" on a team that churned through QBs and on an O-line that stunk every year he was there (they passed on Adrian Peterson, as did Arizona...for "Levi Brown"--they could have had Joe Staley AND AP!!). how did Joe T help that team? I bet AP would have been more help to any and all of those QBs. Jake Long to the Dolphins instead of Matt Ryan. How has that worked out? Flowers in NYG--awful offense (got worse over past 2 years). Miami has taken 2 1st rounders the past 4 years. They stink. Erik Fisher? Luke Joeckel?--taken 1 and 2 in the same draft. Trent Williams and Okung in the top 6 same draft. Russell Wilson has been struggling behind horrible O-lines since he arrived in Seattle. etc. Get Josh some playmakers. TE/WR/RB. Pick up some LT. I wouldn’t say “pick up some LT”, then we end up with Jordan Mills playing LT, but I do agree, we need playmakers and guys that can CATCH THE DAM BALL over OL. OL is next on the priority list though because our running game is putrid minus our scrambling qb. Adding playmakers will help our running game as the defenses wont be able to focus on it as much, but building a good OL WILL help him, there is no doubt
Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, NewEra said: I wouldn’t say “pick up some LT”, then we end up with Jordan Mills playing LT, but I do agree, we need playmakers and guys that can CATCH THE DAM BALL over OL. OL is next on the priority list though because our running game is putrid minus our scrambling qb. Adding playmakers will help our running game as the defenses wont be able to focus on it as much, but building a good OL WILL help him, there is no doubt My point is that LTs aren't value drafts at that price point. Who but the Bills should know this best? Look at their 2 best LTs in years--one was an undrafted TE and the other a second rounder. The Bills need WRs, they are desperate for a good TE (they have the worst roster in the NFL), and their RB roster is suspect, old and indifferent at this point. A top 10 LT changes nothing--history has proven this over and over...
Logic Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 50 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Skill players will help Allen. Pass or trade down. You must have missed out putrid run game and all the times Allen was running for his life this year. #17 won't have time to get the ball TO the new targets if he doesn't get some legitimate protection up front. Nor will our run game ever exit the doldrums of the NFL. Playmakers are needed, yes. But I would say that simply upgrading the offensive line -- even if the Bills kept Foster, Zay, and McKenzie as their top three receivers -- would provide a massive upgrade to our offense and improve the effectiveness of both Allen and McCoy. OL > skill players all day. 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: My point is that LTs aren't value drafts at that price point. Who but the Bills should know this best? Look at their 2 best LTs in years--one was an undrafted TE and the other a second rounder. The Bills need WRs, they are desperate for a good TE (they have the worst roster in the NFL), and their RB roster is suspect, old and indifferent at this point. A top 10 LT changes nothing--history has proven this over and over... If you really want to play the "value draft picks" game, let's look at the recent success rate of first round receivers. Corey Davis John Ross Corey Coleman Will Fuller Josh Doctson Laquon Treadwell Kevin White Devante Parker Philip Dorsett Should I keep going? While first round LTs haven't been sure things recently either, the hit rate at that position is superior to the recent hit rate at WR. 1
WideRightRevenge Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 Sorry but having flashbacks/nightmares to our last Alabama OL drafted ... if we go with Williams hopefully he can deliver vs. his alumni. 2014 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Cyrus Kouandjio Strengths: Powerful run-blocker Great length Huge bulk Strong and nasty in the ground game Athletic for a big blocker Gets push in the ground game Strong hands Quickness Mobility to hit blocks on the perimeter Gets to blocks on the second level Can anchor against bull rushes Experienced against elite competition Strength for man scheme Mobility for zone scheme Upside Great length (33 1/8" arms) Scheme versatile Read more at http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2014ckouandjio.php#E63AKwtT4wdffEj5.99 1
JohnC Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: My point is that LTs aren't value drafts at that price point. Who but the Bills should know this best? Look at their 2 best LTs in years--one was an undrafted TE and the other a second rounder. The Bills need WRs, they are desperate for a good TE (they have the worst roster in the NFL), and their RB roster is suspect, old and indifferent at this point. A top 10 LT changes nothing--history has proven this over and over... Did you watch our line play this year? Our running game was often non-existent because there were no lanes to run. With better blocking you get better protection and a running game that enhances the passing game. You portray the position issue as being mutually exclusive. It's not. You can upgrade the OL and still add playmakers. Our line is an obvious point of weakness that reverberates throughout the offense. Upgrade it and you do a lot to put the qb in a position to succeed.
Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Logic said: You must have missed out putrid run game and all the times Allen was running for his life this year. #17 won't have time to get the ball TO the new targets if he doesn't get some legitimate protection up front. Nor will our run game ever exit the doldrums of the NFL. Playmakers are needed, yes. But I would say that simply upgrading the offensive line -- even if the Bills kept Foster, Zay, and McKenzie as their top three receivers -- would provide a massive upgrade to our offense and improve the effectiveness of both Allen and McCoy. OL > skill players all day. I just saw Allen run (forward) for 95 yards and 2 TDs, while throwing for 3 more. The O-line can be upgraded, no one is arguing it shouldn't be. But it won't be noticeably better by sticking a rookie top 10 LT in there. Teams seem to think this is true year after year, but it's obviously not true. Pick up a T in the second or 3rd or FA. The #9 pick has value. Trade down for more picks. Edited January 1, 2019 by Mr. WEO
billspro Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 16 hours ago, Cheesus said: I'll pass on offensive lineman from Alabama , especially tackles. Alabama PLAYER TEAM POSITION Jonathan Allen Washington Redskins Defensive End Ryan Anderson Washington Redskins Linebacker Anthony Averett Baltimore Ravens Cornerback Mark Barron Los Angeles Rams Linebacker Bradley Bozeman Baltimore Ravens Center Tony Brown Green Bay Packers Cornerback James Carpenter New York Jets Guard Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Washington Redskins Safety Landon Collins New York Giants Safety Amari Cooper Dallas Cowboys Wide Receiver Marcell Dareus Jacksonville Jaguars Defensive Tackle Gehrig Dieter Kansas City Chiefs Wide Receiver Kenyan Drake Miami Dolphins Running Back Rashaan Evans Tennessee Titans Linebacker Minkah Fitzpatrick Miami Dolphins Safety D.J. Fluker Seattle Seahawks Guard Reuben Foster Washington Redskins Linebacker Robert Foster Buffalo Bills Wide Receiver Shaun Dion Hamilton Washington Redskins Linebacker Da'Shawn Hand Detroit Lions Defensive End Ronnie Harrison Jacksonville Jaguars Safety Derrick Henry Tennessee Titans Running Back Dont'a Hightower New England Patriots Linebacker O.J. Howard Tampa Bay Buccaneers Tight End Marlon Humphrey Baltimore Ravens Cornerback Mark Ingram II New Orleans Saints Running Back Kareem Jackson Houston Texans Safety Eddie Jackson Chicago Bears Safety Julio Jones Atlanta Falcons Wide Receiver Cyrus Jones Baltimore Ravens Cornerback Ryan Kelly Indianapolis Colts Center Dre Kirkpatrick Cincinnati Bengals Cornerback Arie Kouandjio Washington Redskins Guard AJ McCarron Oakland Raiders Quarterback C.J. Mosley Baltimore Ravens Linebacker Daron Payne Washington Redskins Defensive Tackle Reggie Ragland Kansas City Chiefs Linebacker Jarran Reed Seattle Seahawks Defensive Tackle Calvin Ridley Atlanta Falcons Wide Receiver A'Shawn Robinson Detroit Lions Defensive Tackle Cam Robinson Jacksonville Jaguars Offensive Tackle Bo Scarbrough Seattle Seahawks Running Back JK Scott Green Bay Packers Punter Cam Sims Washington Redskins Wide Receiver Andre Smith Cincinnati Bengals Offensive Tackle Damion Square Los Angeles Chargers Nose Tackle Carson Tinker Jacksonville Jaguars Long Snapper Dalvin Tomlinson New York Giants Defensive Tackle Levi Wallace Buffalo Bills Cornerback Chance Warmack Philadelphia Eagles Guard Tim Williams Baltimore Ravens Linebacker T.J. Yeldon Jacksonville Jaguars Running Back I’m not a huge fan of Alabama oline either. If he is not an elite pass blocker I don’t want him top ten. 1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said: Well honestly I will say this, if Brian Daboll thinks he's elite and is the guy, I will support it wholeheartedly. I basically stating my opinion on the guy based on what I have seen and read. But I assume Daboll knows a hell of a lot more than me as a guy with intimate knowledge of the guy. I still won't like it, but I'd support it 100%. I just don't think the difference between Dawkins and Williams is big enough to use a top ten pick. I think Dawkins is fine and gets a bad rap here. He's been up and down at time, but he's a young player who needs to find consistency in his game. Good point, Daboll should know if he is elite or not.
MrEpsYtown Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 One other thing about Jonah Williams, if you make him a center, I think he could be the best in league. He's a technician with good feet, extremely smart with great intangibles. I'd be interesting in making him our offensive line anchor for the next ten years paired up with Josh Allen. He'd be an elite center imo.
JohnC Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, WideRightRevenge said: Sorry but having flashbacks/nightmares to our last Alabama OL drafted ... if we go with Williams hopefully he can deliver vs. his alumni. 2014 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Cyrus Kouandjio Strengths: Powerful run-blocker Great length Huge bulk Strong and nasty in the ground game Athletic for a big blocker Gets push in the ground game Strong hands Quickness Mobility to hit blocks on the perimeter Gets to blocks on the second level Can anchor against bull rushes Experienced against elite competition Strength for man scheme Mobility for zone scheme Upside Great length (33 1/8" arms) Scheme versatile Read more at http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2014ckouandjio.php#E63AKwtT4wdffEj5.99 Jonah Williams may be the most versatile and technically sound lineman in this draft. The scouting report that you posted is one of many that existed. Many of the others indicated that he had slow feet which is a disqualifying attribute to have for the pros. In college you can outsize and out-muscle the opposition. That doesn't work in the pros.
Logic Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I just saw Allen run (forward) for 95 yards and 2 TDs, while throwing for 3 more. The O-line can be upgraded, no one is arguing it shouldn't be. But it won't be noticeably better by sticking a rookie top 10 LT in there. Teams seem to think this is true year after year, but it's obviously not true. Pick up a T in the second or 3rd or FA. The #9 pick has value. Trade down for more picks. It IS true in some instances that 1st round rookie offensive linemen make teams noticeably better. Quenton Nelson and Ryan Kelly (both 1st round o-linemen) upgraded the Colts o-line massively and helped keep Luck upright and pave the way to the playoffs. Zack Martin upgraded the Cowboys line tremendously. Playoffs. If you want to limit it to offensive tackles only, Taylor Lewan and Jack Conklin for Tennessee. Playoffs. Eric Fisher for the Chiefs. Etc, etc. I'm fine with trading down and accumulating more picks if that's what they want to do. But pretending that it's not possible to significantly upgrade your offensive line by drafting a first round linemen is silly. Edited January 1, 2019 by Logic
TroutDog Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 My son graduated from UA last month. He walked the stage with Hurts and Williams. The latter is a MOUNTAIN of a man and was rock solid during his career against top level talent. I hope we get him!
GunnerBill Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: And that's all I'm saying. I don't want a solid long term starter, who might not be a left tackle, in the top ten. I'm sorry, that's just no way to draft. I only differ from you in that I would be okay with it. It isn't be any means my preferred approach but I think if you get a guy in the top 10 who ends up solidifying the left hand side of your line for 7 or 8 years I can live with that. And I think he and Dion together would. Whichever one of them ended up at LG would likely end up top 10 in the league there, whichever one ends up at LT you are likely looking at as a league average or just above level starter. That to me isn't the worst use of a top 10 pick. I'd prefer it to any of the receivers in this class who to me all have holes. My preference is take an a top end pass rusher (either a DE or a real penetrative DT) at #9 or trade back a few spots and then you are getting some value for your receiver. Which of those is my #1 option will depend on who is on the board at that stage. Staying at #9 and taking Jonah is kind of my third option. 1
ChanticleerBillsFan Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) If you look at starting lineman across the league they are found throughout the draft. All rounds. We need lineman and will have a better idea after FA. Lineman are tough to figure out translating to thr league and there have been countless top ten bust of recent memory. Gotta go BPA even if it’s a CB Edited January 1, 2019 by ChanticleerBillsFan
GunnerBill Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I only differ from you in that I would be okay with it. It isn't be any means my preferred approach but I think if you get a guy in the top 10 who ends up solidifying the left hand side of your line for 7 or 8 years I can live with that. And I think he and Dion together would. Whichever one of them ended up at LG would likely end up top 10 in the league there, whichever one ends up at LT you are likely looking at as a league average or just above level starter. That to me isn't the worst use of a top 10 pick. I'd prefer it to any of the receivers in this class who to me all have holes. My preference is take an a top end pass rusher (either a DE or a real penetrative DT) at #9 or trade back a few spots and then you are getting some value for your receiver. Which of those is my #1 option will depend on who is on the board at that stage. Staying at #9 and taking Jonah is kind of my third option. Should also add my preferred way of attacking the line is FA. Sign Quinton Spain at LG, leave Dawkins at LT, sign one of the top 3 centers (Paradis, Morse or Easton) and re-sign Jordan Mills if he comes cheap. I would then look for a right tackle later in the draft to compete with Mills. Mills is not great and I don't want him starting next year... but believe me it is possible to get much worse at that spot if we move on from him before we have a replacement in house. I would rather spend my money on Spain and a centre and use the draft to upgrade RT. 2
MAJBobby Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Skill players will help Allen. Pass or trade down. So doesn’t a legit OL. See Dak Prescott and Luck reemergence this year.
yungmack Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 The old adage is, "Build a team from the inside out, front to back. " Those two rules intersect at the Center. That's the first position you have to get right. I believe a great deal of the O-line's problems this year had to do with inferior center play, which spilled over to the guards, which affected the tackles, yada yada yada. So upgrading there is Job One as I see it. Problem is, it's rare a rookie makes a huge impact right off the bat at Center so the Bills would have to be prepared to live with a learning curve. The alternative is to sign a FA center. In any case, a better than average Center is crucial.
Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Logic said: It IS true in some instances that 1st round rookie offensive linemen make teams noticeably better. Quenton Nelson and Ryan Kelly (both 1st round o-linemen) upgraded the Colts o-line massively and helped keep Luck upright and pave the way to the playoffs. Zack Martin upgraded the Cowboys line tremendously. Playoffs. If you want to limit it to offensive tackles only, Taylor Lewan and Jack Conklin for Tennessee. Playoffs. Eric Fisher for the Chiefs. Etc, etc. I'm fine with trading down and accumulating more picks if that's what they want to do. But pretending that it's not possible to significantly upgrade your offensive line by drafting a first round linemen is silly. For Lewan's first 2 seasons, the Titans were 5-27. Add Conklin and they became a perennial 9-7 team. They are not a playoff team currently. Their offense stinks. Solid D though. They, like the Bills, have a single playoff appearance in the past 10 years. The Colts were 11-5 the first 3 seasons with Luck, and he took more than 40 sacks only twice in his career. Sure they were an upgrade, but the Colts get in the playoffs because Luck is back and healthy, after taking a year plus to heal. The Cowboys got back to being a playoff caliber team after they drafted Prescott. They are in the playoffs because their D doesn't let opponents score many points. Their offense is mediocre in yards and points (22nd). Fisher? Nah...the Chiefs fortunes turned around when they dumped Romeo Crennel for Reid and Picked up Alex Smith. Fisher is along for the ride. And talk about a team that is stacked with playmakers---I don't think Fisher plays much of a role in that turnaround, to put it mildly. 1 hour ago, MAJBobby said: So doesn’t a legit OL. See Dak Prescott and Luck reemergence this year. Prescott had better numbers as a rookie 2 years ago. His output is always mediocre as far as passing goes.
BuffaloBill Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 19 hours ago, KD in CA said: I'd be very happy with a top OT, but is 300 on the small size for a tackle in this era? This is what I was thinking. Though it is hard to think of a 300 pound man as “small.”
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