BringBackOrton Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 1 hour ago, KD in CA said: Of course......pro football owners would much rather have crappy teams than compete for championships with a black guy on the sidelines! Writing checks for 48 black guys on the team is cool. It's when they have to pay that 49th black guy who is a coach. 1
whatdrought Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, see, here's the challenging thing and I'll say it once and then STFU and ya'll can go on and run with it. Everyone has their preconceptions. Everyone tends to be most comfortable with people who fit their preconceptions, people who strike them as "someone like me". Having been in a position to interview and to make decisions about hiring people, and having seen decisions above me being made, I can say that overt discrimination "I don't think she can do the job because, woman" or "I don't think he can handle it, because, black" is very rare nowadays. What happens is that guys in hiring positions have their ideas, maybe unstated or unspoken ideas about what different people are like, maybe based on their own narrow experience. One guy, a senior VP at my place of employment at the time, once told me he was very surprised to see the results of a study that said the women on averae tested scored higher on organizational skills and ability to multitask because his wife couldn't manage either. His perception (maybe unstated to himself) was that men are better at those skills. Just naturally and without any intent at conscious bias, he was going to carry that perception into his hiring and assignment processes. The Rooney rule, and other affirmative action strategies, exist not because minorities can't win the job on their own merit, but because in an "old boys club" atmosphere, they will NOT be "gift wrapped interviews" and given the opportunities that guys who fit the preconceptions and comfort level of people doing the hiring. I don't like them because I view it as too little, too late. And if they result in people being hired, but not being given the same support and opportunities that others get, they're misguided. But that's why they exist. You definitely make some good points. But I don’t think that rules change implicit bias. If an owner refuses to hire black coaches, and his team sucks, then he’ll learn or lose. (And face a lot of backlash.) the problem with affirmative action is that a negative doesn’t fix a negative. Instead of correcting racism by saying “we are going to judge everything by merit.” We said “we’re going to fix racism by being racist in the other direction.” It’s still racism, even if it’s well intentioned. If a coach isn’t worthy of an interview, then he shouldn’t be interviewed. Regardless of his race. If an academic isn’t worthy of admission into Harvard (by pre-set standards) then he shouldn’t be admitted. Regardless of his race. The only fairness is to remove race entirely from the equation and let the free exchange of ideas, and the free market determine who should or should not be employed. The problem with this original post is that skin color was mentioned at all. Bad coaches were fired. Some were kept. Race doesn’t factor in. 1
Trogdor Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, BillyWhiteShows said: Jim Trotter has been very outspoken on the issue. Here is his 2 cents on the Rooney rule. Again I do see his point: 2017-18 there were an all time high of 6 minority GMs and now 4. There are currently only 2 minority head coaches. The coaches in particular are generally prior players. Again in a league that is a majority black. Not all of it is race related, but it's a bad look for a league with a shoddy history of minority hiring.
PlayoffsPlease Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BillyWhiteShows said: I didn’t take his original opinion as race baiting in any way. I appreciated how he shares the topic. My main takeaway was that he wishes his race was better represented at the head coach position in the NFL. I get what he’s saying As a percentage of the population, it is represented proportionately. Not sure why it should be disproportionate. There are zero asian HC;s and like two hispanic coaches (Flores and Riveria) in the history of the league. Edited January 1, 2019 by PlayoffsPlease
SinceThe70s Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 16 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said: Right. I read it but just don’t believe that coaches getting fired is because of skin color. I just don’t. And, I’ll say again, if someone feels an owner or GM is racists, they should come out and say that, not speak in general terms. Totally agree. The debate over whether there's a hiring issue has more legs. Bringing up firings cheapens that debate IMO.
klos63 Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, Watkins90 said: Marvin Lewis coaches for 16 years in one place. Hue Jackson got a third season after going 1-31. Case closed. So you can give 2 instances to support your argument , so it's case closed. If Burleson or someone else gives 2 instances to support the other side, now what? Case reopened? Cleveland was a mess of an organization , and in Cinci, Lewis was a fairly successful coach, made the playoffs 5 years in a row at one point. Wasn't the greatest coach, but his teams had success.
Augie Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 2 hours ago, LABillzFan said: If it were really about race, then why would the owners have hired them in the first place? I dig ya, Nate, but think first, then opine. Nate did himself no favors there. “It’s about football IQ”. Yes, that and wins. If you win, you stay employed.
Trogdor Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, whatdrought said: You definitely make some good points. But I don’t think that rules change implicit bias. If an owner refuses to hire black coaches, and his team sucks, then he’ll learn or lose. (And face a lot of backlash.) the problem with affirmative action is that a negative doesn’t fix a negative. Instead of correcting racism by saying “we are going to judge everything by merit.” We said “we’re going to fix racism by being racist in the other direction.” It’s still racism, even if it’s well intentioned. If a coach isn’t worthy of an interview, then he shouldn’t be interviewed. Regardless of his race. If an academic isn’t worthy of admission into Harvard (by pre-set standards) then he shouldn’t be admitted. Regardless of his race. The only fairness is to remove race entirely from the equation and let the free exchange of ideas, and the free market determine who should or should not be employed. The problem with this original post is that skin color was mentioned at all. Bad coaches were fired. Some were kept. Race doesn’t factor in. Was Vance Joseph really a bad coach or hampered by poor Elway decisions? His team seemed to outplay their talent at times. Is Wilks really that bad or was he saddled with the worst Oline in history? People around here preach continuity and that it takes time, but so few think that that's wrong?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said: Sure it’s rare.....but I’m not in the building and I’m sure white coaches have been canned after a year as well. My whole point is that is race involved? I doubt it but then again, I don’t know for sure. What I do know is these guys that got fired were also hired. I’m just not buying that an owner of a billion dollar franchise wouldn’t want what is best for their team. I will get out the tea and cucumber sandwiches to entertain your recent examples of such. Hint: it's quite rare. First of all, it makes the person who did the hiring look like a fool. And if he's a fool, well, shouldn't he go too? Second of all, it's widely recognized that in football it takes time to turn things around. Everyone wants what is best for their team. The question is around how they perceive and evaluate this. 1
JoPar_v2 Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 Also worth noting: Wilks was in the midst of converting the defense to 4-3. Bidwill and Keim knew he would do this when they hired him; they also had damn well better known that that takes longer than one season to do. They canned him after one anyways. And people here are saying it’s the fired coaches who are “incompetent”? Sorry but that front office in Arizona smells pretty incompetent to me. 2
Trogdor Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said: As a percentage of the population, it is represented proportionately. Not sure why it should be disproportionate. There are zero asian HC;s and like two hispanic coaches (Flores and Riveria) in the history of the league. That only makes sense if the entire population is involved in the NFL. The NFL is a majority balck league, so White people are overrepresented. Hispanics are actually overrepresented as well.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 1 hour ago, whatdrought said: This is stupid. The rooney rule is the most racist thing about the NFL because it says that minorities can’t win the job on their own merit and need to be gift wrapped interviews. Besides, I don’t see Nate whining about the amount of black football players. What’s the statistic on that? Football is one of the most merit based businesses in the world because it’s all about winning. Latino and African Americans make up approximate 20% of the US. An accurate representstuon of that in the NFL would be 6 our of 32. There were least 8 and all of the minoriry coaches that were fired deserved it. This is a non-issue. I will admit that there are a lot of white coaches who need to be/should be fired. That doesn’t imply racism. This makes no sense at all. Football players are individually scouted and selected. It is completely (for the most part but there are some big exceptions) based on how good they are. Nfl coaching and front office positions are complete nepotism and buddy. How the hell does Brian Daboll keep getting jobs? He got into his position because he was friends with Polian’s son. He keeps getting jobs despite awful results (he is a head coaching candidate despite an awful offense haha!). the Wilkes thing is a joke. But I’m not shocked at all but how minded some Bills fans are here. Such a diverse group of open minded thinkers! Praise Jim Kelly as hero (Kelly playing day stories are so great and respectful) and hate guys like Stevie Johnson. Fun fact. If you see everything as racist, then maybe you’re the racist. However if you see nothing as racist, then maybe you’re the racist. Sean McDermott is basically Todd Bowles in a city with low self esteem. 1
BringBackOrton Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I will get out the tea and cucumber sandwiches to entertain your recent examples of such. Hint: it's quite rare. First of all, it makes the person who did the hiring look like a fool. And if he's a fool, well, shouldn't he go too? Second of all, it's widely recognized that in football it takes time to turn things around. Everyone wants what is best for their team. The question is around how they perceive and evaluate this. ??? I can think of two white coaches fired after a year within the last 3 years. 4 minutes ago, Trogdor said: That only makes sense if the entire population is involved in the NFL. The NFL is a majority balck league, so White people are overrepresented. Hispanics are actually overrepresented as well. When are we going to address this racial disparity? We need more Pacific Islanders playing CB. It's gross. 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: This makes no sense at all. Football players are individually scouted and selected. It is completely (for the most part but there are some big exceptions) based on how good they are. Nfl coaching and front office positions are complete nepotism and buddy. How the hell does Brian Daboll keep getting jobs? He got into his position because he was friends with Polian’s son. He keeps getting jobs despite awful results (he is a head coaching candidate despite an awful offense haha!). the Wilkes thing is a joke. But I’m not shocked at all but how minded some Bills fans are here. Such a diverse group of open minded thinkers! Praise Jim Kelly as hero (Kelly playing day stories are so great and respectful) and hate guys like Stevie Johnson. Fun fact. If you see everything as racist, then maybe you’re the racist. However if you see nothing as racist, then maybe you’re the racist. Sean McDermott is basically Todd Bowles in a city with low self esteem. "People who don't agree with me are close-minded" is the funniest take you've ever had. You're a real shooting star CB. Edited January 1, 2019 by BringBackOrton 1
PlayoffsPlease Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Trogdor said: That only makes sense if the entire population is involved in the NFL. The NFL is a majority balck league, so White people are overrepresented. Hispanics are actually overrepresented as well. What you are really saying is that some sort of racism is resulting in whites, hispanics and asians being under represented as players. Without racism, it is impossible that that one race would be so over represented versus the general population. The league should take immediate action to change this imbalance. At the same time it needs to address the absurd sexism problem. Until 50% of coaches and players are women, it is clear that there is a huge huge problem. or maybe in a league where winning is everything teams just get the people they think are the most talented players and coaches.
whatdrought Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Trogdor said: Was Vance Joseph really a bad coach or hampered by poor Elway decisions? His team seemed to outplay their talent at times. Is Wilks really that bad or was he saddled with the worst Oline in history? People around here preach continuity and that it takes time, but so few think that that's wrong? I think Joseph was a bad coach who never should have gotten a HC job. I think Wilkes probably had it bad, but the reports from there were that he was not good at being a HC. I think that the argument could be made for keeping Wilkes, but that he didn’t do anything to earn a second chance. Joseph probably was hampered by Elway but it seems like when I saw the Broncos play he usually made one or two dumb decisions. Also- on that note I definitely think Elway needs to be fired/retired before they team gets back on track. I’m for continuity and I don’t like a 1 and done model, but Wilkes’ team was horrific. There’s not a merit based argument to keep him, and appearently the continuity argument wasn’t enough.
Beast Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I will get out the tea and cucumber sandwiches to entertain your recent examples of such. Hint: it's quite rare. First of all, it makes the person who did the hiring look like a fool. And if he's a fool, well, shouldn't he go too? Second of all, it's widely recognized that in football it takes time to turn things around. Everyone wants what is best for their team. The question is around how they perceive and evaluate this. https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2018/12/31/arizona-cardinals-steve-wilks-list-nfl-coaches-fired-after-one-season/2449435002/ 1
Freddie's Dead Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 On the contrary, these coaches are being treated just like other coaches who don't win. I don't see that race is involved at all in any of these firings (said the guy who is whiter than Wonder Bread).
boyst Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 Maybe I've just not cared enough about the NFL in the last two years as it is losing me but I am amazed I did not realize or actively know Hugh Jackson and other certain coaches were a specific race. Tomlin, Lewis, Lynn, bowles were ones I knew. Anyway, ask this chump why there is not a starting CB In The league that's white. Or why there are 2, IIRC, starting RB's that are white. Then ask him if it matters. Because, it doesn't. 1 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Could it be that these coaches really didn’t know what they were doing? Hmmmm? Brian Daboll is a terrible OC who keeps getting big jobs. All people do here is defend him because he’s had bad qbs. Who were Wilkes and Joseph’s qbs? Who got them those QBs? Honestly, they might be bad coaches but to fire them after 1 year? 2
klos63 Posted January 1, 2019 Posted January 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said: Also worth noting: Wilks was in the midst of converting the defense to 4-3. Bidwill and Keim knew he would do this when they hired him; they also had damn well better known that that takes longer than one season to do. They canned him after one anyways. And people here are saying it’s the fired coaches who are “incompetent”? Sorry but that front office in Arizona smells pretty incompetent to me. Keim has a dui as GM, maybe you smell alcohol too.
Recommended Posts