Nate Burleson Speaks On The Firing Of African American Coaches

[Nextmanup]

There is no institution in America more color blind than the NFL.

 

They don't care if you're white, black, purple, a wife beater, dog killer, criminal, drug addict, blah blah blah....if you can get it done, you are rewarded richly with money and a good job in the NFL.

 

Those who can't get it done get fired, as usually pretty quickly. 

 

End of story.

 

 

[JoPar_v2]

4 minutes ago, Nervous Guy said:

Could be they were fired because the front office identified they made a mistake in the first place by hiring them...are they then incompetent?  Should you stick with someone you don't think can do the job they were hired for because it "doesn't look right"?  Mistakes happen, rush to hire, or slim pickin's can lead to the wrong hires.  What are the reactions from the players of these teams?  Are they upset or agree with management's decisions?  I can't believe there have been no player reactions.

 

That’s the other possibility with Wilks yes. Keim could have realized he picked the wrong guy (or Bidwill forced the pick on him, I doubt that though.) And maybe he realized it rather quickly and decided to course correct. Even if that’s the case though, it still suggests a bit of incompetence on Keim’s part too. Combined with his embarrassing arrest, that should have been more than enough reason for him to go too.

[uticaclub]

Marvin Lewis wasn’t given enough time. 

 

Hue Jackson should have had 1 more year in Cleveland

Edited January 1, 2019 by uticaclub

[stony]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

I don't think that the firings had anything to do with racism.  I also don't think that your post implies that you are a racist. In fact, I doubt that you are.

 

Having said that, I think that if I was black and somebody said I was "well spoken," I would be pissed off. It can be taken to imply (again, I'm NOT saying that you were) that I am an exception, even if it was meant as a compliment.

 

Honestly, I cannot remember the last white person that someone called "well spoken." 

It's not lost on players, either.  I follow the NBA pretty closely, and many players have noted this is a typical reaction from front offices after pre-draft visits, interviews etc.  It's obviously meant as a compliment, but it's not taken as one. 

[LSHMEAB]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Here's the thing though, Pixie.  Football players are evaluated by more or less objective metrics - the combine, film evaluated by scouts and coaches etc.

Even so, years ago Don Beebe implied he had faced skepticism about his physical abilities because of his race - he used to wear a shirt "White Flash".  But basically you could watch him run and see how fast he was, no arguments.

 

Football coaches, on the other hand, are hired by some combination of owners and GMs by criteria that are not too clear, but appear to involve to some extent who you know, and whether you've had experience as an OC or DC.  And whether you've had experience as an OC or DC typically depends upon who you know, cause all these guys hire their buddies.  If there were some kind of objective criterion for evaluating potential coaching candidates  - a coaching candidate combine - the analogy might make more sense.

Jason Sehorn famously wore long sleeves because he'd been dismissed as the white corner his entire career.

 

Bias can work both ways, but to act like it doesn't exist is to bury one's head in the sand. It's much more implicit than explicit and I don't think any of the coach's fired had done a good job. Then again, Burleson didn't say they had done a good job either. I'll leave it at that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

Incompetent for sure. Racist who knows? I doubt it. But people here are claiming these coaches were fired purely for incompetence, I am just saying, with respect to Arizona, there seems to be a lot of incompetence spread around and it doesn’t look too good to just can the coach.

 

This.

And also that given an outsider's look at the known plans the coach had coming in, and what the coach had to work with player-personnel wise, it doesn't look as though he were given enough time.

 

With the caveat that none of us knows what went on inside the building, and it's possible Wilks was clearly over his head.

[Gugny]

17 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I don't think that the firings had anything to do with racism.  I also don't think that your post implies that you are a racist. In fact, I doubt that you are.

 

Having said that, I think that if I was black and somebody said I was "well spoken," I would be pissed off. It can be taken to imply (again, I'm NOT saying that you were) that I am an exception, even if it was meant as a compliment.

 

Honestly, I cannot remember the last white person that someone called "well spoken." 

 

You're very articulate, Bill.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, Nervous Guy said:

Could be they were fired because the front office identified they made a mistake in the first place by hiring them...are they then incompetent?  Should you stick with someone you don't think can do the job they were hired for because it "doesn't look right"?  Mistakes happen, rush to hire, or slim pickin's can lead to the wrong hires.  What are the reactions from the players of these teams?  Are they upset or agree with management's decisions?  I can't believe there have been no player reactions.

 

I can write them for you right now.  Coach Wilks has my respect.  We need to execute as players.  Coach Wilks deserves better than we gave him this year.  He had not lost the locker room.  Coach Wilks gave it everything he had, every day.  I played hard for him.

AZ carefully timed the official announcement to take place after player media availability on locker clean out day, but nevertheless I found some.  How'd I do?

 

Edit: Larry Fitz on it

 

15 minutes ago, Gugny said:

You're very articulate, Bill.

 

But is he well-spoken?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

43 minutes ago, Gugny said:

He lost me at "vacancy's."

Stupid to bring up he fact that GMs remain employed, even though they're the ones who hired the coaches who are getting fired.  It's like that in every job, Nate.

Like many here, I like Nate Burleson.  Either someone got into his ear/got him all riled up, or he's simply not as smart as I thought he was.  I'm calling this one a mulligan, personally.

 

Oh, come, Gug, you know better.  The GM isn't always the one who hires the coach.  Sometimes the coach hires the GM - look at what likely happened here.

And very often in the NFL, the coach and GM's fate are tied together. 

 

In the case of AZ specifically, Bill Bidwell has a long rep as a meddlesome owner and is believed to have had decision-making over the hiring/firing of Wilks. Steve Keim was suspended after being convicted of "extreme DUI" (which IMO should be cause for incarceration on charges of attempted murder even if no one got hurt, much less dismissal), the OL sucked, and the vet QB the GM paid the big bucks to got benched then cut.

 

I wouldn't want to say you're not looking as smart as I thought you were here, but you're not looking too informed on this one, either.

 

[Bill from NYC]

14 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

You're very articulate, Bill.

Thanks but I'm not so sure.

I was hesitant to post a reply because I 100% don't want the OP to think I am calling him a racist. That is a horrible thing to do and an ugly political weapon, but I won't get into that here.

The OP obviously meant well and brought forth legit discussion. That is the best thing about this board.

[Albany,n.y.]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

In in the case of Wilkes - First year coaches that are let go are always a bad look, but it has happened numerous times over the years to coaches of both races - so Wilkes is not unique in any way.  I believe Arizona hired Wilkes with a specific plan in place.  The plan was to bring in a Veteran QB (ended up as Bradford) and that with the talent and a better defensive scheme they were supposed to compete in Fitzgerald’s last years.  I do not think that the FO though before the draft they had a real opportunity at one of the top 4 QBs and I think they were truly just looking to keep the team competitive and find ways to win with the talent they have where in their division they have been one of the top 2 teams for the last several years.

 

Rosen falling to them changed everything - now you have a young QB that got playing time and you want to develop- that changes the FO thinking and my guess is they want (like so many other teams) the young offensive mind to develop Rosen.  Wilkes was not hired to groom Rosen - Rosen came after the hire and I believe that is the sole reason Wilkes is gone - if the FO had believed they could have gotten a guy earlier - the entire plan for the offseason may have been different and an offensive coach hired and the team blown up to grow around the rookie.

 

Now I agree that is not fair to Wilkes, but I think it has to do with background (DC) not skin color.  I also believe that yes he did not have the talent to work with and maybe the GM should go also, but if you think the Rosen pick is right and the GM made the pick - maybe you let him see that through.

 

What we do not have any information on is exactly what the discussions and plan were between GM and Owner prior to the hiring of Wilkes, after they picked up Bradford, after they drafted Rosen, and after Rosen became the starter.  That all impacts the discussion and is the real reason why Wilkes is no longer the Head Coach and I do not think race had anything to do with it.

 

 

I can't agree on your QB premise that they weren't planning to draft a QB.  The Cardinals were actively planning to move up and get a top 4 rookie QB before & during the draft (Ironically, they loved Allen but it turned out they did not have the draft ammo to ace the Bills out of him once the Bills got ahead of them with the Glenn trade, and settled for Rosen).  The whole reason Bradford was signed was so the rookie would sit & learn behind him.  Sure they were hoping to be more competitive with the veteran while the rookie sat, but Wilkes was hired when they knew they wanted to draft a QB, so I can't buy that they would have hired an offensive minded coach.  You don't need a HC to come from the offensive side to develop a QB, all he has to do is hire the right OC & QB coaches.

 

My guess is that after Rosen, who was supposed to be the most NFL ready (remember, they wanted Allen who was supposed to be the least ready and would sit for a year if they got him) played so poorly, they blamed Wilkes and his offensive coach hires for Rosen's lack of development.

 

In the end I'm kinda in agreement as to why Wilkes got fired-they want someone to help Rosen's development.  However, I believe that it was more the result that Rosen wasn't progressing enough and management blamed Wilkes and the offensive coaches he hired rather than the idea that he was originally hired without the intention of getting a top 4 QB in the draft.  

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, come, Gug, you know better.  The GM isn't always the one who hires the coach.  Sometimes the coach hires the GM - look at what likely happened here.

And very often in the NFL, the coach and GM's fate are tied together.

 

In the case of AZ specifically, Steve Keim was suspended after being convicted of "extreme DUI" (which IMO should be cause for incarceration on charges of attempted murder even if no one got hurt, much less dismissal), the OL sucked, and the vet QB the GM paid the big bucks to got benched then cut.

 

I wouldn't want to say you're not looking as smart as I thought you were here, but you're not looking too informed on this one, either.

 

 

I guess my point is that it's silly to think that for every person fired, the person responsible for hiring them should be fired, too.

 

I think tying these firings to race is sad.  Yes - there are white coaches/GMs who many believe should have been fired.  There are headscratchers every year (Jeff Fisher, Marvin Lewis for many years); hell, not a HC, but how the hell does Danny Crossman survive three regimes??

 

And, to your earlier point, none of us is really informed on this topic - as we don't know what's going on/gone on behind closed doors.

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Thanks but I'm not so sure.

I was hesitant to post a reply because I 100% don't want the OP to think I am calling him a racist. That is a horrible thing to do and an ugly political weapon, but I won't get into that here.

The OP obviously meant well and brought forth legit discussion. That is the best thing about this board.

 

I think it was abundantly clear that it was not your intent to call anyone a racist; it's sad that there are so many out there who look for ways to spin a comment into that direction.

[bobobonators]

17 hours ago, wppete said:

Some people have to make everything about race. 

 

I dont lose any sleep over it. 

 

However, being completely objective, its a bit odd that the large majority of the league’s players are black and the large majority of the league’s GM’s, HC, OC, and DC are white. 

 

Is it racism? Im not sure it is. I think its more complex than that. 

 

Its clear in sports that the elite African American athletes tend to be faster and stronger than the elite athletes of other races. So in a sport like the NFL where speed and strength are literally measured and coveted it makes sense that the large majority of the players in the NFL will end up being african american. 

 

I cant, however, objectively explain the lack of african american coaches in the NFL or NCAA football programs.  Same thing when you look at the NBA - its an extremely disproportionate number of black coaches when one takes into account that the vast majority of players in the league are black. 

 

By their very nature, minorities are minorities because there are less of them in the general population. If I objectively look at it that way logic holds that there will be many more white candidates thank black candidates applying for these jobs so perhaps that ends up skewing the numbers in favor of more white coaches in these programs.

 

But that explanation doesnt completely satisfy my objectivity.  You figure that in a sport like football, where the college ranks are SATURATED with black players, and then the NFL is largely dominated by black players, that there would simply be more black coaches. But i dont have an adequate answer as to why it fails to translate.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I guess my point is that it's silly to think that for every person fired, the person responsible for hiring them should be fired, too.

 

I don't think anyone was trying to make that general point.  And certainly in Denver where he has the power, Generalissimo Elway is not gonna fire himself.

I could be wrong.  I thought the point was specifically AZ, where there are specific reasons to think there is at least as much cause to fire the GM as the coach.

 

12 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I think tying these firings to race is sad.

 

Again - I don't think that was exactly Burleson's point.  I think he was saying for whatever reason they were fired, right now most of the black HC in the league just got axed and he'd like to see more representation.  I think in most cases he acknowledged they had been given time (or maybe too much time - "outlier" Lewis).

 

12 minutes ago, Gugny said:

And, to your earlier point, none of us is really informed on this topic - as we don't know what's going on/gone on behind closed doors.

 

Very true.

 

12 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I think it was abundantly clear that it was not your intent to call anyone a racist; it's sad that there are so many out there who look for ways to spin a comment into that direction.

 

I think most in this thread have done a remarkably good job keeping it civil and having reasonable discussion on a potentially inflammatory topic, and avoiding that spin from either direction.

[JoPar_v2]

A little more insight into the Cardinals’ situation with Wilks from SB nation, if you’re interested:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.revengeofthebirds.com/platform/amp/2019/1/1/18163814/bidwill-and-keim-exposed-and-in-denial

[bmur66]

Nate. Wish in one hand. Crap in the other. See which one fills up first

[BuffAlone]

19 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

Others spoke about this issue as well.  It’s something to think about,  but please think before you respond.

 

 

 

 

Black people carry labor? Seriously? 

Are you trying to incite something here? 

What a crock of *****! You shouldn't be posting ***** like that here

[Southern Bills Fan]

the US population is approximately 55-60% white. Nobody ever demands that the players better represent “diversity”. Should we insist on more white players or Hispanic or Asian players? 

[BuffAlone]

1 minute ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

the US population is approximately 55-60% white. Nobody ever demands that the players better represent “diversity”. Should we insist on more white players or Hispanic or Asian players? 

Exactly. 70% African American athletes in the NFL. Is that racist? Or are they in some ways just better qualified? Hmm...

[GunnerBill]

1. 19 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I congratulate Burleson.   He states his point of view nicely, and he's entitled to his view of the situation.  

 

I don't know any of these situations nearly well enough, but people have to at least ask questions when black coaches are hired and fired in a year.   There's no way it's fair to expect a guy to turn things around in one year.  On the other hand, it may have been completely clear inside the clubhouse that he was in over his head.   It happens.   If he's over his head, there's a good chance he's drowning.   Under those circumstances sometimes you just have cut him loose and try to save the ship. 

 

Well said Shaw. I have questioned myself on this during the past few weeks, because the two circumstances he specifically talks about - Wilks and Joseph - are two guys I have been pretty vocal about in respect of my opinion that they should be fired. I'd have fired Joseph after 1 year in Denver and I'd have fired Wilks too. I watch a lot of football around the NFL and they are two coaches I see week after week making strange decisions and display strange body language on the sideline and then when I go and listen to their post-game and in week press conferences giving a real impression of being in over their heads. Now when I came to this realisation with Wilks I was conscious of the fact that I felt the same way a year earlier about Joseph and I asked myself - am I failing to respond positively to these coaches because maybe they and I have such different life experiences that what I feel is a right way to engage and behave and respond in situations is not the same for them. So not so much I am looking at a black man and going "oh he is black, he can't coach" but indirectly am I failing to respond because my norm and their norm are different. I do not work in a profession where I am a minority boss but the majority of my workforce are the same race as me. I have never experienced the scrutiny and pressure that it brings.

 

I can only remember having thought two other coaches in my time really paying very close attention to the NFL (so since 2004) should have been fired after year 1. Pat Schurmer in Cleveland and Rex Ryan here in Buffalo. Both got the Vance Joseph treatment of an extra year and a warning and both were eventually fired after year 2.

 

And so while I can't say definitively that I know I am being totally understanding of all the difficulties that Joseph and Wilks have faced I do come back to my overriding belief that they were both in over their heads based on what I saw on the field and heard at the podium.