Seventeen Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, jrober38 said: Allen is the same guy now as he was at Wyoming. Read a scouting report. It's all the stuff you see him do on a weekly basis. Guys like Allen never work out. So far he's done zero to change my opinion. He's the worst passer in the league in most categories and many of you are convinced he's the guy. I simply don't get it. He's a good athlete and he tries hard, but he leaves way too much to be desired as a passer. If the team produces points and wins games I'll be happy, but we're not doing that. Allen would be 6-4 as a starter had Clay not dropped the pass in Miami or Peterman screwed up the Houston game. Not too shabby for the toolbox he was handed. Edited December 30, 2018 by Looper
Straight Hucklebuck Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 Again, why are fans sold on Allen being the answer?
Dr.Sack Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 I’ll look to one statistic to check for Allen’s progression and that is completion percentage. They say the pro game is harder than college and the numbers bear that out, he’s gone from 56.2% in college to 51.7%. I never thought I’d say this about a QB but he needs to hit his checkdown more, while also getting the ball out faster as opposed to always trying to hit the homerun.
Straight Hucklebuck Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 4 hours ago, BananaB said: I wouldn’t compare any of those guys to Allen. All had a totally different highschool and college background. All have some of same attributes but none are even close to Allen’s level. I don’t think you can compare anybody to Allen. Kid is a prospect like no other. I do believe if we build an offensive line and get a few solid WRs we can win a lot of games with him with him. If he does improve on some of weaknesses along the way I think he can make this team great. How is Allen much different than Cardale Jones?
Success Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 5 hours ago, jrober38 said: Blake Bortles, EJ Manuel, Josh Freeman, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, etc, etc. Big, strong, mobile, big armed, bad quarterbacks. Not what I’ve seen. He is hardly all over the place with his throws. A poor receiving corps has hurt the “stats” - lots of drops, and can you point to even one great catch? I judge how guys play - not scouting reports. Allen could easily still be the best overall QB to come out of this draft. 12 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Again, why are fans sold on Allen being the answer? We haven’t had a QB like Allen for a very long time. Get the the man just one great receiver.
BananaB Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: How is Allen much different than Cardale Jones? Jones was surrounded by talent in highschool and college. Still couldn’t keep his job. Sure they are the same size, both have some mobility and a big arm but Allen has proven under some of the worst situations he can succeed. He did it in college and is now doing it in the NFL. Jones had a good start in college when two guys ahead of him got hurt. But proved over a short amount of time he struggled in the best situations. Probably why he was third on the depth chart to begin with and benched in his final year. Edited December 30, 2018 by BananaB
Scott7975 Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) Are there any QBs in the league that are successful with a receiver core that looks like this? Foster undrafted Bolden undrafted Thompson undrafted Scott undrafted Croom undrafted Logan Thomas 4th round pick McKenzie 5th round pick McCloud 6th round pick Zay Jones 2nd round pick We literally field a team of practice squad WRs. Most of these guys bounced around the league never having success before coming here. A couple of them were even cut from our own team before bringing them back during the season. I don't think many QBs would have much success fielding that team of targets. Put that together with one of the worst Olines in the league and a running game that outside of Allen was pretty much non existent. Yeah, yeah, yeah... QBs make the receiver. If that were true then teams like KC and Rams would not have gone out of their ways to surround their QBs with better receivers. Brady always plays worse without Edelman and Gronk. Edited December 30, 2018 by Scott7975 4
Ayjent Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Just realize this is Weak Sauce around here. If you want to say "I think Allen is better because I've watched Allen, Darnold, and Rosen and I think Allen looks better", you'll still be asked in what way your eyeballs think Allen looks better. But if you feel he's better in some quantifiable way, you really need to 'stand and deliver' and justify your take - or prepare to be (civilly) mocked and memed. I can and would if it was worth my time...my time is simply worth more than that. Mocked by people who can’t see the massive waste of effort in trying to cherry pick stats or justify their bias with articles? I’ve stood behind why I’ve changed my opinion on Josh and I’ll stand behind what I’ve said and seen. Can I look up a bunch of stats or go through play by play to demonstrate where excels compared to Darnold and Rosen? I can and capably. Do I want to? Not really. I’d rather help others with real struggles in life, make music, spend time with family, watch a movie, etc. For instance, Darnold and Rosen under pressure may have better passing stats but Allen has more big plays if you count ground yards and has extended plays much better when facing pressure - I know that will bear out statistically, but those aren’t easy stats to come about.
VW82 Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 FWIW ESPN Stats & Information claims that Allen's accuracy issues are actually getting worse which is surprising as it feels like he's been improving in that regard. Take it with a grain of salt and add it to the ever increasing pile. "Allen's rate of off-target throws, as charted by ESPN Stats & Information, has increased from 19.5 percent (seventh-most in the NFL) through Week 6 to 27.3 percent since Week 12, the league's highest rate." http://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/32766/teammates-see-progress-in-josh-allen-despite-stagnant-stats
GunnerBill Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 14 hours ago, thebandit27 said: So when Jacksonville finished top 5 in PPG last year with a team passer rating of 84, that was a figment of everyone's imagination? Or how about Baltimore scoring in the top 10 this year with an 84 rating? Nice way of dodging the question by the way I don't make a habit of helping out Spurs fans in their argument... but to me the response to this is consistency. Can you get to 10, 11 even 12 wins once or twice with a 58% passer with a sub 90 passer rating? Yes - you can. Can you build a consistent year on year contender that way in the modern NFL? To me the answer is no. Josh needs to make sure that at least one of those numbers is consistently high (60% + or 90+ passer rating) if he is going to have a career where he becomes a true franchise QB. Because over the long term I agree with jrober that those numbers do correlate with ppg and ultimately wins.
Billsfan1972 Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) So tired of this thread. some people obviously want to see the #7 Bills pick flame out, just so they ca pat themselves on the back. The eye test has seen significant improvement and cheering that with proper coaching and a competent offence around him we will see a very good qb. Edited December 30, 2018 by Billsfan1972
thebandit27 Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I don't make a habit of helping out Spurs fans in their argument... but to me the response to this is consistency. Can you get to 10, 11 even 12 wins once or twice with a 58% passer with a sub 90 passer rating? Yes - you can. Can you build a consistent year on year contender that way in the modern NFL? To me the answer is no. Josh needs to make sure that at least one of those numbers is consistently high (60% + or 90+ passer rating) if he is going to have a career where he becomes a true franchise QB. Because over the long term I agree with jrober that those numbers do correlate with ppg and ultimately wins. If his point were about seeking consistency, then I'd have accepted his argument. It wasn't. It was an arbitrary line drawn in the sand and set as a hit-it-or-he's-a-bust benchmark, which is silly. As you know, I admire folks like yourself that are willing to objectively evaluate Allen despite not liking him as a prospect. Just understand that you're a bit of a white elephant in that regard
Billsfan1972 Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) And by the way watching college football yesterday and the in the two semi-final games saw catches (or adjustments on passes) again by kids who won't make the NFL that no Bill has made this season. Just unbelievable when you think about it. Edited December 30, 2018 by Billsfan1972 1
thebandit27 Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 13 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Again, why are fans sold on Allen being the answer? Who is saying that? The only people that seem to be drawling conclusions are the folks that have declared him a guaranteed bust 1
Maine-iac Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 12 hours ago, Scott7975 said: Are there any QBs in the league that are successful with a receiver core that looks like this? Foster undrafted Bolden undrafted Thompson undrafted Scott undrafted Croom undrafted Logan Thomas 4th round pick McKenzie 5th round pick McCloud 6th round pick Zay Jones 2nd round pick We literally field a team of practice squad WRs. Most of these guys bounced around the league never having success before coming here. A couple of them were even cut from our own team before bringing them back during the season. I don't think many QBs would have much success fielding that team of targets. Put that together with one of the worst Olines in the league and a running game that outside of Allen was pretty much non existent. Yeah, yeah, yeah... QBs make the receiver. If that were true then teams like KC and Rams would not have gone out of their ways to surround their QBs with better receivers. Brady always plays worse without Edelman and Gronk. I'll preface this by saying I really like Allen but that said this is the same group from last year. Funny how the song has changed from horrible QB to horrible WR's. Granted I thought it was horrible WR's the whole time but fans love to play to a narrative. 1
Philly’sFinest Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 It’s pretty simple to me. Josh Allen has demonstrated that he has everything you look for in a franchise QB. He’s a smart kid that’s tough. He works hard, leads by example, motivates teammates, and is dedicated to his craft. Not even mentioning the god given physical talent he has. He has also shown improvement on the field while playing on an offense devoid of talent at receiver, a poor Oline, and zero running game. His short pass and dump off game is his biggest weakness, and his unwillingness to utilize that part of his game effectively hurts. He has shown the ability to hang in the pocket and make big throws, and he has generally seemed pretty poised and accurate when throwing downfield. The kid looks to make plays...whether it’s taking shots downfield, or using his mobility...this is something I love about him. Please don’t try and coach this out of Allen! Let him figure out that he needs to find the right balance himself. I believe he is smart enough to do so. Also, please get this kid some HELP! I’m talking upgrades at C, G, T, WR, TE, and RB. Every one of these positions needs to be addressed in some fashion. It was inexcusable to field such a poor offense out on the field this season. Give him this offseason to work on what he needs. Surround him with some guys that can catch and give him some protection and make some lanes for the run game, and then we will really find out exactly what we have. i believe we just may have our guy. Please give the kid some time and some help. 1
Maine-iac Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 Allen totally reminds me of a less refined Big Ben. Ben used to run more (not as much as Allen) and the team around him was much better. The Steelers defense was better than ours, the running game and O-line was better, and the pass catchers were much much better. Ben was not setting records passing his first few years but he made big throws and big runs and with the team around him was a winner. Allen is always looking downfield. As the game slows down and he learns the art of taking some more easy throws his completion rate will increase and his interceptions should drop. That said he doesn't have to be as efficient as Brees or Peyton to be a great QB. Great QB's are defined by a few plays at key times and not necessarily having 70 percent complete.
Doc Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, Maine-iac said: I'll preface this by saying I really like Allen but that said this is the same group from last year. Funny how the song has changed from horrible QB to horrible WR's. Granted I thought it was horrible WR's the whole time but fans love to play to a narrative. It's the same group from last year? Um, no. The OL is significantly worse after losing Wood, Incognito and Glenn and most of the WR's are 1st or 2nd year players. And Josh is a rookie whereas Tyrod was a 7th year veteran. 17 minutes ago, Maine-iac said: Allen totally reminds me of a less refined Big Ben. Ben used to run more (not as much as Allen) and the team around him was much better. The Steelers defense was better than ours, the running game and O-line was better, and the pass catchers were much much better. Ben was not setting records passing his first few years but he made big throws and big runs and with the team around him was a winner. Allen is always looking downfield. As the game slows down and he learns the art of taking some more easy throws his completion rate will increase and his interceptions should drop. That said he doesn't have to be as efficient as Brees or Peyton to be a great QB. Great QB's are defined by a few plays at key times and not necessarily having 70 percent complete. Yeah I think that Josh is looking for the big play on every down because he realizes he has little help. IMHO it's easier to learn to take the dumpoffs than it is to look downfield for the big play. 1
Maine-iac Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 Just now, Doc said: It's the same group from last year? Um, no. The OL is significantly worse after losing Wood, Incognito and Glenn and most of the WR's are 1st or 2nd year players. And Josh is a rookie whereas Tyrod was a 7th year veteran. Yup ........... completely what I expected. I'm not going to argue those points with you. It will not make a difference. 1
nedboy7 Posted December 30, 2018 Posted December 30, 2018 The fan base cares more about QB potential (not even stats) than wins. Yeah. Good stuff. 1 1
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