EJ Manuel: What went wrong after year 1?

[cale]

Just a reminder that Blake Bottles is a QB in this league. I just don't think EJ was ever gonna be an elite QB. If he was drafted in the 3rd or 4th his development might have taken a very different arc. But there was intense pressure to have him get out there and succeed with no one to actually help develop the guy.

 

Josh might get killed before we get him help.

[mjt328]

- He was very slow reading a defense and checked-down way too often

- His way of avoiding the pass rush was doing a backwards spin move, which usually resulted in an extra 5-10 yards lost on the sack

- His throwing mechanics were awful, resulting in terrible accuracy

- His play resulted in way too many turnovers, both with interceptions and fumbles

 

Honestly, there was nothing about EJ Manuel that ever impressed me.  He had a few OK games during first month of his rookie year, but then it was all downhill after that point.  You would get a decent throw occasionally (maybe every 2-3 games), surrounded by the unending 4-yard passes on 3rd and long, the high misfires over the middle almost getting our receivers injured, and his pathetic/failed attempts to avoid pass rushers.  He had a strong running game to support him.  He had good wide receivers.  He had a decent O-Line.  But he was always the weakest link, dragging an otherwise playoff-caliber team down.  I don't think anything "went wrong" with Manuel.  Teams figured out pretty quickly what he struggled with the most (there were a lot of things), and he never improved his game.  He never got better at reading defenses, never got better with his mechanics/accuracy and always panicked under pressure. 

 

Although I do agree that our coaching staff gave up too quickly (considering he was a 1st Round Pick, only a month into his second season), time eventually proved them right.  EJ has gotten opportunities and failed to do anything with them. 

 

Even if there are some similar rookie stats between Manuel and Josh Allen, the comparisons pretty much stop there.  The difference between the two guys is like night and day.  Where Manuel never really progressed after his senior year at Florida State, you can easily see a trend of improvement with Allen in all aspects of his game (mechanics, pocket presence, accuracy, etc.).  Where Manuel had good surrounding talent, Allen is pretty much carrying the offense by himself. 

 

[Buftex]

27 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

EJ threw the ball like he was shooting darts. Super odd throwing motion. (In fact, other than Rivers, I’m not sure I’ve seen such an unnatural motion.) He was never going to make it in the NFL trying to throw to receivers with that style.

I never noticed anuthing particularly odd in his throwimg motion.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Marrone then Rex

 

[SoCal Deek]

24 minutes ago, Buftex said:

I never noticed anuthing particularly odd in his throwimg motion.

Yea...he was aiming the ball rather than throwing it. He was still doing the same thing in Oakland.

[billspro]

I am not bitter about the EJ pick. I think his ceiling was a top 20 starter. He was more of a game manager than a play maker. His ball placement was just okay but did improve a lot while he was here. He was always a little too slow to diagnose the play and didn’t create many plays. I don’t think the coaching did him any favours though, he should have at least developed into a good backup QB imo.

[BillsMafia13]

9 hours ago, DBilz2500 said:

Couldn’t scan the field, terrible accuracy(don’t care what stats say he threw tons of checkdowns to boost %), not a natural thrower, terrible pocket presence. Allen, with much less to work with, already looks light years ahead of EJ after 1st year using the eye test 

This, even his check downs were awkward as hell.  Cant count how many he spiked at the receivers feet from 8 yards away

[PrimeTime101]

Captain Check Down.

Could not go through progressions

Could not read a blitz if it were to save his own life.

Lacked Leadership skills at times.

 

blah

[JPP]

Deer caught in the headlights....the stinkage really began to accumulate after year 1....

[BillsMafia13]

2 hours ago, Capco said:

What went wrong after year 1? 

 

EJ Manuel went wrong.  

 

Honestly though, I used to be in the bandwagon that EJ just wasn't given enough of a chance and that the whole "eye test" thing was a load of bull.  But after watching Josh Allen play this year with far less talent than EJ had around him, I finally get what they were saying.  

 

Granted, Josh has made some awful throws this year (the two INTs last week come to mind), but I still think the guy just has "it", whatever the hell "it" even is.  I never got that feeling with EJ in every game he played in the same way that I do with Allen. 

 

Sometimes EJ would turn "it" on and wow you, but Josh has "it" on 24/7.  

Kinda just hit me, Allen has the Brett Favre kind of mentality when he steps on the field

[CuddyDark]

Its the same for most young QBs. In the offseason teams watch all your tape and get all your mental tendencies based on down and distances, same thing they do to coordinators. They make plans on defense around taking away what you do best. If you can overcome that you're on the road to becoming a good player. If you can't you bust out.

Edited December 27, 2018 by CuddyDark

[uticaclub]

8 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

EJ’s first season is about equal statistically to Allen’s. The question is what happens in year 2?

Stats are for losers. Stats say Tyrod was a good QB

[bigK14094]

I saw them both.  EJ's accuracy was terrible, Allen's is borderline ok at this point.  EJ had deer in the headlights looks in the backfield under pressure, Allen knows what to do...either dance around in the pocket and get the throw off, or take off.  EJ took a number of big hits, Allen got hit, but that was mostly by his choice wanting the extra couple of yards.  EJ won a big one against Carolina the first year, but we haven't seen that yet from Allen......although one could argue the Detroit win was sort of that caliber win.  anyhow, I was an EJ detractor immediately when he missed the wr's by 10 yards consistently.   Allen may miss occasionally, but not like EJ.  I like where Allen is right now, and he will mature if he doesn't get hurt.

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

5 hours ago, Jasovon said:

The QB makes the receivers? So Josh needs to hit his receivers more in the hands and chest does he? 

 

You need both, you cannot win in the NFL with practice squad receivers. Look at Green Bay this season and tell me they don't miss Jordy Nelson. 

 

Green Bay had all it needed to be a Wild Card team.  Seriously, for as bad as it has seemed from the outside...The Packers are just barely going to miss the playoffs.

 

7-8-1

 

with a tie against Vikings based on a bogus penalty on Matthews.  So 8-8.

 

Then they had a 2 point loss to the Rams, and  3 point loses to Seahawks.  Plus a few other 1 score game loses.

 

Rams game was the Montgomery Kickoff Fumble...Seahawks game the Packers defense blew a 14-3 lead.

 

 

[Mister Defense]

Josh Allen is dramatically more skilled and so has dramatically more upside than Manuel. 

 

I wanted to believe in Manuel and so rationalized he was going to get better and better... and that his almost on target passes were the kinds of balls that young quarterbacks threw.

 

But he rarely put the ball where it needed to be, forcing receivers to stop, change routes, or get mauled going for the ball.  I was happy when Manuel was in the vicinity, thinking that meant he would eventually get it right.

 

But that was nonsense--Manuel did not have a good, accurate arm.  He could not learn the needed skills, as he simply didn't have them.

 

But Josh Allen has a real NFL arm and  likely elite NFL QB athleticism and leadership.  He throws a great ball, on target, with receivers in motion, and can make any throw.  His low percentage of completions is the result of many drops by receivers and of taking risks to make something happen (often because of the dismal running attack this year).

 

I could be rationalizing again, but really believe that the facts indicate that Josh Allen will be a great NFL quarterback--and soon. 

[Artem Lipatov]

EJ was a hope in first 4 games. I remember his winning drive in last seconds against Panthers. But after injury vs Browns he became injury-prone like a Chinese doll and began to afraid of runs, contact. Allen ran for 3 games by 100yrds in a row making hurdles over star lb. 

 EJ's checkdownd passes were inaccurate terribly. Josh has the same % but he throws longer passes and receivers always drop. EJ had Woods, Hogan, Stevie Johnson and Sammy Watkins and reliable OL.   Zay  and KB in this seson shape are defiinitely worse .

And he had weaker mentality. He lost job to Orton and to TT.   Allen won his competition for job although he was supposed to sit for a year.

 I am not sold 100% but I like Allen and I believe he'll be our guy for long time.

[Captain Hindsight]

2 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

There is no doubt that Allen passes up shorter, safer, and more certain completions to look for those in that 25-40 yard range, and, with more experience, I believe he'll get better at knowing when to take those shorter, higher percentage, throws. However, I absolutely love that he looks for those 25-40 yard passes first and that is who he is. I hope they put the right talent around him to maximize that aspect of his game.

I was having a conversation with someone Sunday about this. I argued that this is the time for Allen to try those throws. See what he can do at this level against this competition. Can I make this throw? What about this one? Spend a whole off season watching tape and be better next year.

 

I don't care if he throws a INT while trying to fit a ball into a tight window. I'd be more concerned if the QB with arguably the strongest arm in the league wasn't willing to try

[Bing Bong]

33 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said:

Kinda just hit me, Allen has the Brett Favre kind of mentality when he steps on the field

That's his best quality. Since the Miami throw to Clay I've been throwing the Brett Favre (who also lacked touch in his throws early on) with wheels comparison.. since these are the types of throws and risks nobody in their right mind makes but have the arm and gumption to get away with it. Appears to have the same presence in the huddle (although I seriously doubt he is nearly as funny and can keep the offense as loose as Brett did)

 

He's not Steve Young (really bad comparison), but ideally, best case ontario, he's Favre. CONFIDENT, talented, frustrating, equally rewarding. He's a gunslinger. I make the ceiling at Brett Favre. The floor is being nothing beyond Favre's first Packers year (which is a great improvement from Allen's rookie year regardless, and not bad at all: just likely not enough).

Edited December 27, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[Orlando Buffalo]

I was of the opinion then and even more so now that he needed to be allowed to win or lose games on his own. Marrone told him not to lose the game which is a terrible mentality to grow in. I am a math teacher and my students who are willing to make mistakes make greater gains then those who are unwilling. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, wppete said:

He was flat out a bad QB. But seemed like a good guy. 

 

I think we forget what the OP linked: he showed flashes.  During his rookie year, overall his performance was not atypical of rookie "teething pains".

 

I personally think EJM got something akin to the "Yips" between conflicting advice, no QB coach and an inexperienced OC his rookie season, and possibly conflicting coaching advice,  but that's just my theory.