Where would we be if we still had Cogs and Wood?

[JohnC]

21 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

He was older, his play was falling off, and he was making a lot in the short term when he wasn’t in our long term plans. Cap space rolls over. 

 

Cog in 2017 was a much different performer than Cog in 2015. 

I recognize that his play was falling off, especially when compared to 2015 when it was at an all-star level. That's understood. What is also understood was that this veteran player who was at the end of his career was not in this rebuilding team's future. The veteran even knew that.What was also evident was that this diminished player was still arguably our best blocker. The organization had the ability to absorb his contract without stressing the cap or handcuffing it from making other transactions.

 

The Incognito decision was a short term decision that hurt an already problematic O-line. Wouldn't it have made more sense to keep him for this year and then move on? There may be more to this issue but on the surface it didn't seem to be a prudent decision when considering how bad our line was without him. 

[Doc]

The Bills would have had at least 3 more wins: Houston, Jets and Miami.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

For all the complainers that want McBeane gone, have you thought about where we would be if we still had our two Pro-Bowl Olineman.  

 

Maybe Im wrong but I think with those two Allen doesnt get injured in the Texans game.  So at the least he would have won that game I believe and would have gotten more on field experience.

 

I also believe our run game would have been much better.

 

Best case senerio we may have actually had a shot at the division title.

 

The only down side may have been we may not have gotten Anderson and Barkley.  There is no way to tell how much hes learned from them.  Also I believe we have a long term viable backup in Barkley.

 

They had no way of knowing they would lose those two Oline and to ask them to replace those guys in a single off season is obserd.  Its amazing that there are some that cant put this season in perspective.  

 

We have had coach after coach that had their players underachieving and now we have one that I believe gets his team to overachieve and people want to get rid of him.  Im very excited about this teams potential goin forward as they seem to actually develope talent and motivate players.  I do believe it would have been easier to see it with Cogs and Wood still on the line.

 

...good point.....safe to say it was an unanticipated speed bump......perhaps could have weathered one, but TWO was steep.....I'd also ask that despite coming off injury, was Cordy Glenn the right trade bait to move up?  that's 3/5 of your OL...not sure if Castillo was equipped to deal with that type of upheaval as well.....he had started 12 straight for the Bengals until his back flared up....division title may be a stretch principally due to the WR & TE corp.....then again, restoring 3/5 of your OL may make the run game better, giving Josh more time to hopefully find receivers......all "shoulda...coulda...woulda...water over the dam" but an interesting topic...so we forge ahead...

Edited December 25, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Well..if this theory is true then there’s no reason to focus on anything other than the OLine in 2019. The rest of the many, many offensive problems (WR, TE, RB, and QB) were all self inflicted wounds by this Front Office and Coaching staff.

 

This is false.  I mean every word of this is false.  It’s amazing to me this mythological false narrative fans have with a “fuzzy” memory to say the least.  I see it repeated around here so much and it literally makes no sense.

 

WR - Woods left as a FA on his own to go back home to play before Beane was a Buffalo Bill.  Goodwin left as a FA and NO ONE here except me and a couple other people wanted to keep him.  Watkins was not going to be resigned and was going to be lost for nothing and Beane got a pretty good return for a guy who somehow makes $16m a year yet hasn’t had a 1000 yard season but once 5 years ago.

 

TE - Clay was already here before this regime and on a big contract.  We already had a ton of dead cap space and he was still (coming into this season) useful as he’s also a good blocker.

 

RB - This was never considered an issue coming into the season, and run game struggles have a lot, and I mean a lot, to do with the OL being so bad at blocking.  I mean there are few holes.

 

QB - How is this a self inflicted problem?  We were never going anywhere with Tyrod, we needed to draft a rookie to try and find a franchise QB we can TRULY contend with.  This is NOT a problem, QB has been a huge bright spot this year with Allen as his future looks very bright.

 

You cannot fill every hole every year.  We couldn’t spend heavy in agree Agency last year with Beane in process of fixing the cap mess he inherited (which he has and a year faster than he thought it would take).  We can’t fill every hole in a draft either.  I mean the last two drafts they have done quite well, but you only have so many picks.  Now they have the D good enough to contend and our franchise QB in place, and did all that while also completely fixing the cap and picking up a few extra draft picks this year too.

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[BringBackOrton]

18 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I recognize that his play was falling off, especially when compared to 2015 when it was at an all-star level. That's understood. What is also understood was that this veteran player who was at the end of his career was not in this rebuilding team's future. The veteran even knew that.What was also evident was that this diminished player was still arguably our best blocker. The organization had the ability to absorb his contract without stressing the cap or handcuffing it from making other transactions.

 

The Incognito decision was a short term decision that hurt an already problematic O-line. Wouldn't it have made more sense to keep him for this year and then move on? There may be more to this issue but on the surface it didn't seem to be a prudent decision when considering how bad our line was without him. 

We tried to keep him this year. 

 

You are conflating the issue as if the Bills should have known Richie would have lost his mind after agreeing to a pay cut of his own free will.

 

We only cut Richie after he called the Pegulas at their home and hurled obscenities at them because he lost his mind. Richie is the reason that Richie is cut.

 

Why you blame anybody else for this sequence of events is honestly beyond me. Should we not try to sign LorAx to a cheaper deal next year because he might freak out and scare the owners to the point of banning him from the premises? Maybe Matt Barkley decides he should be paid $10M a season tomorrow, and texts the Pegula children threats. I guess we shouldn’t have offered him a team-friendly deal.

 

 

[Nester]

It’s a big reason imo.

these guys are very hard to replace.

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is false.  I mean every word of this is false.  It’s amazing to me this mythological false narrative fans have with a “fuzzy” memory to say the least.  I see it repeated around here so much and it literally makes no sense.

 

WR - Woods left as a FA on his own to go back home to play before Beane was a Buffalo Bill.  Goodwin left as a FA and NO ONE here except me and a couple other people wanted to keep him.  Watkins was not going to be resigned and was going to be lost for nothing and Beane got a pretty good return for a guy who somehow makes $16m a year yet hasn’t had a 1000 yard season but once 5 years ago.

 

TE - Clay was already here before this regime and on a big contract.  We already had a ton of dead cap space and he was still (coming into this season) useful as he’s also a good blocker.

 

RB - This was never considered an issue coming into the season, and run game struggles have a lot, and I mean a lot, to do with the OL being so bad at blocking.  I mean there are few holes.

 

QB - How is this a self inflicted problem?  We were never going anywhere with Tyrod, we needed to draft a rookie to try and find a franchise QB we can TRULY contend with.  This is NOT a problem, QB has been a huge bright spot this year with Allen as his future looks very bright.

 

You cannot fill every hole every year.  We couldn’t spend heavy in agree Agency last year with Beane in process of fixing the cap mess he inherited (which he has and a year faster than he thought it would take).  We can’t fill every hole in a draft either.  I mean the last two drafts they have done quite well, but you only have so many picks.  Now they have the D good enough to contend and our franchise QB in place, and did all that while also completely fixing the cap and picking up a few extra draft picks this year too.

 

 

 

 

....whoa!...hope Santa brought you a kevlar vest with this "voice of reason" stuff 'Dawg........BTW, everything is 101% spot on...good show bud....

Edited December 25, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Marv's Neighbor]

2 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

I think the running game and Allen would have been better and of course Allen would have been protected a little better,but not better enough to win no more than maybe 3 more games IMO. I think they still would have had problems with the WRs. We will never know.

That's all very true BUT we have to start tackling and knocking people down.  This "arm tackling" stuff has got to end because it's totally ineffective.  That Pats TD where their man rolled over, and somehow never touched the ground, is an example of not finishing plays.

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

We tried to keep him this year. 

 

You are conflating the issue as if the Bills should have known Richie would have lost his mind after agreeing to a pay cut of his own free will.

 

We only cut Richie after he called the Pegulas at their home and hurled obscenities at them because he lost his mind. Richie is the reason that Richie is cut.

 

Why you blame anybody else for this sequence of events is honestly beyond me. Should we not try to sign LorAx to a cheaper deal next year because he might freak out and scare the owners to the point of banning him from the premises? Maybe Matt Barkley decides he should be paid $10M a season tomorrow, and texts the Pegula children threats. I guess we shouldn’t have offered him a team-friendly deal.

 

 

You need to re-read what I wrote instead of assuming and misinterpreting what I wrote . I posed the question, not made a declaration about what happened with this situation. I don't know what the full story is. None of us do. Where I do voice my opinion on the issue of losing him because of cutting his salary when it wasn't necessary to do so. Assuming that there weren't other side issues we could have easily kept him with his original contract. The issue that I am considering is by instigating his departure because of a salary cut did it hurt us? I would say yes. Is there a back story regarding this player? Maybe. But before the salary cut he was  undoubtedly one of the better players on the line. Last year, our OL was horrible. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by JohnC

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

That's all very true BUT we have to start tackling and knocking people down.  This "arm tackling" stuff has got to end because it's totally ineffective.  That Pats TD where their man rolled over, and somehow never touched the ground, is an example of not finishing plays.

 

...certainly cannot deny that gaffes elsewhere would have also disappeared as well......although Richie was NEVER ONCE guilty of holding (I prefer to say "temporarily detained the opposition"..), we STILL take too many undisciplined, dumb penalties....

[LSHMEAB]

Every single team has some level of attrition. We're talking about two decent offensive linemen here. We're not talking about Dermontti Dawson and Bruce Matthews. That is not a valid excuse for some of the blowout losses that we've endured. The Chicago game always comes to mind when I ponder McDermott's future. That was a total meltdown and not the type you see from elite coaches. I don't believe the acquisitions of Murphy and Star aided the defense nearly enough to warrant the capital, which is why I'm more skeptical of Beane than even McDermott. At least I've seen some positive results from McDermott.

 

What I don't want is more excuses for 2019. It's make or break for these guys.

27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

You cannot fill every hole every year.  We couldn’t spend heavy in agree Agency last year with Beane in process of fixing the cap mess he inherited (which he has and a year faster than he thought it would take).  We can’t fill every hole in a draft either.  I mean the last two drafts they have done quite well, but you only have so many picks.  Now they have the D good enough to contend and our franchise QB in place, and did all that while also completely fixing the cap and picking up a few extra draft picks this year too.

 

 

 

The concern I have is in regards to the players Beane DID bring in. Murphy and Lotuleilei have been underwhelming. Those signings don't exactly inspire a ton of confidence that Beane will spend wisely with all that cap space. We shall see.

Edited December 25, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Every single team has some level of attrition. We're talking about two decent offensive linemen here. We're not talking about Dermontti Dawson and Bruce Matthews. That is not a valid excuse for some of the blowout losses that we've endured. The Chicago game always comes to mind when I ponder McDermott's future. That was a total meltdown and not the type you see from elite coaches. I don't believe the acquisitions of Murphy and Star aided the defense nearly enough to warrant the capital, which is why I'm more skeptical of Beane than even McDermott. At least I've seen some positive results from McDermott.

 

What I don't want is more excuses for 2019. It's make or break for these guys.

The concern I have is in regards to the players Beane DID bring in. Murphy and Lotuleilei have been underwhelming. Those signings don't exactly inspire a ton of confidence that Beane will spend wisely with all that cap space. We shall see.

 

This is a more fair stance.   But to be equally fair, you can’t say that and also ignore the good additions they brought in too via FA and draft.  No GM in history has a .1000 batting average in signings, and while I agree the Star signing hasn’t proved to be worth it yet, the Murphy one can easily be rectified this year as they have outs in his contract, so not a big problem if they don’t want to keep him.  Plus, the Star contract isn’t going to hold us back, we have plenty of cap room, so it’s not as bad as it seems.

 

But those OL are not just some JAG players.  We lost two pro bowl OL and didn’t have cap room to fill those spots with even competent players.  I mean we are starting guys on the OL who are not even good backups.  You can’t run the ball or protect your QB when you have poor rotational blockers up front who would struggle to even make other rosters as a backup.  

[Nuncha]

Maybe 1-2 more wins.

[BringBackOrton]

30 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You need to re-read what I wrote instead of assuming and misinterpreting what I wrote . I posed the question, not made a declaration about what happened with this situation. I don't know what the full story is. None of us do. Where I do voice my opinion on the issue of losing him because of cutting his salary when it wasn't necessary to do so. Assuming that there weren't other side issues we could have easily kept him with his original contract. The issue that I am considering is by instigating his departure because of a salary cut did it hurt us? I would say yes. Is there a back story regarding this player? Maybe. But before the salary cut he was  undoubtedly one of the better players on the line. Last year, our OL was horrible. 

I'm reading what you're saying, it's just that your question presents a false choice that didn't exist at the time.

 

In fact, I answered your question.

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Wouldn't it have made more sense to keep him for this year and then move on? 

 

40 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

We tried to keep him this year. 

That's the end of the story.  We tried to keep Richie this year, at a reduced salary that he agreed to, and we were successful in doing so until he lost his mind.  Period.

 

There was no real "decision" to move on. Richie "decided" to move on by acting insane.  And that hurt us.

Edited December 25, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is a more fair stance.   But to be equally fair, you can’t say that and also ignore the good additions they brought in too via FA and draft.  No GM in history has a .1000 batting average in signings, and while I agree the Star signing hasn’t proved to be worth it yet, the Murphy one can easily be rectified this year as they have outs in his contract, so not a big problem if they don’t want to keep him.  Plus, the Star contract isn’t going to hold us back, we have plenty of cap room, so it’s not as bad as it seems.

 

But those OL are not just some JAG players.  We lost two pro bowl OL and didn’t have cap room to fill those spots with even competent players.  I mean we are starting guys on the OL who are not even good backups.  You can’t run the ball or protect your QB when you have poor rotational blockers up front who would struggle to even make other rosters as a backup.  

I hated/hate the Star signing so that tends to shape my opinion on the 2018 off season. Not sure who was available at OL other than Bodine(who may actually be serviceable at C) and Funkhouser(who's trash.) Probably could have allocated the Star resources better(much better). We'll see what happens this offseason. I'm not willing to give these guys 5 years. 3 years is plenty to figure it out.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

18 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Every single team has some level of attrition. We're talking about two decent offensive linemen here. We're not talking about Dermontti Dawson and Bruce Matthews. That is not a valid excuse for some of the blowout losses that we've endured. The Chicago game always comes to mind when I ponder McDermott's future. That was a total meltdown and not the type you see from elite coaches. I don't believe the acquisitions of Murphy and Star aided the defense nearly enough to warrant the capital, which is why I'm more skeptical of Beane than even McDermott. At least I've seen some positive results from McDermott.

 

What I don't want is more excuses for 2019. It's make or break for these guys.

The concern I have is in regards to the players Beane DID bring in. Murphy and Lotuleilei have been underwhelming. Those signings don't exactly inspire a ton of confidence that Beane will spend wisely with all that cap space. We shall see.

 

.......despite being bound by the 89% cap spend rule, not sure how McBeane plans to go about his business.....do not see him as a "big splash...name player" type.....somebody here posted a McBeane quote about how he assigns a "value to a particular player and that's it.."...so individual overspending is out....I'd offer that cap clearing and "garbage to the curb" did inhibit his signings.......both Murphy and Halftime Vontae were coming off injury, so he went value shopping to plug holes....Murphy missed the majority of TC and pre-season, with the regular season being a cameo appearance to go along with his PED, "process fitting" suspension (?).....throw in the MAJOR Coleman gaffe......unpredictably losing Wood and Richie, but then using Glenn as trade bait to move up equates to 3/5 or 60% of your OL.....questionable?.....is Castillo the right guy to face that adversity with a strong training and developmental skill set?....determining that Peterman made the meteoric rise from a 5th to a bonafide starter because of "progress" in TC and pre-season with RUBBER BULLETS made McCarron expendable for a coveted (COUGH) 5th"?....maybe a 5th of Blanton's.....plenty of questionable personnel moves (probably left some out), but as you said, "we shall see"...with 10 picks and FA $$$ in 2019, it is probably one of THE most pivotal years in a decade+, or perhaps back to Polian era....same 5-10 position next year as we are in now may make McBeane & McDermott question job security nightly...."we shall see" as you said.......

[Doc]

45 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Every single team has some level of attrition. We're talking about two decent offensive linemen here. We're not talking about Dermontti Dawson and Bruce Matthews. That is not a valid excuse for some of the blowout losses that we've endured. The Chicago game always comes to mind when I ponder McDermott's future. That was a total meltdown and not the type you see from elite coaches. I don't believe the acquisitions of Murphy and Star aided the defense nearly enough to warrant the capital, which is why I'm more skeptical of Beane than even McDermott. At least I've seen some positive results from McDermott.

 

What I don't want is more excuses for 2019. It's make or break for these guys.

The concern I have is in regards to the players Beane DID bring in. Murphy and Lotuleilei have been underwhelming. Those signings don't exactly inspire a ton of confidence that Beane will spend wisely with all that cap space. We shall see.

 

Yeah, they likely wouldn't have affected the outcomes of the blowouts.  That's why I said 3 more wins, in the close games.

[Peter]

2 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

I’ll give you 6 and a half million reasons.

 

Your math is not very good.

[formerlyofCtown]

4 hours ago, Patrick_Duffy said:

I think the running game and Allen would have been better and of course Allen would have been protected a little better,but not better enough to win no more than maybe 3 more games IMO. I think they still would have had problems with the WRs. We will never know.

As crazy as it sounds this Season may have had the best results for Allens future.

[BringBackOrton]

12 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

Your math is not very good.

?