Again in 5 minutes of a game I see catches no Bills have made this year

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

See my qualification above. Address the other difficulty and velocity issues. Those are real things that manifested on that play. 

We can agree to disagree. IMO, what separates NFL caliber receivers from those who never make it in the NFL is the ability to make that kind of a catch. Again, IMO, not an easy catch, but, one that should be made most of the time.

Edited December 24, 2018 by billsfan1959

[LSHMEAB]

So we're dissecting the Logan Thomas play? Allen threw it where only Thomas could catch it. Would have been ideal if it had slightly less zip but a fine pass nonetheless. Would have required a superb catch by Thomas, but he could have had better timing on his jump. Not a "poor" effort by either player. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

I caught the end of the NO game. Receiver dropped a PERFECTLY placed ball by Brees on 3rd and long. Brees came back and converted on 4th. That's what the greats do. They overcome drops. Eventually Allen may get there. That's the hope.

Brees’ adjusted qb completion % must be 99%!

 

this is my frustration with the way people defend Allen (and this is a Bills board so again I get it).  It’s also how I probably sounded defending JP and EJ.

 

1)  Wilson completed 73% of his passes his last year in college. Mahomes completed 66%.  Now, I know Allen is never the rest for an incompletion, but he completed 56% and has never been better than that at any level.  I know this is crazy, but maybe, Wilson and Mahomes throw more accurate and catchable passes.

 

they talked about the arc Wilson throws on his deep passes. Mahomes makes throws sideways around defenders and throws at angles I’ve never seen before.  They are really, really good.

 

2). The same front office that built this offense, drafted Allen.  Maybe they just are terrible at scouting offense.  I was screaming for them to take St Brown of Notre Dame (near a 100 yards yesterday) but they took a small, slot receiver who wasn’t even the best on his college team.  They traded for KB after seeing him firsthand in Carolina!!! 

 

3) Baldwin wasn’t drafted. Lockett was a 3rd.  Robinson was a 4th.  Zay Jones would be the highest drafted receiver on either teAm.  At some point, when does the qb elevate the receivers?  My god, Brady made a career of making stars out of scrubs.

 

our receivers suck.  That Foster one could have been a bad one.  But at some point, can we hold the highest drafted QB in Bills history, a guy who has never been over 56%, accountable?  It’s not all his fault but there’s a reason people question him going that high.   He needs to be better. 

[Magox]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

We can agree to disagree. IMO, what separates NFL caliber receivers from those who never make it in the NFL is the ability to make that kind of a catch. Again, IMO, not an easy catch, but, one that should be made most of the time.

Yes, its not an easy catch but it's a catch that is routinely made by decent NFL players.  Which is what we are lacking from our pass catchers

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Great post. Speed is so important. We need more of it.

Absolutely. As soon as Dez Bryant lost a step, it was over. Big body fade pattern in the back of the EZ guys are becoming NFL relics.

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

It is old and tired, you're like a pit bull on a soup bone. Doesn't make you wrong.

 

It wasn't just KC/Seattle, I saw a number of great catches in Steelers/Saints too.

Or they have HOF QBs making great passes. I know Allen is a combo of Elway/ newton/ Steve young but he has a ways to go. 

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Brees’ adjusted qb completion % must be 99%!

 

this is my frustration with the way people defend Allen (and this is a Bills board so again I get it).  It’s also how I probably sounded defending JP and EJ.

 

1)  Wilson completed 73% of his passes his last year in college. Mahomes completed 66%.  Now, I know Allen is never the rest for an incompletion, but he completed 56% and has never been better than that at any level.  I know this is crazy, but maybe, Wilson and Mahomes throw more accurate and catchable passes.

 

they talked about the arc Wilson throws on his deep passes. Mahomes makes throws sideways around defenders and throws at angles I’ve never seen before.  They are really, really good.

 

2). The same front office that built this offense, drafted Allen.  Maybe they just are terrible at scouting offense.  I was screaming for them to take St Brown of Notre Dame (near a 100 yards yesterday) but they took a small, slot receiver who wasn’t even the best on his college team.  They traded for KB after seeing him firsthand in Carolina!!! 

 

3) Baldwin wasn’t drafted. Lockett was a 3rd.  Robinson was a 4th.  Zay Jones would be the highest drafted receiver on either teAm.  At some point, when does the qb elevate the receivers?  My god, Brady made a career of making stars out of scrubs.

 

our receivers suck.  That Foster one could have been a bad one.  But at some point, can we hold the highest drafted QB in Bills history, a guy who has never been over 56%, accountable?  It’s not all his fault but there’s a reason people question him going that high.   He needs to be better. 

Nah. Accept that this offense is the Little Giants or face the wrath. Who's not wearing the ribbon??

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

So we're dissecting the Logan Thomas play? Allen threw it where only Thomas could catch it. Would have been ideal if it had slightly less zip but a fine pass nonetheless. Would have required a superb catch by Thomas, but he could have had better timing on his jump. Not a "poor" effort by either player. 

This. I think what's driving the criticism of Thomas on that play is that the Bills NEVER make high-difficulty catches. It's frustrating. If they made a few more, I think people would have categorized that one as "tough catch to make,  move onto the next play." All the same, Allen is a bad touch passer right now and he has to understand that rifling it in is going to result in an inordinate number of incompletions regardless of the accuracy. 

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Look, that's in the realm of catchable, but it's in the fingertip region, he's leaping, the coverage is perfect, he's on the sideline, and the ball was thrown extremely hard. An elite receiver catches it 60 percent of the time, i think (although factor in Allen's velocity), and average receivers catch it less than half. The bottom line is that it's not an easy catch. And yes the Bills' receivers suck. I know that. But Allen has touch and accuracy issues at present that he needs to fix too. Again, though, i'm not saying that's a bad throw. Give the defender--who would have had a chance to swat it, a la leigh bodden, if he had hung on--some credit. He was in perfect position.

Honest question, because I don’t remember because I was doing it, did folks do this for EJ or JP?  Not saying Allen won’t be better but I don’t remember any player getting more excuses made than Allen?

 

and he’s a rookie QB and will have plenty of time to prove himself.  But it’s weird that people are working so hard to defend something that many people thought was issue for him in college. 

10 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

Put Allen on KC and we'd be talking about an all time rookie season at QB. It's not just the receivers, it's also the ability to scheme offensively.

Haha.  This is hilarious.  Yup, the guy who didn’t make any of the all MWC teams, who struggles with accuracy, would be doing what Mahomes is doing.  Mahomes might be the best qb in the nfl.  Stop selling him short.

 

If Allen was on the Jets, we would be laughing at his stats and saying he is a running back playing qb.  Don’t lie, because it’s true.  ?

[mannc]

The lack of offensive playmakers on this team is nothing short of a scandal.  Other than Foster, who Beane cut earlier in the year, I doubt a single Bills TE or WR would make the 53-man rosters of the Chiefs, Steelers or the Saints.  Probably true of our running backs, too, before Connor and Hunt got sidelined.  Someone in charge doesn’t know how to evaluate offensive skill players, or is completely clueless about how the modern NFL works.

[MJS]

9 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

It is old and tired, you're like a pit bull on a soup bone. Doesn't make you wrong.

 

It wasn't just KC/Seattle, I saw a number of great catches in Steelers/Saints too.

 

Even the Jets and Dolphins get occasional great catches from their WR's. We saw the Lions do it too. The Lions are a crappy team. We literally are the only team that has receivers who can't make tough catches ever.

 

And I'm sure this is what Allen dealt with at Wyoming too. I can't wait to see what he can do with talented receivers. Hopefully one day.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

This. I think what's driving the criticism of Thomas on that play is that the Bills NEVER make high-difficulty catches. It's frustrating. If they made a few more, I think people would have categorized that one as "tough catch to make,  move onto the next play." All the same, Allen is a bad touch passer right now and he has to understand that rifling it in is going to result in an inordinate number of incompletions regardless of the accuracy. 

Exactly!  Touch!  Besides having a cannon, watch the touch Mahomes has.  I remember watching JP throw a 60 yard pass like nothing, and then bounce a 5 yard screen pass.  I remember EJ rolling out and throwing a 80 yard bomb to Mike Williams with ease and then throw lawn darts to guys 10 yards away.  

 

Allen has every tool.  But his touch passing is really, really bad and that’s what great qb have.  He is a like a major league pitcher who throws a 100, but has no other pitches and struggles with control. 

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

Haha.  This is hilarious.  Yup, the guy who didn’t make any of the all MWC teams, who struggles with accuracy, would be doing what Mahomes is doing.  Mahomes might be the best qb in the nfl.  Stop selling him short.

 

If Allen was on the Jets, we would be laughing at his stats and saying he is a running back playing qb.  Don’t lie, because it’s true.  ?

 

I didn't say he'd be doing what Mahomes is doing. I said he'd be having a great rookie season.

 

But good to see that there are still some Allen detractors sticking to their guns despite watching the games and seeing that the narrative on him is completely false. He can play in this league and has obvious potential. Claiming otherwise is stupidity.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

The lack of offensive playmakers on this team is nothing short of a scandal.  Other than Foster, who Beane cut earlier in the year, I doubt a single Bills TE or WR would make the 53-man rosters of the Chiefs, Steelers or the Saints.  Probably true of our running backs, too, before Connor and Hunt got sidelined.  Someone in charge doesn’t know how to evaluate offensive skill players, or is completely clueless about how the modern NFL works.

Kelvin Benjamin 

[Dr. Who]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honest question, because I don’t remember because I was doing it, did folks do this for EJ or JP?  Not saying Allen won’t be better but I don’t remember any player getting more excuses made than Allen?

 

and he’s a rookie QB and will have plenty of time to prove himself.  But it’s weird that people are working so hard to defend something that many people thought was issue for him in college. 

He's not wildy inaccurate. He's making passes average NFL receivers ought to catch most of the time. The reason folks are "making excuses" is critics keep falsely looking at Wyoming completion percentage as "proof" the guy has an accuracy problem. He has a "touch" problem that strong-armed rookie qbs often have. And is it true or not that the oline, rb, wr, and te are basically bad on this team? Rosenites excuse far worse performance because supposedly no talent -- Larry Fitzgerald is now slow and done (he probably is, but at least you can count on him to catch the ball when it's in proximity to his hands), David Johnson is apparently negligible, etc. But folks who think Allen is a potential franchise qb are gullible (though one can forgive them for being dopes because fans of team) . . .

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, MJS said:

 

I didn't say he'd be doing what Mahomes is doing. I said he'd be having a great rookie season.

 

But good to see that there are still some Allen detractors sticking to their guns despite watching the games and seeing that the narrative on him is completely false. He can play in this league and has obvious potential. Claiming otherwise is stupidity.

Who said he couldn’t play in the league?  The question is whether he is a franchise qb.  He obviously has a ton of talent which is why we drafted him so high, despite some very apparent flaws.

 

and yes, Allen would be better on KC but I don’t think Andy Reid would draft a guy like Allen in the first place.  That’s why when SM got the call from Reid to trade at the trade, he should have just pick Mahomes.  The idea that guys who made this talentless offense picked a qb that high terrifies me.  What has McBean shown about knowing offense? We need to hire an offensive evaluator this offseason.

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

He's not wildy inaccurate. He's making passes average NFL receivers ought to catch most of the time. The reason folks are "making excuses" is critics keep falsely looking at Wyoming completion percentage as "proof" the guy has an accuracy problem. He has a "touch" problem that strong-armed rookie qbs often have. And is it true or not that the oline, rb, wr, and te are basically bad on this team? Rosenites excuse far worse performance because supposedly no talent -- Larry Fitzgerald is now slow and done (he probably is, but at least you can count on him to catch the ball when it's in proximity to his hands), David Johnson is apparently negligible, etc. But folks who think Allen is a potential franchise qb are gullible (though one can forgive them for being dopes because fans of team) . . .

 

Very well said.

[mannc]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Kelvin Benjamin 

Yep.  The Ravens picked Mark Andrews, the Oklahoma TE, one slot after the pick we dealt to Carolina for Benjamin.  That would have been nice...

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:

He's not wildy inaccurate. He's making passes average NFL receivers ought to catch most of the time. The reason folks are "making excuses" is critics keep falsely looking at Wyoming completion percentage as "proof" the guy has an accuracy problem. He has a "touch" problem that strong-armed rookie qbs often have. And is it true or not that the oline, rb, wr, and te are basically bad on this team? Rosenites excuse far worse performance because supposedly no talent -- Larry Fitzgerald is now slow and done (he probably is, but at least you can count on him to catch the ball when it's in proximity to his hands), David Johnson is apparently negligible, etc. But folks who think Allen is a potential franchise qb are gullible (though one can forgive them for being dopes because fans of team) . . .

Honest question:  at what point can you say Allen (49% at Juco, 56% at Wyoming, 51.7% nfl) struggles with accuracy?  

 

His receivers suck but this has been the story of his career.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honest question:  at what point can you say Allen (49% at Juco, 56% at Wyoming, 51.7% nfl) struggles with accuracy?  

 

His receivers suck but this has been the story of his career.

 

Im getting the feeling you didn’t like the Allen pick.  Am I right?