Tremaine Edmunds: He was the worst player on the field Dec 23 (vs NE)

[NewEra]

He was the worst player on the field.  No question.  He’s weak.  No question. His instincts aren’t up there with the greats.  No question.  

 

He won’t be the worst player on the field next season.  No question.  He will get stronger.  No question.  He will learn to play the position at a higher level.  No question.

 

will he be good enough to play MLB?  TBD.  I’m not convinced he can play MLB at a high level.  I am convinced that we can be one of the best coverage LBs in the league and is a perfect fit in the zone D.  Playing the run, he’s abysmal to date.

 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Lenigmusx said:

The Vikings Eric Kendricks is a prime example of someone who developed into a MLB. He started only playing in the nickel and by many reports had physical talent but was slow to read and react. He has become one of the better starters in the league in 3 years. 

 

Preston Brown is also a good example of someone who has grown into the role. In recent times.

 

Kendricks was also on the PFWA All Rookie team his first year and brown honestly didn’t change drastically through the years.

[BillyWhiteShows]

14 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He was the worst player on the field.  No question.  He’s weak.  No question. His instincts aren’t up there with the greats.  No question.  

 

He won’t be the worst player on the field next season.  No question.  He will get stronger.  No question.  He will learn to play the position at a higher level.  No question.

 

will he be good enough to play MLB?  TBD.  I’m not convinced he can play MLB at a high level.  I am convinced that we can be one of the best coverage LBs in the league and is a perfect fit in the zone D.  Playing the run, he’s abysmal to date.

 

 

 

 

 

I hope so.  After today, it seems like that’s a long shot but I hope you are right

[mjt328]

Tremaine Edmunds was dreadful today (as was the D-Line and his partner Corey Thompson).

But as usual, we have those who want to turn this game observation into a total overblown overreaction.

 

I feel like I say this 150 times every season about first year players, but Edmunds is a R-O-O-K-I-E.  The idea that MLBs always play great immediately is garbage.  The idea he can't improve his instincts is garbage.  The idea that he can't bulk up, get stronger and get better at shedding blocks is garbage.  Will he?  I don't know.  But neither does anyone else.

 

[MrEpsYtown]

37 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Huh?   The draft profiles I saw said instincts were his biggest weakness:

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/tremaine-edmunds?id=32462018-0002-5600-62d0-412c60099aca

 

https://www.profootballweekly.com/2018/04/17/nfl-draft-profile-no-11-virginia-tech-lb-tremaine-edmunds/a42uauc/

 

 

 

That PFW article is pretty interesting. This seems pretty much on point: 

 

Downside: Gap integrity looks like that of a 19-year old. Will take the wrong gap and watch runners go where he should have been. Eyes get too big — gets greedy and will overplay the ball. Takes on blockers at poor angles and gets cleaned out of plays. Has to key better on OL movement and diagnose run plays just a hair faster. Doesn’t use his hands well enough at this point to stack and shed interior OL blocks. Can get blown up by crack-back blocks — must do better job of keeping head on a swivel.

 

So I wonder, are Tremaine's issues really about instincts or more about technique? I think it's more about technique and strength. I still go back to Mike Mayock saying that there is no comparison because he's never really seen a prospect like Tremaine. I think he will blow up next year, but this team has put a lot on his plate. There is no doubt that he needs to work on his technique more than anything and needs to get stronger. 

 

I thought this this quote from the PFW article was pretty telling as well:

 

Quotable: “We were doing a little research on the ages of prospects, and we found that most [20-year olds who] go that high were [offensive and defensive] linemen and some receivers. We couldn’t really find too many linebackers that age that high. Raekwon [McMillan] was a 2. Terrell Suggs was a high 1, but they had him rushing the passer, not lining guys up. I don’t know if you give [Edmunds] a green dot [the helmet with the communication to a defensive coordinator] Day 1. That’s a lot to ask of any rookie, especially a guy that young. He just doesn't have the rare instincts to do that. I would never put that on the kid. He needs time. But he can play. Wouldn’t shock me if he ends up one of the five or six best [non-quarterbacks] in this class when we look back.” — NFC national scout

 

Thats pretty much exactly what our team has asked Tremaine to do. 

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

46 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I think the "move Edmunds to OLB" idea is kind of tired. We spend the majority of the game in a nickel defense, which would be he and Milano anyway. 90% of the fits and things would be the same as they are now regardless of calling him a SAM in base. Also your SAM backer in base defenses has to often jam tight ends and have a really strong punch, which is not something's Edmunds seems to do well. Draft Josh Allen and stick him there and get some functional depth. Edmunds played terrible, but he will be better. During draft time everyone talked about how great his instincts were. He's playing soft and needs some strength. 

 

We wound up in base a lot because the Pats forced us into it. They came out with a tight end and a fullback a ton which is why we saw so much Corey Thompson. The Lions playing 3 wide looks played into our hands last week. It was smart of the Pats to force us into base, forcing us to play Thompson and taking advantage of him, as Raphael Bush is a much better player. 

 

We should have signed Marquis Flowers a couple of weeks ago instead of assuming Corey Thompson was going to be okay. The Pats took advantage of this. 

 

 

Tired?    It's hardly been discussed since he was moved to MLB by McD.?

 

And then you are talking about drafting yet another OLB in Josh Allen in round one?

 

What they could do to try to save McBeane's skin is trade for Kuechly(who could be available with his base salary jumping from $800K to $10M in 2019) and try to turn Edmunds into an edge rusher who can also drop or matchup against TE's.

 

I don't disagree with your take on BB's strategy but the reality is that the Pats playing against their strength to take advantage of the Bills LB's left them vulnerable.   Brady was entirely out of rhythm and uncomfortable.   Thompson and Lorax both forced turnovers in the short passing game.  A decent day from Edmunds and any kind of passable offensive showing beats the Patriots today.

[DrPJax]

3 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

On the defensive side he was brutal and here is why

- Consistently out of position

- Over pursues

- Plays too tall

- Never lowers his shoulder pads

- Weak tackler- everytimehe tackles the player goes forward a few more yards

- Takes horrible angles- misses way to many tackles.

this one is on the regime.

He should be playing OLB

I agree .  There are no more rookies at week 16 in the season and he played thus way since game one.  Getting run on for 273 yds has to raise doubts about ability and grasp of the d concepts.  I know he is not solely responsible but he really stands out for missing plays and rarely stands out for significant good play. What I believe tho is that This is a symptom of the whole process.  Terrible personnel decisions since preseason. A middle lb who looks better suited for the outside yet let’s keep forcing the square peg into the round hole since Since we ordained him as the next “ Luke K “ ! Then begin the season by astutely evaluating  Peterman as your starter with no vet presence on the squad ; no wrs brought in and we stuck with guys like kB , Holmes who were so good they get cut prior to seasons end ; Murphy who had been average to just totally absent most of the season; bring in Anderson who was also terrible amd wasted games before luckily ( perhaps) hitting on Barkley who we sign for 2 years after one game ; run stopping that was terrible early in season and  your Carolina man Star who is avg and has been mentioned as worst free agent signing perhaps in the league; sticking  with shady until he takes himself out with “ hamstring issues”  behind a terrible o line  hard headedly keeping someone starting based on prior years yet not performing well currently ( his worst season ) ; we can probably all agree on terrible o line , terrrible special teams , and I believe terrible d coordinator who also had to have playcalling taken from him at one point as he continues to be here despite his vaunted d who gives up tds at a 75% clip in the red zone ( but they give up so few yards ! Too bad yards aren’t  counted on the scoreboard as we continue blowout losses) ; irrational playcalling at times as Mcd can’t decide on whether to play aggressive or conservative even with playoffs long gone , wasted time outs , terrible clock management, 1/10 in challenges , undisciplined play resulting in being highly penalized, having new punters be the holder for your excellent kicker ( oh backfired again today ),sending your place kicker out for a long attempt soon after he was noticeably injured ;  perhaps a tendency to trade up or overvalue players that appear to be struggling to say the least as other teams seem to be better talent evaluators ( unfinished products I know but so far Edmonds , Zay Jones , and I pray not Allen , seem to have been valued when talent like Watson ,maholmes,  Dallas lb Vander whom ever,  are passed over )!   I give credit for Foster playing now and stealing McKenzie but this was done after the season was lost making me ask why couldn’t we identify a need for speed earlier and this good is offset by horrendous evaluation at the tight end position. 

 

This was a terrible performance on many levels today and I see no reason to believe just having more cap space is going to make a difference when poor evaluations and decision making is what we have as our measurable product so far. Who would  have thought Indy would be playing like this ( proof that coaching does matter and gosh I wish Frank was here and not Mcd) .  To top it off the prior 1-32 browns have a better roster and look to have a brighter future even with greggo than that mess we saw perform today.  Feelsbadman!  I just don’t see progress with the process In developing an identity as a team moving forward. ( oh, I forgot our starting cb retiring at halftime ,,,,, looking at all this in totality is scary). So having Edmonds playing mlb and struggling all year is a warning sign to me of more of the same play we witnessed today as our future. Disheartening performance today imho !  Apologize for the rant, really like Allen,  yet will he get the coaching he needs under this regime!?!  Perhaps the  worst pats team we have faced in quite awhile and we were never really in this game. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

That PFW article is pretty interesting. This seems pretty much on point: 

 

Downside: Gap integrity looks like that of a 19-year old. Will take the wrong gap and watch runners go where he should have been. Eyes get too big — gets greedy and will overplay the ball. Takes on blockers at poor angles and gets cleaned out of plays. Has to key better on OL movement and diagnose run plays just a hair faster. Doesn’t use his hands well enough at this point to stack and shed interior OL blocks. Can get blown up by crack-back blocks — must do better job of keeping head on a swivel.

 

So I wonder, are Tremaine's issues really about instincts or more about technique? I think it's more about technique and strength. I still go back to Mike Mayock saying that there is no comparison because he's never really seen a prospect like Tremaine. I think he will blow up next year, but this team has put a lot on his plate. There is no doubt that he needs to work on his technique more than anything and needs to get stronger. 

 

I thought this this quote from the PFW article was pretty telling as well:

 

Quotable: “We were doing a little research on the ages of prospects, and we found that most [20-year olds who] go that high were [offensive and defensive] linemen and some receivers. We couldn’t really find too many linebackers that age that high. Raekwon [McMillan] was a 2. Terrell Suggs was a high 1, but they had him rushing the passer, not lining guys up. I don’t know if you give [Edmunds] a green dot [the helmet with the communication to a defensive coordinator] Day 1. That’s a lot to ask of any rookie, especially a guy that young. He just doesn't have the rare instincts to do that. I would never put that on the kid. He needs time. But he can play. Wouldn’t shock me if he ends up one of the five or six best [non-quarterbacks] in this class when we look back.” — NFC national scout

 

Thats pretty much exactly what our team has asked Tremaine to do. 

 

 

 

 

 

Scouts love to use comps.

 

They can't find a comp for a MLB that young.......mmkay yeah.......but who are the comps for MLB's who lacked "rare instincts" but turned into players good enough to be remembered as one of the "five or six best" non-QB's in a draft?

 

There's a first time for everything I guess.

 

[MrEpsYtown]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Tired?    It's hardly been discussed since he was moved to MLB by McD.?

 

And then you are talking about drafting yet another OLB in Josh Allen in round one?

 

What they could do to try to save McBeane's skin is trade for Kuechly(who could be available with his base salary jumping from $800K to $10M in 2019) and try to turn Edmunds into an edge rusher who can also drop or matchup against TE's.

 

I don't disagree with your take on BB's strategy but the reality is that the Pats playing against their strength to take advantage of the Bills LB's left them vulnerable.   Brady was entirely out of rhythm and uncomfortable.   Thompson and Lorax both forced turnovers in the short passing game.  A decent day from Edmunds and any kind of passable offensive showing beats the Patriots today.

 

Tremaine was an inside linebacker at Virginia Tech. He wasn't a 4-3 Mike like he is now, but he was playing on the inside so he really was never moved. I've seen this suggested a bit the last few weeks and I just don't think it makes any sense. If Kuechly came aboard, well ***** yeah it makes sense. It made sense to maybe make him a Sam and ease him into Mike to start, but i don't think it makes sense at this point. 

 

I like Josh Allen as a Lorax replacement. He gives us a better base defense and can rush the passer in the nickel downs. You get better at two level of the defense with one guy. You also get the chance to stay in base more if you want becuase Allen can be very good in coverage as well...a poor mans Khalil Mack if you will. 

 

But yes agreed that Tremaine played terrible today. His fits were very poor, but I think the upside is too great to give up on it at this point. The potential is still there, but he does need a ton of work. Bob Babich was huge for Urlacher's development (who was actually benched as a rookie before he blew up later that year) so I feel like Babich is the right guy to work with Tremaine. Gotta keep the faith! 

 

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Scouts love to use comps.

 

They can't find a comp for a MLB that young.......mmkay yeah.......but who are the comps for MLB's who lacked "rare instincts" but turned into players good enough to be remembered as one of the "five or six best" non-QB's in a draft?

 

There's a first time for everything I guess.

 

 

It seems that scout is implying that Tremaine lacks the rare instincts to make calls and have the green dot and stuff as a 20 year old. Those are instincts to make checks and line calls and all that jazz. The scouting reports don't say that he lacks instincts in his play, but that his technique is poor and gap discipline is poor, which is what I have seen. 

 

How can we as viewers really judge his "lack of instincts?" 

[billsfan_34]

9 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

I agree .  There are no more rookies at week 16 in the season and he played thus way since game one.  Getting run on for 273 yds has to raise doubts about ability and grasp of the d concepts.  I know he is not solely responsible but he really stands out for missing plays and rarely stands out for significant good play. What I believe tho is that This is a symptom of the whole process.  Terrible personnel decisions since preseason. A middle lb who looks better suited for the outside yet let’s keep forcing the square peg into the round hole since Since we ordained him as the next “ Luke K “ ! Then begin the season by astutely evaluating  Peterman as your starter with no vet presence on the squad ; no wrs brought in and we stuck with guys like kB , Holmes who were so good they get cut prior to seasons end ; Murphy who had been average to just totally absent most of the season; bring in Anderson who was also terrible amd wasted games before luckily ( perhaps) hitting on Barkley who we sign for 2 years after one game ; run stopping that was terrible early in season and  your Carolina man Star who is avg and has been mentioned as worst free agent signing perhaps in the league; sticking  with shady until he takes himself out with “ hamstring issues”  behind a terrible o line  hard headedly keeping someone starting based on prior years yet not performing well currently ( his worst season ) ; we can probably all agree on terrible o line , terrrible special teams , and I believe terrible d coordinator who also had to have playcalling taken from him at one point as he continues to be here despite his vaunted d who gives up tds at a 75% clip in the red zone ( but they give up so few yards ! Too bad yards aren’t  counted on the scoreboard as we continue blowout losses) ; irrational playcalling at times as Mcd can’t decide on whether to play aggressive or conservative even with playoffs long gone , wasted time outs , terrible clock management, 1/10 in challenges , undisciplined play resulting in being highly penalized, having new punters be the holder for your excellent kicker ( oh backfired again today ),sending your place kicker out for a long attempt soon after he was noticeably injured ;  perhaps a tendency to trade up or overvalue players that appear to be struggling to say the least as other teams seem to be better talent evaluators ( unfinished products I know but so far Edmonds , Zay Jones , and I pray not Allen , seem to have been valued when talent like Watson ,maholmes,  Dallas lb Vander whom ever,  are passed over )!   I give credit for Foster playing now and stealing McKenzie but this was done after the season was lost making me ask why couldn’t we identify a need for speed earlier and this good is offset by horrendous evaluation at the tight end position. 

 

This was a terrible performance on many levels today and I see no reason to believe just having more cap space is going to make a difference when poor evaluations and decision making is what we have as our measurable product so far. Who would  have thought Indy would be playing like this ( proof that coaching does matter and gosh I wish Frank was here and not Mcd) .  To top it off the prior 1-32 browns have a better roster and look to have a brighter future even with greggo than that mess we saw perform today.  Feelsbadman!  I just don’t see progress with the process In developing an identity as a team moving forward. ( oh, I forgot our starting cb retiring at halftime ,,,,, looking at all this in totality is scary). So having Edmonds playing mlb and struggling all year is a warning sign to me of more of the same play we witnessed today as our future. Disheartening performance today imho !  Apologize for the rant, really like Allen,  yet will he get the coaching he needs under this regime!?!  Perhaps the  worst pats team we have faced in quite awhile and we were never really in this game. 

Amen- finally someone who gets it. This current staff has done things that are so baffling. Peterman was a good example and making a 6’5 LB play the middle who cant get low and tackle is insane to me. I think McKenzie is a stud athlete but doesnt play smart and doesnt get extension with his hands. We did a poor job at the RB position this year also. Bla bla its all old hat really

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Tremaine was an inside linebacker at Virginia Tech. He wasn't a 4-3 Mike like he is now, but he was playing on the inside so he really was never moved. I've seen this suggested a bit the last few weeks and I just don't think it makes any sense. If Kuechly came aboard, well ***** yeah it makes sense. It made sense to maybe make him a Sam and ease him into Mike to start, but i don't think it makes sense at this point. 

 

I like Josh Allen as a Lorax replacement. He gives us a better base defense and can rush the passer in the nickel downs. You get better at two level of the defense with one guy. You also get the chance to stay in base more if you want becuase Allen can be very good in coverage as well...a poor mans Khalil Mack if you will. 

 

But yes agreed that Tremaine played terrible today. His fits were very poor, but I think the upside is too great to give up on it at this point. The potential is still there, but he does need a ton of work. Bob Babich was huge for Urlacher's development (who was actually benched as a rookie before he blew up later that year) so I feel like Babich is the right guy to work with Tremaine. Gotta keep the faith! 

 

 

 

I liked the Edmunds pick for this reason.    I thought HE was going to be that guy.

 

I'm down with drafting a pass rusher in round one even if he's more of an OLB.............the first couple rounds of the draft aren't for patching holes they are for getting impact players at big $ positions and next to QB no individual is worth more $ than the pass rusher...........but to keep the base 4-3 on the field the MLB has to be special even if the OLB's are extraordinary.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yea those were pretty bad examples.

 

Edmunds has struggled throughout. I've seen little to no progress since week 1. 

 

Have you noticed the multiple TO’s he's be a part of? 

 

Yeah, I know the guy has had a lot of missteps, but he’s capable of making plays. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

He was awful today.

 

Worst player on the field.

 

He's been poor most of the season and I think today was on par with or as bad as he's been all season.

 

Critically poor instincts........big target who can't get off blocks.........not strong or physical enough.......poor leverage........doesn't move well thru traffic........doesn't make plays in a scheme where he should be making a ton of them.

 

He's young........yeah........but this isn't the QB position.......good MLB's are almost without exception tremendous right out of the gate.

 

Don't be surprised if he's at OLB next season folks.

 

 

He didn't play well but I thought Star Louteleilei was brought in to eat up the opposition, I saw him pushed back on almost every play. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

What do you expect when you draft a 20-year old and stick him in the middle of the defense with no backup plan? 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

How can we as viewers really judge his "lack of instincts?" 

 

 

Watching them consistently and correctly react almost impossibly quickly?   Like all exceptional MLB's or RB's do at their craft?

 

Instinct = innate

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

Have you noticed the multiple TO’s he's be a part of? 

 

Yeah, I know the guy has had a lot of missteps, but he’s capable of making plays. 

 

 

That's what was so intriguing about him as an edge player.   He has the speed and reach to surprise people and knock the ball out of their hands the way he did on the FF he caused against Baltimore in the opener.

 

I wasn't so sure about putting him at MLB but if you'd have told me he'd have just one interception playing in this defense I'd have told you no way.

 

He gotten his hands on far less footballs than I expected.

 

 

 

 

[Bookie Man]

Edmunds is a more natural OLB imo. Has the skill set to be elite there. A true MLB who can plug holes and run around in the middle of that cover 2 zone is what this defense needs to be truly dominant. Maybe it's just his youth but I would love to see on the outside and see what he can do. 

[Pbomb]

Lotta people bashing edmunds and blaming him for the poor run defense against the pats. I agree he had a bad game but besides part of the jags game hasn’t our run defense been pretty good this year. If he is as bad as people say wouldn’t our run def suck all year. Or is it possible he had a bad game as a 20 year old rookie and people are way over reacting like always 

[dabills21]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Shazier is an interesting comparison but you ruined your take with the "...if he did(outplay Edmunds) then Stanford would be the starter" nonsense.

 

Matt Barkley outplayed Josh Allen........that Jets game was the best QB'd and best game for the Bills this season..........but he didn't remain the starter when Allen was healthy because the team was developing their first round pick.      Same with Edmunds.

Clearly Buffalo is developing their rookies.  But if the coaches thought Edmunds was "outplayed by Stanford" throughout the year, don't you think they would have eased him in...ie: various sub packages?

 

You are obviously biased against Edmunds.  All I'm suggesting is wait for these "don't be surprised if he's at OLB next year" hot takes. 

 

And worst player on the field.....jeesh.  Do you know what gap responsibilities each player had, on every single play? How about our offensive line play? what about our stellar team tackling? Punter, he played better than Edmunds too, right?

 

C'mon, you either have an agenda against the kid, were in love with another MLB in the draft, or just dillusional to single him out like that. 

 

Check back with me next offseason, we'll see which position he's at and how he's progressed.

[JoPar_v2]

Trial by fire. I couldn’t care less that Edmunds was thrown in there this year and struggled. By the time he’s 23 he will be a seasoned middle linebacker and not even approaching his prime. 

 

[dollars 2 donuts]

14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

100% agree.

 

Problem is the dude is regressing. He's been making the SAME mistakes since week 1 and has only missed one game due to injury.

 

Its a cause for concern right now and I don't think the Bills can risk going into a crucial 3rd season for this regime with him as their starting MLB. If he is they are going to have to have a very short leash.

 

 

Give him until week 18, then he should be fine.