Police Standards Are A Problem

[TakeYouToTasker]

15 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

As it currently stands, the basic requirements to kill American citizens are equal to that of a Walmart cashier. I advocate change and am not open to opposition of change but I am open to better ideas. I’ve thought it through and while my plan isn’t perfect it’s better than doing nothing. If you have a better plan please do share. 

 

I find LEOs to be a very odd quirk in both the liberal and conservative views of government.

 

All police are, is the enforcement arm of the executive branch.

 

Yet liberals, who constantly scream out for more government, and more laws condemn them, while conservatives, whom are otherwise naturally distrustful of expressions of power by the state, revere them.

 

Lost in this is the middle way in which police are both human (therefor fallible), and necessary to a society of laws.

 

Also lost is that police have a terribly dangerous job which, in much of it's execution, requires them to have complete trust and faith in their co-workers.  This is difficult to achieve in an environment in which those on the force don't protect and insulate each other from their failures as individuals, which necessarily pits them, on occasion, against the interest of those they are supposed to serve by creating a conflict of interest between their own self preservation instincts and their duty.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is.

[DC Tom]

5 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

I'm not sure what the solution is.

 

Dueling.

[The_Dude]

10 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

My problem with your plan is that it’s not only imperfect, but it doesn’t change anything. Getting a 4 year degree is very easy these days. All that does is build In another requirement that won’t actually solve the problem.

 

The real solution is to get politics out of police work. 

 

The problem is in the government officials that oversee judiciary. It’s the guy in Florida who was a little B word and didn’t go into the school and do his job of confronting the shooter. He got off without any issue, and was widely defended by politicians and media alike because they preferred their “guns kill people” narrative. 

 

I definitely don’t want to see police brutality anymore than anyone else - but I just don’t see educational standards as worth a whole lot.

 

 

This. 

 

I couldn’t disagree more. 

 

I believe in education. I believe it provides perspective. I believe it weeds certain types out. I believe that the amount of educated idiots I’ve met, compared to uneducated idiots speaks volumes in my favor. 

 

Further, if somebody can’t afford an education and wants to go into law enforcement, they can spend a few years in the military and get a GI Bill. 

 

Lastly, as a man who makes his living on skilled trade, I think it’s fantastic that you bring that up. We need more plumbers, mechanics and the like. And those are honorable professions. 

 

What we we don’t need is the remedial standards it takes to be a cop because we get way too many retards with guns. Something has gotta give. 

 

Lastly, I’ve thought of something that would possibly be a good compromise — hows about a paid, longer police academy? Seriously. Why not a 3/4 year police academy? Make the standards higher and pay cops what they should be making and make police termination incredibly easy. 

7 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

I'm not sure what the solution is.

 

My ideas are not perfect, but they’re better than inaction and of that I am sure. 

[TakeYouToTasker]

3 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Dueling.

 

[BringBackOrton]

3 hours ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I've noticed actually a few false dichotomies from both advocated and critics of police.

 

For advocates, the divide is that either you let the police do their job, or you let rampant lawlessness go free. If you listen to the most recent season of Serial, the head of Cleveland Police Officers union is asked, regarding the fatal shooting of a 12 year old with a BB gun (Tamir Rice) that zero mistakes were made and the only way to avoid fatal shooting of unarmed civilians is "we don't show up".

 

Zero amount of oversight is needed. Nothing needs to change, other than the public needs to hand over more money.

 

For critics, I've heard "There's no such thing as a good cop", in that there is no such thing as a good cop, because good cops allow for the existence of bad cops. Never mind the fact that they have zero ways to personally fix that.

 

I don't mean to go all Centrist here, but come on, there has to be a middle ground where we recognize that police ought to be better compensated for the risks they take, but that also with the increased authority and visibility, that they have to be held than a higher standard. When we see cases where you see police planting evidence when they think their body cams are off, or you see incidents where suspects are beaten to a bloody pulp, or a legal gun owner is shot and killed after informing the officer that he has his weapon in the car and the excuse is "I smelled the distinct odor or marijuana" or "I saw a bulge" and there are zero consequences, I don't understand how people don't see a need for higher standards and training.

 

Maybe, but we have heard from a lot of vets from Iraq and Afghanistan that the rules of engagement were figuratively beat into them. Proper threat escalation and determination was a vital part of their everyday life.

 

Unless you are saying that the US is more dangerous than Iraq or Afghanistan, I have to imagine that we could take that training and apply it here.

We had 6 troops die in Afghanistan in 2017.

 

We had 128 police officers die in the US in 2017.

 

 

[whatdrought]

2 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

I couldn’t disagree more. 

 

I believe in education. I believe it provides perspective. I believe it weeds certain types out. I believe that the amount of educated idiots I’ve met, compared to uneducated idiots speaks volumes in my favor. 

 

Further, if somebody can’t afford an education and wants to go into law enforcement, they can spend a few years in the military and get a GI Bill. 

 

Lastly, as a man who makes his living on skilled trade, I think it’s fantastic that you bring that up. We need more plumbers, mechanics and the like. And those are honorable professions. 

 

What we we don’t need is the remedial standards it takes to be a cop because we get way too many retards with guns. Something has gotta give. 

 

Lastly, I’ve thought of something that would possibly be a good compromise — hows about a paid, longer police academy? Seriously. Why not a 3/4 year police academy? Make the standards higher and pay cops what they should be making and make police termination incredibly easy. 

 

 

Don’t mistake my posts to mean that I disapprove of education- I don’t. I think it’s a great thing when it’s worth anything. I do think the schools that have much value these days are few and far between. Academia has become an arena rife with idiocy, lunacy, and emotion based drivel. I think that if someone can find a good school and invest their time, energy, and commitment to learning from it, then that’s great. But I’ve seen plenty of people who go into school and come out on the other side without any valuable additions to their personhood. 

 

So the problem with the idea of a broad requirement is that you’re going to get both sides. You’re going to get the kind that truly cared about school and improved themselves with it, and you’re going to get the ones who skated by. 

 

I completely agree about the skilled trades! That’s not where I ended up, but sometimes I wish it was. I always encourage young people to look hard at that before going to college. 

 

I personally havent been overly exposed to many bad cops. I’d be interested to see what percentage of LEO’s are actually bad cops. I think we get a lot of media exposure to the bad ones, where the good ones go unnoticed. 

 

Also, I like the academy idea. I think really the problem is that broad sweeping standards always lead to mixed bags- maybe more time training with actual cops and actual people who know how the job needs to be done would help weed out those unfit for the job. 

[The_Dude]

6 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

 

Don’t mistake my posts to mean that I disapprove of education- I don’t. I think it’s a great thing when it’s worth anything. I do think the schools that have much value these days are few and far between. Academia has become an arena rife with idiocy, lunacy, and emotion based drivel. I think that if someone can find a good school and invest their time, energy, and commitment to learning from it, then that’s great. But I’ve seen plenty of people who go into school and come out on the other side without any valuable additions to their personhood. 

 

So the problem with the idea of a broad requirement is that you’re going to get both sides. You’re going to get the kind that truly cared about school and improved themselves with it, and you’re going to get the ones who skated by. 

 

I completely agree about the skilled trades! That’s not where I ended up, but sometimes I wish it was. I always encourage young people to look hard at that before going to college. 

 

I personally havent been overly exposed to many bad cops. I’d be interested to see what percentage of LEO’s are actually bad cops. I think we get a lot of media exposure to the bad ones, where the good ones go unnoticed. 

 

Also, I like the academy idea. I think really the problem is that broad sweeping standards always lead to mixed bags- maybe more time training with actual cops and actual people who know how the job needs to be done would help weed out those unfit for the job. 

 

I too would like to know the good-bad cop ratio...if ever there was a way to judge and find that out. 

 

Nonetheless, I think we can both agree that there are bad cops and police reform standards is a conversation worth having. 

[whatdrought]

8 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

I too would like to know the good-bad cop ratio...if ever there was a way to judge and find that out. 

 

Nonetheless, I think we can both agree that there are bad cops and police reform standards is a conversation worth having. 

 

I can agree with that, though I do find myself wondering what the “acceptable” level of bad cops is. Not to mean they should be allowed to be left on forces, but rather just that filters only filter so much. 

 

The media disparity creates an issue in my brain of trying to figure out how much needs to be done. Good thing I’m not the decision maker here.

[TakeYouToTasker]

4 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

My ideas are not perfect, but they’re better than inaction and of that I am sure. 

 

Increased educational requirements and more competitive compensation would certainly lead to a larger talent pool, though I'm not sure it would solve the problem of a conflict of interest driven by the mutual exclusivity of self-preservation and duty.

 

I'm also not a proponent of a doctrine that when faced with a problem, any change from the status quo is a good change.  Many changes are worse, and don't actually work to address the issue of concern.

 

Again, I agree and acknowledge that there are problems.  I'm just not sure that what you've submitted solves them.

[keepthefaith]

1 hour ago, The_Dude said:

 

If at nothing else a 4-year degree will weed out a great deal of the lazy and stupid from achieving a “badge.” And by that alone it should be implemented. 

 

Hiring practices likely vary from one jurisdiction to the next but in this area hiring is competitive and 4 year degrees are common among police. 

 

Fortunately we don't seem to have many incidents in this country of police getting physical with 14 year olds but what we can't see in the video is what the officer requested of the thief before he took action.  Not defending the cop's actions but there might be more to the incident.  At some point of non-compliance police do have the right to subdue those being arrested. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by keepthefaith

[The_Dude]

1 minute ago, keepthefaith said:

 

Hiring practices likely vary from one jurisdiction to the next but in this area hiring is competitive and 4 year degrees are common among police. 

 

Fortunately we don't seem to have many incidents in this country of police getting physical with 14 year olds but what we can't see in the video is what the officer requested of the thief before he took action.  Not defending the cop's actions but there might be more to the incident.  At some point of non-compliance police do have the right to subdue those being arrested. 

The cops lucky I’m not the father because his badge wouldn’t save him from me. 

[whatdrought]

15 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

The cops lucky I’m not the father because his badge wouldn’t save him from me. 

 

It is pretty clear that the kid is breaking the law, and resisting the police.

 

i would hope that your child wouldn’t be in that situation to begin with. 

[TakeYouToTasker]

25 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

The cops lucky I’m not the father because his badge wouldn’t save him from me. 

 

Nor would any experience you have save you from the maelstrom to follow.

 

Violence is not always, or even usually the answer.  But, as a wise man once said here:  "When the only tool you have is a shotgun, every problem looks like a tranny."

Edited December 19, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[ExiledInIllinois]

I will side track a minute.  Why not keep all police officers teamed up with another.

 

That's right. All cops on the beat, etc... Have a partner.

 

 

Make it mandatory.  Always have a buddy.  Never work alone.

[keepthefaith]

41 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

The cops lucky I’m not the father because his badge wouldn’t save him from me. 

 

Before I would freak out as a parent I'd ask my son why he was robbing the vending machine, didn't stop after teachers told him to and what did the Police officer tell you to do before he took you to the ground? 

[TakeYouToTasker]

25 minutes ago, keepthefaith said:

 

Before I would freak out as a parent I'd ask my son why he was robbing the vending machine, didn't stop after teachers told him to and what did the Police officer tell you to do before he took you to the ground? 

 

When I was growing up, any time I was physically reprimanded by a teacher or other authority figure, I never would have dreamed of telling my parents about it because they would have punished me again.

 

And to your point, that's entirely correct. 

[The_Dude]

55 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

It is pretty clear that the kid is breaking the law, and resisting the police.

 

i would hope that your child wouldn’t be in that situation to begin with. 

 

A 14 year old kid stealing a candy bar does not deserve to be put in a position where he could be paralyzed. That was unnecessary and excessive force. He’s a child. I saw him being assaulted and not resisting anything. By the time he turned around, he was being assaulted. Illegally. 

47 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Nor would any experience you have save you from the maelstrom to follow.

 

Violence is not always, or even usually the answer.  But, as a wise man once said here:  "When the only tool you have is a shotgun, every problem looks like a tranny."

 

Do you mean tyranny? ?

[TakeYouToTasker]

Just now, The_Dude said:

 

A 14 year old kid stealing a candy bar does not deserve to be put in a position where he could be paralyzed. That was unnecessary and excessive force. He’s a child. I saw him being assaulted and not resisting anything. By the time he turned around, he was being assaulted. Illegally. 

 

A 5 year old stealing a candy bar deserves deference.

 

A 14 year old stealing a candy bar, after being confronted and told to stop by two authority figures, both legitimate in being vested that authority in that situation, deserves a harsh and swift lesson in both morality and respect.  It's clear they hadn't gotten that lesson elsewhere.

3 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

Do you mean tyranny? ?

 

Nope, I meant tranny.

 

The phrase I quoted is one of the funniest I've ever read here.

[keepthefaith]

6 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

When I was growing up, any time I was physically reprimanded by a teacher or other authority figure, I never would have dreamed of telling my parents about it because they would have punished me again.

 

And to your point, that's entirely correct. 

 

7th grade woodshop class, teacher was at least 6'7".  One student was special needs (but we called them something else back then).  Other student was making fun of the special needs kid in a bad way.  Teacher came over, lifted the jackass up by his shirt back of neck, his feet barely touching the ground.  Took him over to the other side of room and let him have it verbally.  Really let him have it. I'll bet they heard it on the other side of the school.  Guarantee you that story never was told at home to his parents.

[The_Dude]

8 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

A 5 year old stealing a candy bar deserves deference.

 

A 14 year old stealing a candy bar, after being confronted and told to stop by two authority figures, both legitimate in being vested that authority in that situation, deserves a harsh and swift lesson in both morality and respect.  It's clear they hadn't gotten that lesson elsewhere.

 

Nope, I meant tranny.

 

The phrase I quoted is one of the funniest I've ever read here.

 

When I was 14 we used to rob the vending machine after football practice. I doubt a cop would have touched up a middle class white kid like me like that. 

 

When I was in Iraq my first deployment we used to hand out money to Haj. I don’t know why, I don’t remember. We’d meet head Hajies at the hand-Haj-money place. It’d be me (5’6”, 140 lbs) and a few other bro’s trying to manage hundreds of Hajies all pushing and shoving and trying to get their way up front. Frequently I’d have to grab Haj by the neck or give Haj a good stiff kicking. On a few occasions I had to utilize my Haji-be-good stick and give one of the savages a good smacking. But NEVER did I get that rough with Haj unless Haj deserved it. $1.25 candy bar ain’t worth that. That’s just a white trash cop who needs to be put in his place. 

 

That cop is a coward. That boy is a boy. Shame on him. And if the kids dad makes a thing of it with the cop — he’ll get a round of applause from me. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by The_Dude