13 dropped balls all season?????

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

Yeah we have some wr issues but its not all on them either. Zay has improved from his rookie year to this year. Good chance he will improve again going into next year after playing with Allen for a full year, and next year Allen will get most reps in camp which will help. I fail to see why anyone is hating on Zay. 

 

Josh does need to make adjustments....  He still throws with too much velocity to often. He is getting better with accuracy but he is not quite there.

 

Too funny how sensitive people get, and only a few have there heads on straight 

 

 

You're correct that Allen needs to take something off some throws.  But it's also true that receivers have to learn to catch his zingers. It's a real advantage sometimes to get the ball there fast.  

 

The receivers will learn this next year, with Allen getting all the first team reps.

 

And DBs and LBs aren't used to catching balls with a lot of zip, so Allen's fastball also cuts down on INTs. 

 

Elway had that advantage.  

[Thriftygamer83]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm glad someone said this. Great catches are great because most receivers don't make them.  Most good receivers miss tough balls more often than they catch them.  

 

It makes no sense to call everything a receiver touches and doesn't  catch a drop.  

 

Take the throw over the middle that Clay didn't catch discussed early in this thread. You have to consider who the receiver is.  That is a ball I expect Zay to catch, but not necessarily Clay.  He isn't very athletic, and running at full speed across the field and going down for the ball is a tough play for him.  

 

The truth is that Clay just isn't an good modern tight end.  He's more blocker and less receiver than today's game demands. He fit the game 10 years ago better. 

 

Allen knows that throws to Clay have to be better than throws to some other guys.  

 

 

Seen Clay whiff on blocks which allowed for pressure and negative rushing yards.  Guy is completely broken at this point.  Can still remember fans cheering him after that it was routine to catch it and he had made catches like that before his head is somewhere else and he’s ultimately disinterested and unmotivated to live up to his pro-bowl and premier status.  

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

I'm sorry but the ball was right at waist level and the guy gets both hands on it.  If you're going to say based on that throw that Allen needs to be more accurate (and again people confuse accuracy with precision - that was an accurate throw) then there isn't a QB in the league that can be described as accurate (or more accurately- precise).  Rather than say Allen has to adjust to poor receivers, maybe the solution is to have a TE that can make routine catches.

Of course the solution is to have a better tight end.  But until you do, if you want a high probability of a catch, the throw has to be better.  

 

What you said is like saying it isn't Allen's fault when he overthrows a receiver when the receiver isn't fast enough to get to the ball. 

 

You can only play the game with the players you have.  When Clay is your tight end, you should expect those drops. 

[oldmanfan]

I have commented above on the Clay throw.  But to a larger point, if we're going to continue harping on one throw for a rookie QB and think that provides some kind of definitive evidence of his accuracy or lack thereof, this place is going to get ridiculous. and I'm as guilty as the next guy for doing so.

 

I think everyone should be able to agree on the following:

 

1.  He has shown a pretty fair amount of progress since his first start

2.  He looks better than most thought he would when he was drafted

3.  He has a ways to go and needs to improve in certain areas like touch on passes, reading defenses, being more precise with some throws.

4 .  We don't need to be thinking about another QB next year.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Seen Clay whiff on blocks which allowed for pressure and negative rushing yards.  Guy is completely broken at this point.  Can still remember fans cheering him after that it was routine to catch it and he had made catches like that before his head is somewhere else and he’s ultimately disinterested and unmotivated to live up to his pro-bowl and premier status.  

I agree he should make that catch and has in the past.  And I agree he was better earlier in his career.  Since he cMe into the league, the game has been asking tight ends to become better receivers, and he hasn't developed that way. He's maybe gone in the other direction.  

 

Ckay needs the ball just right if you're going to expect him to catch it. 

[WhyteDwarf]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course the solution is to have a better tight end.  But until you do, if you want a high probability of a catch, the throw has to be better.  

 

What you said is like saying it isn't Allen's fault when he overthrows a receiver when the receiver isn't fast enough to get to the ball. 

 

You can only play the game with the players you have.  When Clay is your tight end, you should expect those drops. 

 

I'm very interested to see where we are at with this argument next December. I certainly hope it's not the same argument!

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course the solution is to have a better tight end.  But until you do, if you want a high probability of a catch, the throw has to be better.  

 

What you said is like saying it isn't Allen's fault when he overthrows a receiver when the receiver isn't fast enough to get to the ball. 

 

You can only play the game with the players you have.  When Clay is your tight end, you should expect those drops. 

Shaw we usually agree but I can't with this one.  You are saying because your TE is not talented it's the QB's fault for not making him so?  Doesn't add up for me.

[T master]

13 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

The pass to Clay was catchable, but it was, most definitely, not perfect...in fact, in real time, it appeared low and away...but with a little more effort, the catch could have been made.

 

For the money they have been paying him there should be a lot more effort on his part !! ?

[LVGrown]

11 hours ago, Mango said:

 

 

We can’t expect to have a roster for of ODB’s, but they have to be better than they are now...

 

I can't imagine a roster full of ODB's would be very helpful for JA. BUT, they'd have to be better than what hes been working with. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by LVGrown

[Shaw66]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Shaw we usually agree but I can't with this one.  You are saying because your TE is not talented it's the QB's fault for not making him so?  Doesn't add up for me.

Oldman

 

Read what I said.  I wasnt talking about "fault."  I'm talking about the reality of the game.   It's a simple fact that Clay's catch radius is completely different from Odell Beckham's.  That means you're going to have higher completion percentage throwing to Beckham. 

 

If Allen is running that play and sees his tight end, hes going to try to make an accurate throw, like he tries on every play.  But he knows that if Clay is the tight end, his probability of completing an Inaccurate pass is lower than if it's Croom.  It's a question of reality, not fault.  

 

The simple fact is that Clay running across the field at full speed isn't good at catching balls outside a relatively small catch radius. 

[Thriftygamer83]

1 minute ago, T master said:

 

For the money they have been paying him there should be a lot more effort on his part !! ?

He is not interested or motivated to put himself at risk anymore.  With the touchdown he was scared of getting hit along with going across the middle.  Never lived up to his former premier glory and Miami got rid of him because they noticed his plummeting level of play due to his scaredy-cat play in practice.  

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, T master said:

 

For the money they have been paying him there should be a lot more effort on his part !! ?

True, but that's meaningless.  If you paid me that money, I still wouldn't have caught the ball.  

 

Talking about the money is about whether a GM's decision turned out well, not about what to expect from players on the field. 

[billsredneck1]

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

You're correct that Allen needs to take something off some throws.  But it's also true that receivers have to learn to catch his zingers. It's a real advantage sometimes to get the ball there fast.  

 

The receivers will learn this next year, with Allen getting all the first team reps.

 

And DBs and LBs aren't used to catching balls with a lot of zip, so Allen's fastball also cuts down on INTs. 

 

Elway had that advantage.  

i'm in the clay shoulda caught that camp. however, as to the bolded,  i think we'll see great improvement in touch and accuracy next year.  we are already seeing it a little more each week imo.  also,  once he gets better protection, he can go through his reads without having to jam the ball out at the last fraction of a second.

 

being able to throw that fast gives him a unique advantage of being able to milk a play just a little,  but when he gets the time and doesn't have to rush it he won't.

plus the game is going to slow down for him. i'm excited.

 

edit: one other factor going forward is getting wrs who get separation. i think a lot of times he needs that zip to fit tight windows and to negate the closing speed of the defender.

Edited December 19, 2018 by billsredneck1

[HeHateMe]

Clay deserves to go the way of Kelvin Benjamin..

[Billsfan1972]

How about watching all 32 starting QB's and what they get out of their receivers and the passes they throw.

 

I'll give you a hint......  Not everyone is on the money.  Allen's accuracy actually has really impressed me if I was to believe the draft experts. 

 

This was about the 13 dropped passes, but again look at the pass charts from the weekend.

 

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/pass

 

I just am appalled at the lack or support he gets from his receivers.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

11 hours ago, Mango said:

We can’t expect to have a roster for of ODB’s, but they have to be better than they are now...

 

Bills’ roster WRs 2018:  Less drama than ODB.  A LOT less catches.

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Oldman

 

Read what I said.  I wasnt talking about "fault."  I'm talking about the reality of the game.   It's a simple fact that Clay's catch radius is completely different from Odell Beckham's.  That means you're going to have higher completion percentage throwing to Beckham. 

 

If Allen is running that play and sees his tight end, hes going to try to make an accurate throw, like he tries on every play.  But he knows that if Clay is the tight end, his probability of completing an Inaccurate pass is lower than if it's Croom.  It's a question of reality, not fault.  

 

The simple fact is that Clay running across the field at full speed isn't good at catching balls outside a relatively small catch radius. 

I see your point.  Given that, then would you agree if he is so limited he should be on the bench?

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I see your point.  Given that, then would you agree if he is so limited he should be on the bench?

Oh, yeah. He's gotta go.  Allen needs a better option. 

 

But that's the future. Right now, you play with the guys you have. 

 

[ddaryl]

16 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

You're correct that Allen needs to take something off some throws.  But it's also true that receivers have to learn to catch his zingers. It's a real advantage sometimes to get the ball there fast.  

 

The receivers will learn this next year, with Allen getting all the first team reps.

 

And DBs and LBs aren't used to catching balls with a lot of zip, so Allen's fastball also cuts down on INTs. 

 

Elway had that advantage.  

 

Allens zingers are way more zing than most if not ALL QB's..... and those finger tip grabs are not as possible at those velocities. Coming out of break and grabbing a football that's already on its way is easier at lower velocity and that will even haunt the best finger tip catchers WR's in the game

 

As for Allen's speed cutting down on INT's well it goes both ways then.. Our WR's will be having issues at high velocity just like Opposing D's. Its a double edge sword, so its up to Allen to learn when to zip it with all he's got and when to take a few MPH off the throw in any given situation.

 

Yes a full Allen camp next year will help the O

 

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Face it, having an arm like that means that Josh can beat the defense anywhere on the field but also means his intended targets get less time to track and adjust to the ball and will have more difficulty actually catching it.

 

McKenzie hasn't had any issues catching his passes. Foster hasn't either since leaving the practice squad. Just Zay and Clay and Benjamin, and they all had trouble catching the ball last year too. We don't need to make excuses. They are just bad.