Holocaust Denial

[GG]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Possibly one of the dumbest quote of 2018?  Give me a break with this nonsense.  Anybody that compares Trump to Hitler does a disservice to the horrors suffered by the real victims of the Holocaust.  It's beyond stupidity.

There’s a long and deep history of self-hating Jews selling out the tribes.

[Wacka]

5 minutes ago, GG said:

There’s a long and deep history of self-hating Jews selling out the tribes.

Including George Soros.

[The_Dude]

7 minutes ago, Wacka said:

Including George Soros.

 

Oh, is he Jewish?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

https://www.dailywire.com/news/39444/ny-times-ignores-famed-authors-embrace-virulent-hank-berrien?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro

 

Being a Jew hater is ok...if you're black.

[Swill Merchant]

53 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Oh, is he Jewish?

Yes, and it is now considered anti-Semitic to criticize him by name.

[RochesterRob]

8 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

The "official start" of the "Final Solution" is usually considered to be January of 42, with the Wannsee conference.  Before that, deaths were incidental to either general brutality against the Jews, or as an effect of the Hunger Plan.  After that, you have the Reinhardt camps, Auschwitz, and the concerted effort to depopulate central Poland (the General Government).

 

I'm curious...what part of Europe was your grandmother from?  Generally, gunning down villagers was a common practice in the east more than the west, which goes back to my earlier post: there was little record-keeping east of central Poland, for that and many other reasons.

 

But like you say...far more complex than just the camp system.  To the east, you had the early anti-Jewish pogroms conflated with the anti-Bolshevik crusade, combined with native anti-Semitic uprisings in the Baltic states and western Ukraine (local auxiliary police often worked side by side with the Einsatzgruppen), all mixed together under different commands (local army and army group HQs, Wehrkreis, Organization Todt, several different branches of SS, the Bandenbekaempfung.  The experience in the west is much more straightforward: deportation, transport, incarceration, gassing at Auschwitz.  The western impression of industrialized murder is far from the practice of casual but extreme violence that characterized the Holocaust in the east.

 

Side note: subjects like this, by the way, are the reason that NO ONE SHOULD BE COMPARING TRUMP TO HITLER.  

  Hopefully, I can explain this clearly and accurately but it is all extremely complex.  Yes, you are correct that the Final Solution was recognized Reich-wide after Wannsee but there were high placed officials such as Himmler who had adopted it in mind without conference ahead of Wannsee.  This comes into play with Operation Barbarossa and the plan to deal with 800,000 people who would be considered enemies of the new state.  The executions were in the field versus being hauled to a camp.  Yes, the incident with my ancestors would have been in the East but not where my grandmother was from.  Her family prior to WWI was spread around Germany from roughly Berlin east into the Polish frontier with perhaps more going further east and some down into Austria so I could not tell you exactly where this took place.  I was told one time as a kid approximately when but don't remember anymore.  I'm thinking after the war was turning against the Nazi' when more and more people were considered enemies of the state than just Jews and Gypsies.  

[The_Dude]

26 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/39444/ny-times-ignores-famed-authors-embrace-virulent-hank-berrien?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro

 

Being a Jew hater is ok...if you're black.

 

....everything is ok if you're black. Or gay. 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

6 minutes ago, Swill Merchant said:

Yes, and it is now considered anti-Semitic to criticize him by name.

To criticize him? No.

 

To talk about how he is secretly conniving and using his wealth to hire fake protestors to disagree with Republican politicians, or spread a widely debunked rumor that he was a Nazi collaborator, that he planed and organized "the caravan" to help perpetuate "White Genocide"...all without a shred of proof...maybe a bit.

[Swill Merchant]

Just now, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

To criticize him? No.

 

To talk about how he is secretly conniving and using his wealth to hire fake protestors to disagree with Republican politicians, or spread a widely debunked rumor that he was a Nazi collaborator, that he planed and organized "the caravan" to help perpetuate "White Genocide"...all without a shred of proof...maybe a bit.

Case in point.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

9 minutes ago, Swill Merchant said:

Case in point.

 

Hey, show a fraction of evidence, and maybe you won't sound like you stroke off with a fake Charlie chaplain mustache on while reading Mein Kampf.

 

Come on, this is the board where people love Trump in spite of multiple fraud lawsuits, audio recordings bragging about sexual assault, repeated cases of him failing to pay workers and recordings of him constantly contradicting himself. Maybe...try to hold ol' Soros to half of that standard of trust.

[shrader]

8 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

Most of the Holocaust deaths would have been in the 1942-1944 time frame.  Three years, probably about 80% of the deaths.  That's more like 5000 deaths per day.  Treblinka alone, when it was operational (for 15 months), could have as many as 7000 victims a day (though that was beyond its capacity.  Treblinka was truly hell on earth - the stories from there are blood-curdling, even compared to Auschwitz.)

 

Auschwitz, at it's peak capacity in early 44, handled 12,000 victims a day. I have approximate numbers somewhere, but off the top of my head, the death toll for the entire year of 1940 was a few days' operation of Auschwitz in 44.  So no, the Holocaust as most people think of it (gassing of Jews) was not a decade-long affair, but concentrated in about three years.

 

How do they verify these numbers?  I don't mean to question them in any way, but they are truly mind numbing.  I think even the sickest of minds would have a hard time coming up with a realistic way to wipe out so many people.

[GG]

2 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

How do they verify these numbers?  I don't mean to question them in any way, but they are truly mind numbing.  I think even the sickest of minds would have a hard time coming up with a realistic way to wipe out so many people.

 

Perfect combination of German efficiency and human depravity

[RochesterRob]

5 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

How do they verify these numbers?  I don't mean to question them in any way, but they are truly mind numbing.  I think even the sickest of minds would have a hard time coming up with a realistic way to wipe out so many people.

  I don't see how they get verified myself.   At least in the sense of a true audit.  Also, people with an agenda are going to over-state or understate any numbers to serve their respective purposes.  Add to that the nuts at the top of the Third Reich who pulled desires out of their ass and underlings trying to satisfy them so no doubt there was "just put a high enough number on the paperwork to keep the nuts in Berlin happy" fudging of the numbers.  Still horrendous regardless if over estimated or under estimated to the true count.

[shrader]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  I don't see how they get verified myself.   At least in the sense of a true audit.  Also, people with an agenda are going to over-state or understate any numbers to serve their respective purposes.  Add to that the nuts at the top of the Third Reich who pulled desires out of their ass and underlings trying to satisfy them so no doubt there was "just put a high enough number on the paperwork to keep the nuts in Berlin happy" fudging of the numbers.  Still horrendous regardless if over estimated or under estimated to the true count.

 

Verify probably wasn't the right word.  Overstate/understate, there's going to be some base estimate somewhere with some science to it.  Tom knows some more detail on it, so I'm curious what they might be.  It would be even more information to show just how brutal it was.

[Swill Merchant]

26 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

 

Hey, show a fraction of evidence, and maybe you won't sound like you stroke off with a fake Charlie chaplain mustache on while reading Mein Kampf.

 

Come on, this is the board where people love Trump in spite of multiple fraud lawsuits, audio recordings bragging about sexual assault, repeated cases of him failing to pay workers and recordings of him constantly contradicting himself. Maybe...try to hold ol' Soros to half of that standard of trust.

Come with something resembling a reasonable argument and you shall receive the same in return. Arguments that rely on dog whistle theories supported by confirmation bias do not warrant serious consideration.

[DC Tom]

13 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

How do they verify these numbers?  I don't mean to question them in any way, but they are truly mind numbing.  I think even the sickest of minds would have a hard time coming up with a realistic way to wipe out so many people.

 

With great difficulty.

 

3.5 million is a hard, reliable floor, because it's based on Western census data pre- and post-war, and German records (they were surprisingly reliable at recording numbers of deaths in the camp system), and the two sources double-check each other fairly reliably.

 

Above that...it's important to note that the eastern and western experiences of the Holocaust were very different.  A lot more people were "killed in place" in the east, in many more ways by a lot more groups, in regions were the census data was unreliable or non-existent (e.g. the Ukraine).  To expand on Rob's example: when a German police battalion attached to a Wehrmacht Army HQ on "bandit hunting duty" casually torches and shoots all the inhabitants of a Jewish village that doesn't even exist in the Soviet census because it was ignored after half the occupants were killed by the NKVD in the early '30s...how does one count that?  Are they recorded as Soviet civilian deaths, partisan casualties, Holocaust casualties?  Usually, they'd be counted as all three by different people, if they're even recorded at all.  And multiply that by...maybe a couple tens of thousands of villages.  No one knows for sure, because there's no reliable record of villages destroyed.  

 

Given all that...there's no particularly accurate count of Holocaust deaths east of the Curzon line.  Any deaths, really - the estimates of Soviet war dead are largely based on the statistical impact on future population demographics in the Soviet Union, and range between 20 and 27 million.

49 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

To criticize him? No.

 

To talk about how he is secretly conniving and using his wealth to hire fake protestors to disagree with Republican politicians, 

 

It's not secret.  The funding is open, public, and can be traced fairly easily.  

[RochesterRob]

4 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

Verify probably wasn't the right word.  Overstate/understate, there's going to be some base estimate somewhere with some science to it.  Tom knows some more detail on it, so I'm curious what they might be.  It would be even more information to show just how brutal it was.

  The only way to put some science to it would be to have a census of every village affected prior to the war to establish a starting point.  But even that gets murky as not every casualty gets tied to a census figure.  Going back to to my grandmother's family I have little doubt that the ties to Eastern Europe were lost in the late days of the war and what came after.  Did not matter if you were a German who opposed the Nazi's Germans were treated very poorly at the conclusion of the war. It was advantageous to abandon old identities in order to move to the West even into  North America.  Some of my grandmother's family emigrated to Canada after the war but I don't have a timeline to know how it unfolded.  I think that they were so afraid of being trapped in Soviet occupied territory that I suspect some of their names today would be considered casualties of the war versus survivors if the records were checked.  

[BringBackOrton]

6 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Possibly one of the dumbest quote of 2018?  Give me a break with this nonsense.  Anybody that compares Trump to Hitler does a disservice to the horrors suffered by the real victims of the Holocaust.  It's beyond stupidity.

Don't you know that old saying?

 

"Better an honest genocidal maniac than a dishonest steak salesman?"

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

 I think that they were so afraid of being trapped in Soviet occupied territory that I suspect some of their names today would be considered casualties of the war versus survivors if the records were checked.  

 

More likely there'd simply be no record of their existence in the Old World.  Can't be counted as a casualty if you never officially existed to begin with.

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Don't you know that old saying?

 

"Better an honest genocidal maniac than a dishonest steak salesman?"

 

But you know who never chanted "Build a wall!"  Hitler!

[RochesterRob]

27 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

More likely there'd simply be no record of their existence in the Old World.  Can't be counted as a casualty if you never officially existed to begin with.

 

But you know who never chanted "Build a wall!"  Hitler!

  While true that if you had no record of existing in the East you could make a clean exit I don't know if that was in play for my example.  The Soviets wanted any German so long as that German could be of use to the Soviet state.  That a German had intellectual capability or material assets to "contribute" was what primarily mattered even if the nature was not initially consensual.  If you were more than a peasant you most likely had value to the Soviets even if they otherwise despised you.  How a person worked their way out of the East amounted to more than a single approach.  Some probably had assets to buy their way out while others could work the sympathy of the Allies with possibly faking their identities in the process.  I've heard different stories as to how restrictive or non-restrictive the Allies were to allow open movement from the East to West but it seems consistent that the Soviets wanted to keep anyone of value to them.