Holocaust Denial

[The_Dude]

As a student of history I’ve heard this was a thing. 

 

Ive never encountered anybody who claims that the holocaust is a fake Jewspiracy. Not one. Not online, and not in real life. 

 

Recently, I signed up for the free speech platform, Gab. My god — the whole community there is literally Nazis. 

 

I was trolled so hard I just deleted my account when I mocked a Nazi for his holocaust denial. I then found out I was swimming in an ocean of holocaust denying Nazis. 

 

Did you know that since Churchill’s WWII memoirs don’t cover the holocaust that’s proof it never happened? 

 

I support free speech — but I do not support nonsense. 

[DC Tom]

2 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

I support free speech — but I do not support nonsense. 

 

Then shut the ***** up.

[GG]

Even better than a Holocaust denial is the theory that espouses a Jewish - Nazi collaboration to murder the lesser Jews.

[The_Dude]

20 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Then shut the ***** up.

 

Well played, Tammy. Well played. 

17 minutes ago, GG said:

Even better than a Holocaust denial is the theory that espouses a Jewish - Nazi collaboration to murder the lesser Jews.

 

Thats a thing?

[DC Tom]

3 hours ago, GG said:

Even better than a Holocaust denial is the theory that espouses a Jewish - Nazi collaboration to murder the lesser Jews.

 

Hitler was a Zionist, though...

[Benjamin Franklin]

This thread is no fun without @LaDexter  

[Warren Zevon]

Just now, Benjamin Franklin said:

This thread is no fun

 

fixed that.

[Swill Merchant]

4 hours ago, The_Dude said:

As a student of history I’ve heard this was a thing. 

 

Ive never encountered anybody who claims that the holocaust is a fake Jewspiracy. Not one. Not online, and not in real life. 

 

Recently, I signed up for the free speech platform, Gab. My god — the whole community there is literally Nazis. 

 

I was trolled so hard I just deleted my account when I mocked a Nazi for his holocaust denial. I then found out I was swimming in an ocean of holocaust denying Nazis. 

 

Did you know that since Churchill’s WWII memoirs don’t cover the holocaust that’s proof it never happened? 

 

I support free speech — but I do not support nonsense. 

What does that mean?

[Tiberius]

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Here's a NY Rabbi denying the numbers killed:

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ny-rabbi-not-even-1-million-jews-killed-in-holocaust/

 

Is this like Global Warming/Climate Change®.  What does the consensus say?  I always thought it was 6-8 million Jews.  Now this Dude (not that The_Dude) comes along and says not even a million.

 

/smh

9 hours ago, GG said:

Even better than a Holocaust denial is the theory that espouses a Jewish - Nazi collaboration to murder the lesser Jews.

I never heard this.  Does it have to do with the crazy NY rabbi story I just posted above?

[sherpa]

10 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Here's a NY Rabbi denying the numbers killed:

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ny-rabbi-not-even-1-million-jews-killed-in-holocaust/

 

Is this like Global Warming/Climate Change®.  What does the consensus say?  I always thought it was 6-8 million Jews.  Now this Dude (not that The_Dude) comes along and says not even a million.

 

/smh

I never heard this.  Does it have to do with the crazy NY rabbi story I just posted above?

 

Weird claim.

About six million. That's what happened.

Changing the definition of what a Jew was in 2018 doesn't change the German view in 1940, and they used their definition to kill about six million.

Not the first time governments have gone after them, persecuted them, stole their property and a host other things.

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Here's a NY Rabbi denying the numbers killed:

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ny-rabbi-not-even-1-million-jews-killed-in-holocaust/

 

That's not all that unusual.  There's always fringe tribalists who espouse a narrow definition of their tribe.

 

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Is this like Global Warming/Climate Change®.  What does the consensus say?  I always thought it was 6-8 million Jews.  Now this Dude (not that The_Dude) comes along and says not even a million.

 

4-9 million.  The problem with the number is that once you get east of the Curzon line, the statistics get very murky.  The genocide was more informal, broader, diverse (in both perpetrator and victim), poorly tracked...and the Soviets had a vested political interest in muddying up the numbers for "victim's rights" purposes - in some estimates of WWII deaths, there's several million European dead "double counted" as Soviet war dead and Holocaust dead, by Soviet design.  

 

But even the smallest known reliable numbers - people west of the Curzon line, where populations were reliably counted and censused, and where the victims were carefully inventoried by the SS-TV - amount to some 3 million.  West of the Curzon line, it gets ambiguous because of pre-war pogroms, migrations, and deportations, because Nazi occupation policy was much more starkly brutal and murderous in that theater in general, because it was a theater where everyone was trying to kill everyone else ("German-occupied" Russia was less "occupied" than it was an ungoverned wasteland occupied by a patchwork of competing partisan groups), and because post-war migrations and deportations were genocidal in and of themselves.  But the numbers are anywhere from 1 to 5 million, depending on how you choose to define "Holocaust victim."

[Chef Jim]

A board full of Nazis?  Huh.  I figured you’d fit right in. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Chef Jim

[ExiledInIllinois]

13 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

That's not all that unusual.  There's always fringe tribalists who espouse a narrow definition of their tribe.

 

 

4-9 million.  The problem with the number is that once you get east of the Curzon line, the statistics get very murky.  The genocide was more informal, broader, diverse (in both perpetrator and victim), poorly tracked...and the Soviets had a vested political interest in muddying up the numbers for "victim's rights" purposes - in some estimates of WWII deaths, there's several million European dead "double counted" as Soviet war dead and Holocaust dead, by Soviet design.  

 

But even the smallest known reliable numbers - people west of the Curzon line, where populations were reliably counted and censused, and where the victims were carefully inventoried by the SS-TV - amount to some 3 million.  West of the Curzon line, it gets ambiguous because of pre-war pogroms, migrations, and deportations, because Nazi occupation policy was much more starkly brutal and murderous in that theater in general, because it was a theater where everyone was trying to kill everyone else ("German-occupied" Russia was less "occupied" than it was an ungoverned wasteland occupied by a patchwork of competing partisan groups), and because post-war migrations and deportations were genocidal in and of themselves.  But the numbers are anywhere from 1 to 5 million, depending on how you choose to define "Holocaust victim."

Just numbers-wise.  Say the standard:

 

7,000,000

 

Over the course of 10 years (is that too high or low?).  What is considered the Holocaust years defined, officially defined.

 

That puts, 1,900 Jews dying every day for 10 years straight.

 

Is that possible?

 

I am asking you because I don't even want to comb the internet to look for this.

 

Was the "death capability" there?  And... To hide half those numbers during non-war years (Allies innvolved)

 

I simply don't know.  Again, is it possible?

[RochesterRob]

2 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Just numbers-wise.  Say the standard:

 

7,000,000

 

Over the course of 10 years (is that too high or low?).  What is considered the Holocaust years defined, officially defined.

 

That puts, 1,900 Jews dying every day for 10 years straight.

 

Is that possible?

 

I am asking you because I don't even want to comb the internet to look for this.

 

Was the "death capability" there?  And... To hide half those numbers during non-war years (Allies innvolved)

 

I simply don't know.  Again, is it possible?

  As far as the Final Solution goes that started around mid-1941 and only stopped as the Allies closed in during 1944-45.  There were no doubt pre-Final Solution losses and no doubt that they were tabulated to some degree.  How much documentation was destroyed as Berlin was falling and the high ranking Nazi's were contemplating being brought up on charges of being war criminals is hard to say.  A number of losses were in the field versus the camps and who knows how well that was documented.  I heard stories from my grandmother who got her information from her family in Europe about Nazi's gunning down dozens of people in a village versus taking them away.  A couple of her (mine) relatives died in this manner.  I'm guessing that this was a standing order when transportation to the camps was not practical for some reason.  Not that I want to think about 1900 people dying everyday but there were a number of camps and I am sure that the "hours" were long.  Sad to think about.

 

 

  I did some reading after this post was made earlier tonight.  The Final Solution was far more complex in its operation than I had previously been aware of but that is just a matter of finding the right sources to get information.  Still a sad and tragic chapter in history.  Too bad the deportations although unfair did not happen as it would have spared many lives.  

Edited December 19, 2018 by RochesterRob

[DC Tom]

2 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  As far as the Final Solution goes that started around mid-1941 and only stopped as the Allies closed in during 1944-45.  There were no doubt pre-Final Solution losses and no doubt that they were tabulated to some degree.  How much documentation was destroyed as Berlin was falling and the high ranking Nazi's were contemplating being brought up on charges of being war criminals is hard to say.  A number of losses were in the field versus the camps and who knows how well that was documented.  I heard stories from my grandmother who got her information from her family in Europe about Nazi's gunning down dozens of people in a village versus taking them away.  A couple of her (mine) relatives died in this manner.  I'm guessing that this was a standing order when transportation to the camps was not practical for some reason.  Not that I want to think about 1900 people dying everyday but there were a number of camps and I am sure that the "hours" were long.  Sad to think about.

 

 

  I did some reading after this post was made earlier tonight.  The Final Solution was far more complex in its operation than I had previously been aware of but that is just a matter of finding the right sources to get information.  Still a sad and tragic chapter in history.  Too bad the deportations although unfair did not happen as it would have spared many lives.  

 

The "official start" of the "Final Solution" is usually considered to be January of 42, with the Wannsee conference.  Before that, deaths were incidental to either general brutality against the Jews, or as an effect of the Hunger Plan.  After that, you have the Reinhardt camps, Auschwitz, and the concerted effort to depopulate central Poland (the General Government).

 

I'm curious...what part of Europe was your grandmother from?  Generally, gunning down villagers was a common practice in the east more than the west, which goes back to my earlier post: there was little record-keeping east of central Poland, for that and many other reasons.

 

But like you say...far more complex than just the camp system.  To the east, you had the early anti-Jewish pogroms conflated with the anti-Bolshevik crusade, combined with native anti-Semitic uprisings in the Baltic states and western Ukraine (local auxiliary police often worked side by side with the Einsatzgruppen), all mixed together under different commands (local army and army group HQs, Wehrkreis, Organization Todt, several different branches of SS, the Bandenbekaempfung.  The experience in the west is much more straightforward: deportation, transport, incarceration, gassing at Auschwitz.  The western impression of industrialized murder is far from the practice of casual but extreme violence that characterized the Holocaust in the east.

 

Side note: subjects like this, by the way, are the reason that NO ONE SHOULD BE COMPARING TRUMP TO HITLER.  

[DC Tom]

3 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Just numbers-wise.  Say the standard:

 

7,000,000

 

Over the course of 10 years (is that too high or low?).  What is considered the Holocaust years defined, officially defined.

 

That puts, 1,900 Jews dying every day for 10 years straight.

 

Is that possible?

 

I am asking you because I don't even want to comb the internet to look for this.

 

Was the "death capability" there?  And... To hide half those numbers during non-war years (Allies innvolved)

 

I simply don't know.  Again, is it possible?

 

Most of the Holocaust deaths would have been in the 1942-1944 time frame.  Three years, probably about 80% of the deaths.  That's more like 5000 deaths per day.  Treblinka alone, when it was operational (for 15 months), could have as many as 7000 victims a day (though that was beyond its capacity.  Treblinka was truly hell on earth - the stories from there are blood-curdling, even compared to Auschwitz.)

 

Auschwitz, at it's peak capacity in early 44, handled 12,000 victims a day. I have approximate numbers somewhere, but off the top of my head, the death toll for the entire year of 1940 was a few days' operation of Auschwitz in 44.  So no, the Holocaust as most people think of it (gassing of Jews) was not a decade-long affair, but concentrated in about three years.

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, DC Tom said:

Side note: subjects like this, by the way, are the reason that NO ONE SHOULD BE COMPARING TRUMP TO HITLER.  

Yeah... I guess you are right.  Hilter was a psychopath, Trump a con-man.

 

Ouch:

 

https://m.jpost.com/US-Elections/Donald-Trump/Jewish-author-Dont-compare-Trump-to-Hitler-it-belittles-Hitler-467701

 

Jewish author and screenwriter Shalom Auslander shot down comparisons of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler in a Washington Post op-ed published Tuesday, claiming that such comparisons "belittle" Hitler...

 

...Auslander, who refers to himself as "a New York Writer Liberal Jew, the scariest Jew of all," wrote in the Postop-ed that the Trump-Hitler comparisons bother him "not because it belittles the deaths of millions of innocents, but because, frankly, it belittles Adolf Hitler."...

 

...Auslander stressed that he was by no means praising Hitler. "No. I’m saying that if you absolutely had to find just one thing to say about Hitler that was positive — if you could somehow siphon out all the festering, maggot-infested sewage that filled his soul to reveal one razor-thin sliver to point to in his favor — you could possibly say, well, at least he believed what he said...Which you can’t say about Donald Trump."

 

 

[Doc Brown]

59 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yeah... I guess you are right.  Hilter was a psychopath, Trump a con-man.

 

Ouch:

 

https://m.jpost.com/US-Elections/Donald-Trump/Jewish-author-Dont-compare-Trump-to-Hitler-it-belittles-Hitler-467701

 

Jewish author and screenwriter Shalom Auslander shot down comparisons of Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump to Adolf Hitler in a Washington Post op-ed published Tuesday, claiming that such comparisons "belittle" Hitler...

 

...Auslander, who refers to himself as "a New York Writer Liberal Jew, the scariest Jew of all," wrote in the Postop-ed that the Trump-Hitler comparisons bother him "not because it belittles the deaths of millions of innocents, but because, frankly, it belittles Adolf Hitler."...

 

...Auslander stressed that he was by no means praising Hitler. "No. I’m saying that if you absolutely had to find just one thing to say about Hitler that was positive — if you could somehow siphon out all the festering, maggot-infested sewage that filled his soul to reveal one razor-thin sliver to point to in his favor — you could possibly say, well, at least he believed what he said...Which you can’t say about Donald Trump."

 

 

Possibly one of the dumbest quote of 2018?  Give me a break with this nonsense.  Anybody that compares Trump to Hitler does a disservice to the horrors suffered by the real victims of the Holocaust.  It's beyond stupidity.

[The_Dude]

9 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

That's not all that unusual.  There's always fringe tribalists who espouse a narrow definition of their tribe.

 

 

4-9 million.  The problem with the number is that once you get east of the Curzon line, the statistics get very murky.  The genocide was more informal, broader, diverse (in both perpetrator and victim), poorly tracked...and the Soviets had a vested political interest in muddying up the numbers for "victim's rights" purposes - in some estimates of WWII deaths, there's several million European dead "double counted" as Soviet war dead and Holocaust dead, by Soviet design.  

 

But even the smallest known reliable numbers - people west of the Curzon line, where populations were reliably counted and censused, and where the victims were carefully inventoried by the SS-TV - amount to some 3 million.  West of the Curzon line, it gets ambiguous because of pre-war pogroms, migrations, and deportations, because Nazi occupation policy was much more starkly brutal and murderous in that theater in general, because it was a theater where everyone was trying to kill everyone else ("German-occupied" Russia was less "occupied" than it was an ungoverned wasteland occupied by a patchwork of competing partisan groups), and because post-war migrations and deportations were genocidal in and of themselves.  But the numbers are anywhere from 1 to 5 million, depending on how you choose to define "Holocaust victim."

 

From my understanding the most conservative estimate is over 4 million. 

 

Ive seen bickering on “what counts” though. Are villagers shot in the street victims of the holocaust? I say yes — but I’ve seen people try arguing they belong in another category of some kind. Not to me that it matters. End result was the same.