Fascinating about Josh Allen’s critics is they never played the position

[nedboy7]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

No one is saying you can't criticize Allen.  But 90% of what passes for criticism on TBD about Allen is either nitpicking or agenda driven.  No one is complaining about posters calling Allen to task over some of his dumber throws.  But this is a Buffalo Bills Message Board and people should be biased towards the positive regarding Allen - not the negative.  

 

Biased towards the positive?  Like last year when we made the playoffs?  I think you are understanding my point. 

[Phil The Thrill]

45 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

If you look at Josh’s biggest critics the ones in the media who are most vocal in their dislike of him they are non qbs or people who have never played the game and are just analytics guys..but most of his biggest supporters Dilfer, Miller, Simms, Quinn, Romo etc..are guys who played the position just find interesting that a kid with the insane skill set is this polarizing 

 

He has a very good point.  The people who are Allen’s loudest critics have never played 1 down of college of NFL football.  Nor have the ever worked in an NFL scouting Department.  This is what I’m saying about having an informed vs uninformed opinion.  

 

- Jon Ledyard

- Joe Marino

- Bill Barnwell

- Cian Fahey

- Mike Schopp (never played any sports)

- Aaron Schatz 

- Jerry Sullivan

- @WhyteDwarf

Edited December 18, 2018 by Phil The Thrill

[formerlyofCtown]

4 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Interesting observation. I would counter that most former QBs tend to treat up and coming QBs with kid gloves the same way former coaches tend to do with current coaches. 

 

Instead of Allen critics and Allen supporters, why can't it just be about discussing his play? If you're not able or willing to entertain passing stats as a way to understand and compare QB play that probably says more about you and your ignorance to numbers than it does anything else. There's a reason we've evolved beyond just the eye test. As far as I've heard, everyone and every measurement we have all say the same thing: talented but inaccurate.   

Actually the whole picture says that his WRs need to catch more passes that hit them in the hands and the Oline needs to be upgraded.  He needs to throw with touch a little more often but he's not inaccurate.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, nedboy7 said:

 

I am excited. That doesn’t mean you can’t criticize him.  Thats not my point.  What’s the point of this thread? Some experts pointed out some flaws.  The potential frencheyes doesn’t have flaws?  Stop taking criticism as a personal attack. You know like calling me a child. 

 

Yes. Word games. Continue. 

 

I also criticize him. He was my 4th choice! (What do I know?) I’m not sure, but I’m encouraged. We will all wait and see. 

 

Words are actually important. What they mean, how and when they are used. It’s not a game, it’s called “communication”. Don’t blame other people if you don’t like how it turns out for you. 

[nedboy7]

Just now, Augie said:

 

I also criticize him. He was my 4th choice! (What do I know?) I’m not sure, but I’m encouraged. We will all wait and see. 

 

Words are actually important. What they mean, how and when they are used. It’s not a game, it’s called “communication”. Don’t blame other people if you don’t like how it turns out for you. 

 

Don’t act like a child!  

i didn’t call you a child! 

I’m excited too. Maybe this coach can get his ***** together and not enter the season w 2 rookies. 

 

[formerlyofCtown]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I never said anything of that. I was just asking you a question because it seemed like a pretty negative post by you. You answered my question 

Can we get back to football now guys.

[Phil The Thrill]

This is what Aaron Schatz of Football Outsiders said.  I can agree that the jury is out on Allen, but you can’t argue that his play this season exceeded this very bleak outlook last Spring:

 

“A parody of an NFL quarterback prospect, Allen was abysmal in 2017 en route to not even making an all-Mountain West team. We don't want to say there's absolutely no chance he'll ever be good – he's got a deep ball, he's got some ability to make plays on the run and under pressure – but there is zero empirical evidence to support him becoming a reasonable NFL starting quarterback. And if you thought the excuses for his supporting cast were bad in Wyoming, wait till you see this Bills offense. ... Allen is the battleground that old scouts are going to die on, whether they're right about it or, as all evidence suggests, wrong about it."

 

https://buffalonews.com/2018/07/24/josh-allen-take-football-outsiders-bills-almanac-scouts/

 

 

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Can we get back to football now guys.

What? I asked him a football question and that’s what all my posts here have been referring too.. He legit answered my question. Wasn’t being sarcastic or anything

[VW82]

9 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Actually the whole picture says that his WRs need to catch more passes that hit them in the hands and the Oline needs to be upgraded.  He needs to throw with touch a little more often but he's not inaccurate.

 

It would really help if all that happened. Again, he's super talented and he needs help. But to this point of the season, and even if we just isolate these last four games, Allen is still near the bottom of the NFL in whatever version of adjusted completion percentage you want to use. Even accounting for the drops, and the throwaways, and the fact he throws downfield more often. He's still much less accurate than most everyone else, at least statistically. It's a fact.

Edited December 18, 2018 by VW82

[formerlyofCtown]

31 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

What? I asked him a football question and that’s what all my posts here have been referring too.. He legit answered my question. Wasn’t being sarcastic or anything

K.  

Edited December 18, 2018 by formerlyofCtown

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

Don’t act like a child!  

i didn’t call you a child! 

I’m excited too. Maybe this coach can get his ***** together and not enter the season w 2 rookies. 

 

Do you comprehend the distinction between “childlike” and “childish”? They might seem very similar.  Language has many nuances, and some of that may be lost on you. 

 

But, despite apparent differences,  I wish you all the best, and pray for Happy Hollidays for you and yours! 

[nedboy7]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

Do you comprehend the distinction between “childlike” and “childish”? They might seem very similar.  Language has many nuances, and some of that may be lost on you. 

 

But, despite apparent differences,  I wish you all the best, and pray for Happy Hollidays for you and yours! 

 

You too my friend. We are all Bills fans. So don’t take my words so seriously and I won’t take yours. I like most of your opinions. Doesn’t mean we can’t disgree on things. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by nedboy7

[The Frankish Reich]

But .... do your ex-QB commenters ever have anything critical to say about any NFL QB?  Sure, they may be critical of a bad decision here, a poor throw there, etc., but when did a Steve Young or even a Tony Romo ever say of an NFL rookie, "I just don't think this guy has what it takes to make it in this league." Answer: never. It's not the way they see the world, or maybe they're just too used to censoring their thoughts. Example: which former QB ever said that EJ Manuel will never make it as an NFL starter?

[78thealltimegreat]

On the board we get to argue the merits of Josh’s play good and bad but I was referring to the media who cover the NFL for a living...like when EJ was drafted I would hear a few National qbs saying they where iffy on the pick but with Josh it’s just odd to see qbs really like him but non qbs like a Bart Scott or Bill Barnwell just trash the kid to no end 

[CincyBillsFan]

15 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

This is what Aaron Schatz of Football Outsiders said.  I can agree that the jury is out on Allen, but you can’t argue that his play this season exceeded this very bleak outlook last Spring:

 

“A parody of an NFL quarterback prospect, Allen was abysmal in 2017 en route to not even making an all-Mountain West team. We don't want to say there's absolutely no chance he'll ever be good – he's got a deep ball, he's got some ability to make plays on the run and under pressure – but there is zero empirical evidence to support him becoming a reasonable NFL starting quarterback. And if you thought the excuses for his supporting cast were bad in Wyoming, wait till you see this Bills offense. ... Allen is the battleground that old scouts are going to die on, whether they're right about it or, as all evidence suggests, wrong about it."

 

https://buffalonews.com/2018/07/24/josh-allen-take-football-outsiders-bills-almanac-scouts/

 

 

Ouch.  I never saw that quote before.  Man it seems a bit hyperbolic.

[BlueandRed]

Let’s not put the horse before the Carriage.  

 

Yes. We are excited and what he is showing with no talent help around him. 

 

He needs more time to prove he is a franchise qb. 

 

Id say, be patient until end of next year. The negativity should end then, if he is the real deal. 

[row_33]

I can’t make a comment on music or art or large skyscrapers or pro athletes?

 

the OP violates this every hour of the day with judgments 

[oldmanfan]

22 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

It would really help if all that happened. Again, he's super talented and he needs help. But to this point of the season, and even if we just isolate these last four games, Allen is still near the bottom of the NFL in whatever version of adjusted completion percentage you want to use. Even accounting for the drops, and the throwaways, and the fact he throws downfield more often. He's still much less accurate than most everyone else, at least statistically. It's a fact.

Actually he's not.  And I and others have explained numerous things the fallacy of completion percentage as a measure of accuracy.  But you refuse to accept this because it interferes with your bias that he's bad.  

[Phil The Thrill]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

I can’t make a comment on music or art or large skyscrapers or pro athletes?

 

the OP violates this every hour of the day with judgments 

 

I think he’s illustrating the difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion.  He makes a valid point

[formerlyofCtown]

34 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

It would really help if all that happened. Again, he's super talented. But to this point of the season, and even if we just isolate these last four games, Allen is still near the bottom of the NFL in whatever version of adjusted completion percentage you want to use. Even accounting for the drops, and the throwaways, and the fact he throws downfield more often. He's still much less accurate than everyone else, at least statistically. It's a fact.

Statistics win MVP, ROY and things of that nature.  They dont win Championships.  For example you could argue that the Lions out played us statistically but who got the W.

However, I forgot Allen was suppose to win the MVP this season.  Ive seen some pretty bad drops this season but what is really important is making adjustments week to week as you could see he was throwing with touch a little more this week.  If you havent already done so with your prescious stats why dont you take a look at Peyton Mannings Rookie stats.  Goff didnt look so pretty either.  Its the growth thats important with a young QB.  Rodgers took a while to develope as did Brees.  If you get the stats to appear early then great.  Baker Mayfield was the first QB taken for a reason He was ready to roll and had a pretty high ceiling.  The rest were not quite ready to roll.  Allen had the highest ceiling and it looks like he may get there.  You see thats what those non-statistics called intangables say.  They say wether a person will meet their potential.  

 

Tom Brady was a sixth round draft pick for a reason but he is an example of someone that completely maxed out his potential.  I really think we got Tom Brady with a John Elway type of ceiling.  I really believe that is what the former QBs see in him that the regular media and dumber former football players dont.  Ive been part of a locker Room Ive played football.  There is more emotion and passion in football than any other sport and that is why analitics will never be 100% effective in the NFL.  The intangables will always be important.  Any given Sunday has to do with heart and shear will.  If the stats guys dont think it has a lot to do with an NFL career I got news for them.

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by formerlyofCtown