The Trump Shutdown

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 If they do a deal that cuts out Pelosi and Schumer right before they take leadership roles... that would be epic trolling.

[Buffalo_Gal]

White House Meeting on Border Wall Funding

House Speaker Paul Ryan and Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy says the president will not sign a stop-gap funding bill without his $5 billion request for a border wall. A partial government shutdown will begin Friday at midnight without a deal.

 

[Tiberius]

 

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:23 AM, Swill Merchant said:

That's a rather conclusory argument.

Well, here's the "libertarian argument" I had earlier that you seem to have missed

 

• A massive government works project
• Will require the seizure of land from private citizens via eminent domain
• infringes state's rights, as the federal government will be overriding the enumerated powers that they are supposed to have regarding enforcement
• even if it is built, it will require continual manpower assignment and maintenance
• you can do far better national security policing by taking equivalent funds and giving them to intelligence agencies and law enforcement
• a static emplacement like a wall is useless against catapults shooting drugs over the border, vast networks of cartel tunnels, air drops, naval crossings, smuggling through our ports and is just an god awful waste of money for an extremely limited and stationary structure.

And then I'll get into the "lefty liberal" parts where you have pesky things like "statistics" that tell you that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes. Here's the argument from the Cato institute, a libertarian think tank: https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-reform-bulletin/criminal-immigrants-their-numbers-demographics-countries

 

So, in short, it's an expensive thing that won't do what it's designed to do, and the thing that it's supposed to be protecting us from is not an issue in the first place.

 

 

Yeah...this is what Trumptards think it's worth shutting down the government for.

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Yeah...this is what Trumptards think it's worth shutting down the government for.

 

 

Schumer shut the government down for non citizens... and you didn't say a word. 

 

Your partisanship is showing again.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

2 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 If they do a deal that cuts out Pelosi and Schumer right before they take leadership roles... that would be epic trolling.

Lol, you think that people might seriously consider that.

 

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Schumer shut the government down for non citizens... and you didn't say a word. 

 

Your partisanship is showing again.

I would feel worse for that, had there not been a bipartisan compromise offered, one that met Trumptard's demands, only he threw one of his patented little temper tantrums.

 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/01/24/white-house-the-grahamflakedurbin-immigration-proposal-is-dead-to-us-n2438713

 

lol. The brain parasites that riddle you guys must be hitting your memory centers extra hard

[Deranged Rhino]

16 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I would feel worse for that, had there not been a bipartisan compromise offered, one that met Trumptard's demands, only he threw one of his patented little temper tantrums.

 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/01/24/white-house-the-grahamflakedurbin-immigration-proposal-is-dead-to-us-n2438713

 

lol. The brain parasites that riddle you guys must be hitting your memory centers extra hard

 

That's a nonsense answer... from a nonsense poster who has yet to offer anything of value down here. 

 

You're terrible at this.

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Well, here's the "libertarian argument" I had earlier that you seem to have missed

 

That's not a strong libertarian argument at all.

 

You should stop making arguments from authority (which is a logical fallacy), especially when you don't understand the positions you're arguing from authority on.

 

A massive government works project

 

Libertarians believe that the government has proper and well defined Constitutional authorities.  These are derived from the belief that rights are sacrosanct, and nation states are the best way to enshrine their protection from outside aggressors.

 

As such, the proper province of a federal government is to define and protect borders, and to define the rules for residence and citizenship.

 

And so, while they agree that large scale government action is less than ideal, they understand that there is no other entity capable of this primary necessary function of the  nation state.  As such, it is appropriate for the federal government to undertake this role, just as it does in maintaining our military.

 

Will require the seizure of land from private citizens via eminent domain



 

The provision of the Fifth Amendment which states "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation" was put in place for exactly this reason.  There is no clearer Constitutional case for the seizure of private land for public use than the defense of national borders.

 

infringes state's rights, as the federal government will be overriding the enumerated powers that they are supposed

to have regarding enforcement

 

The states do not enjoy any rights in regards to naturalization, immigration, or the protection of sovereign national borders.  These are federal duties, as logically these controls must be uniform as they are among the foundational principals which define what a nation is.

 

even if it is built, it will require continual manpower assignment and maintenance

 

This is not a libertarian argument in any way.  Again, this is part of naturalization, immigration, or the protection of sovereign national borders, which fall under the purview of the federal government.  You cannot have a nation unless you control these things, as they are foundational. 

 

you can do far better national security policing by taking equivalent funds and giving them to intelligence agencies and law enforcement

 

This is a bare assertion and has nothing to do with a libertarian argument.

 

a static

emplacement like a wall is useless against catapults shooting drugs over the border, vast networks of cartel tunnels, air drops, naval crossings, smuggling through our ports and is just an god awful waste of money for an extremely limited and stationary structure

 

Again, this has nothing to do with a libertarian argument; and disregards that fact the wall, no matter how stationary and single purposed, serves an expressly libertarian purpose.  It makes human trafficking much more difficult, and strikes a massive blow against modern day human slavery. 

 

[boyst]

1 hour ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I would feel worse for that, had there not been a bipartisan compromise offered, one that met Trumptard's demands, only he threw one of his patented little temper tantrums.

 

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/01/24/white-house-the-grahamflakedurbin-immigration-proposal-is-dead-to-us-n2438713

 

lol. The brain parasites that riddle you guys must be hitting your memory centers extra hard

He's your president for 6 more years.  You have 6 more years of that ass being tore up.  Might as well grab some lube, because you'll need it if you're this butthurt.

[TH3]

20 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

He's your president for 6 more years.  You have 6 more years of that ass being tore up.  Might as well grab some lube, because you'll need it if you're this butthurt.

You seem triggered broflake .........go find your safe place and relax!

[The_Dude]

Trump is doing nothing less than ensuring I vote for him in 2020. I dislike his foreign policy but his domestic policy is very much to my liking. 

 

Shut it down! Shut it down! 

[DC Tom]

50 minutes ago, TH3 said:

You seem triggered broflake .........go find your safe place and relax!

 

Gotta admit...first time I've seen "broflake," and it's pretty good... 

[Tiberius]

Oh brother, building a big stupid, useless, expensive wall doesn't violate libertarian principles?? 

 

Ha ha, I love libertarians! 

[plenzmd1]

so Fox and friends said negative words about Trump not shutting down the government and now he is reversing course? Is Steve Doocy in fact..... POTUS?

[B-Man]

7 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Gotta admit...first time I've seen "broflake," and it's pretty good... 

 

Tom, if I may ask.................

 

Every year when we have our "shut down the government" thread, you point out that a certain percentage of the government is not really affected,

 

and that all essential services continue unabated............what was that percent ?

 

 

 

 

 

.

[DC Tom]

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

Tom, if I may ask.................

 

Every year when we have our "shut down the government" thread, you point out that a certain percentage of the government is not really affected,

 

and that all essential services continue unabated............what was that percent ?

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

I don't exactly know.  Seems to me like 90%...but my offices are somehow never impacted (my current project is self-funded, so not subject to budget fights), so my perception is certainly biased.

 

Based on traffic patterns during shutdown, I'd say it's closer to 40%.  There's a lot that's considered critical or national security infrastructure that doesn't get shut down, including some you might not even think of (USDA inspectors, for example - plants can't run without an inspector on-site, so the entire meat industry would come to a screeching halt if FSIS shut down.) 

 

There's also a slight misunderstanding that it's not just civil servants being furloughed, it's non-critical government projects being suspended, meaning the contractors get furloughed as well.  HHS's 2018 contingency puts have the federal employees on furlough...but that could very well represent 2/3 of their projects, involving who knows how many contractors, plus downstream effects (e.g. researchers unable to start projects because of delayed grants.)

 

It all gets very messy and ridiculous.  But 40%, head-count-wise, is probably a good rule of thumb.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

Chuck and Nancy are at the mics now announcing if they made a deal (sounds like they didn't). 

Chuck and Nancy's press conference is hilarious.

[TH3]

7 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

Chuck and Nancy are at the mics now announcing if they made a deal (sounds like they didn't). 

Chuck and Nancy's press conference is hilarious.

Well....the 2013 shutdown gave us the budget parameters that greatly slowed deficit spending....that DT and the GOP recently blew up....and whether this is shutdown or not we get an inefficient use of funds that we were not to pay for.....but at least find it funny

[Deranged Rhino]

 Chuck is now complaining about the generals leaving - after two years of fear mongering over "why has Trump surrounded himself with generals?!" 

 

Trump has broken both of these people. And it's wonderful to see.