jrober38 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, Koko78 said: I actually rather like this analogy. The Democrat's current position is that since there's no evidence the fire extinguisher will completely eliminate the fire, you shouldn't try. As for your second paragraph, I agree. Hyperbole aside, a wall is going to help the multitude of problems on the southern border, but standing alone will not be a solution. Agreed. The Democrats position is absurd. Saying it's too expensive when the US Budget is like $2 trillion is ridiculous. With that said, they've heavily weighed the pros and cons, and they've made a calculated decision where they essentially are conceding the 2020 election if they let Trump build his wall. Without the construction of his wall, the conservative pundits will fracture off, and his base won't show up to vote and he'll get obliterated at the polls in a landslide. The Dems have no platform, and because they can't run on the economy, or health care, the only thing they've got is trying to disappoint Trump's base, and they'll go to any length to get that done. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: So you hate them. At least our Browndoggle here in California. And that is in honor of our illustrious ex-Governor whose idea this was not the people you THINK we don't like. Why do you think we dislike people from the other side of our southern border? ...because you said the problem was brown people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: ...because you said the problem was brown people? And you believed be me because.................... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Agreed. The Democrats position is absurd. Saying it's too expensive when the US Budget is like $2 trillion is ridiculous. With that said, they've heavily weighed the pros and cons, and they've made a calculated decision where they essentially are conceding the 2020 election if they let Trump build his wall. Without the construction of his wall, the conservative pundits will fracture off, and his base won't show up to vote and he'll get obliterated at the polls in a landslide. The Dems have no platform, and because they can't run on the economy, or health care, the only thing they've got is trying to disappoint Trump's base, and they'll go to any length to get that done. If they had anyone at the DNC with an IQ over 60, they'd horsetrade full funding for the wall/border security in exchange for DACA and amnesty/path to citizenship for adult illegals. That allows them to claim that they were the adults in the room, that they care about our nation's security, and that they really gave up nothing to protect the vulnerable Dreamers and migrants. We all damn well know Trump will give away the store to claim a an easily-negated victory on the wall funding. Of course, the dumbschiffs would rather just paint themselves into a corner, then cry collusion. Edited January 10, 2019 by Koko78 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Agreed. The Democrats position is absurd. Saying it's too expensive when the US Budget is like $2 trillion is ridiculous. With that said, they've heavily weighed the pros and cons, and they've made a calculated decision where they essentially are conceding the 2020 election if they let Trump build his wall. Without the construction of his wall, the conservative pundits will fracture off, and his base won't show up to vote and he'll get obliterated at the polls in a landslide. The Dems have no platform, and because they can't run on the economy, or health care, the only thing they've got is trying to disappoint Trump's base, and they'll go to any length to get that done. It's not "too expensive" It's useless. It doesn't stop the flow of people. It doesn't stop the flow of drugs. It won't lower crime No one knows if it will stop human trafficking Building it means forcibly selling land from private citizens It is going to continue to be a massive expenditure to maintain and staff. In short, if you want to wave your dick around about national security, put that money into things that might, I don't know, actually work, like hiring more border agents. Getting more lawyers to process asylum claims. Rework the path the legal residency and/or citizenship which reflects the reality of the situation and establish a way to track people who are here. As for the Democratic platform...well, the newcomers have some ideas. It remains to be seen if Pelosi is able to take them. 7 minutes ago, Koko78 said: If they had anyone at the DNC with an IQ over 60, they'd horsetrade full funding for the wall/border security in exchange for DACA and amnesty/path to citizenship for adult illegals. That allows them to claim that they were the adults in the room, that they care about our nation's security, and that they really gave up nothing to protect the vulnerable Dreamers and migrants. We all damn well know Trump will give away the store to claim a an easily-negated victory on the wall funding. Of course, the dumbschiffs would rather just paint themselves into a corner, then cry collusion. Actually, I think that might happen. The problem is that we need to separate the shutdown from immigration. The continuing resolutions that can get passed expire in three months, and if Trump knows that he can make insane demands on a whim every three months and they'll cave, he'll keep doing it. Addition: In the meanwhile, unless opinion radically shifts, they can let Trump keep shooting himself in the foot for 2020. Polls have people blaming Trump more for the shutdown than Democrats, and if they keep sending bill after bill for a clean passage to open the government and then negotiate for the wall, they keep looking reasonable while Trump keeps killing off votes for anyone outside of his cult. Edited January 10, 2019 by WhitewalkerInPhilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 3 hours ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: ...I mean, that's an extremely low bar to set. But yes, I can rebuke that. You see, we managed to get through that humanitarian crisis with compassion without completely disregarding the rule of law. How can you fit so much wrong into a single post? We didn't manage to get through ANYTHING. It's still going on. And it's still going on because Obama did what he always did; give a pretty speech, go back to his office and light up a Pall Mall before having his staff cancel a wedding so he could play a golf course. Nothing changed. Nothing. Someone wants to change it. And what does the left want to do: go home, smoke a Pall Mall and play golf. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Koko78 said: If they had anyone at the DNC with an IQ over 60, they'd horsetrade full funding for the wall/border security in exchange for DACA and amnesty/path to citizenship for adult illegals. That allows them to claim that they were the adults in the room, that they care about our nation's security, and that they really gave up nothing to protect the vulnerable Dreamers and migrants. We all damn well know Trump will give away the store to claim a an easily-negated victory on the wall funding. Of course, the dumbschiffs would rather just paint themselves into a corner, then cry collusion. 100%. They could ask for practically anything right now and Trump would give it to them. They have no plan, and no strategy for actually winning the election in 2020. They're still operating on the 2016 game script which is letting Trump implode on himself, and voters viewing them as the next best option, but people don't go out to the polls for that reason. Letting Pelosi and Schumer run the party is a disaster in the making. They're both wildly unpopular among moderate voters, and they're going to wind up in a situation where whoever wins the nomination next year has to pick up the pieces from the disaster they will have created. At this stage I honestly don't see the shut down ending anytime soon if ended on a compromise. The Dems will not let him build the wall, and Trump will not agree to anything that doesn't fund the wall. The only solution will be for Trump to declare an emergency and fund it on his own, and then the Dems will go full into how he's a tyrant, he doesn't respect the rule or law, blah, blah, blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Just now, jrober38 said: 100%. They could ask for practically anything right now and Trump would give it to them. They have no plan, and no strategy for actually winning the election in 2020. They're still operating on the 2016 game script which is letting Trump implode on himself, and voters viewing them as the next best option, but people don't go out to the polls for that reason. Letting Pelosi and Schumer run the party is a disaster in the making. They're both wildly unpopular among moderate voters, and they're going to wind up in a situation where whoever wins the nomination next year has to pick up the pieces from the disaster they will have created. At this stage I honestly don't see the shut down ending anytime soon if ended on a compromise. The Dems will not let him build the wall, and Trump will not agree to anything that doesn't fund the wall. The only solution will be for Trump to declare an emergency and fund it on his own, and then the Dems will go full into how he's a tyrant, he doesn't respect the rule or law, blah, blah, blah. It either ends with that, or with enough Republicans coming over to the Democrats to override a veto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: It's not "too expensive" It's useless. It doesn't stop the flow of people. How do you know? It doesn't stop the flow of drugs. How do you know? It won't lower crime How do you know? I'll answer the questions in red for you. You don't. $5b is pennies in the budget to find out. The US government spends about that much everyday. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: It's not "too expensive" It's useless. It doesn't stop the flow of people. It doesn't stop the flow of drugs. It won't lower crime No one knows if it will stop human trafficking Building it means forcibly selling land from private citizens It is going to continue to be a massive expenditure to maintain and staff. In short, if you want to wave your dick around about national security, put that money into things that might, I don't know, actually work, like hiring more border agents. Getting more lawyers to process asylum claims. Rework the path the legal residency and/or citizenship which reflects the reality of the situation and establish a way to track people who are here. As for the Democratic platform...well, the newcomers have some ideas. It remains to be seen if Pelosi is able to take them. I never said it would do any of those things. I more look at it as $5 billion spent (or $20 billion if they built the whole thing) to show everyone that building a wall isn't a real solution, and that a real plan needs to be implemented. As long as one side thinks a wall will solve their problems and the other says it won't is never going to result in meaningful progress. Stalemate isn't a solution. 2 minutes ago, DC Tom said: It either ends with that, or with enough Republicans coming over to the Democrats to override a veto. That won't happen. Voting against Trump as a Republican appears to be career suicide. His supporters will go out and primary you if you vote against his major policy plans. Edited January 10, 2019 by jrober38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, jrober38 said: 100%. They could ask for practically anything right now and Trump would give it to them. They have no plan, and no strategy for actually winning the election in 2020. They're still operating on the 2016 game script which is letting Trump implode on himself, and voters viewing them as the next best option, but people don't go out to the polls for that reason. Letting Pelosi and Schumer run the party is a disaster in the making. They're both wildly unpopular among moderate voters, and they're going to wind up in a situation where whoever wins the nomination next year has to pick up the pieces from the disaster they will have created. At this stage I honestly don't see the shut down ending anytime soon if ended on a compromise. The Dems will not let him build the wall, and Trump will not agree to anything that doesn't fund the wall. The only solution will be for Trump to declare an emergency and fund it on his own, and then the Dems will go full into how he's a tyrant, he doesn't respect the rule or law, blah, blah, blah. I already said this, but it answers your question: Right now, Democrats have zero reason to bend. And, if they want to do ANYTHING in the next two years, they have to separate any deal from a government shutdown. The continuing resolutions that can get passed expire in three months, and if Trump knows that he can make insane demands on a whim every three months and they'll cave, he'll keep doing it. In the meanwhile, unless opinion radically shifts, they can let Trump keep shooting himself in the foot for 2020. Polls have people blaming Trump more for the shutdown than Democrats, and if they keep sending bill after bill for a clean passage to open the government and then negotiate for the wall, they keep looking reasonable while Trump keeps killing off votes for anyone outside of his cult. If Trump declares a national emergency for his wall, and then refuses to open the government...whew, I think even Teflon Don is not surviving that. If Trump declares a national emergency for his wall, and then the government opens...oh hey, legal challenge that will stop it like his travel ban. And even then, it will take a year to actually start building, and there's no way the wall gets down before 2020. They don't have to do anything while Trump continues to stick his dick in the meat grinder. 9 minutes ago, LABillzFan said: TIMMMAAAHHHHh!!!!!!! Always good to hear sounds coming from the short bus Edited January 10, 2019 by WhitewalkerInPhilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: I already said this, but it answers your question: Right now, Democrats have zero reason to bend. And, if they want to do ANYTHING in the next two years, they have to separate any deal from a government shutdown. The continuing resolutions that can get passed expire in three months, and if Trump knows that he can make insane demands on a whim every three months and they'll cave, he'll keep doing it. In the meanwhile, unless opinion radically shifts, they can let Trump keep shooting himself in the foot for 2020. Polls have people blaming Trump more for the shutdown than Democrats, and if they keep sending bill after bill for a clean passage to open the government and then negotiate for the wall, they keep looking reasonable while Trump keeps killing off votes for anyone outside of his cult. If Trump declares a national emergency for his wall, and then refuses to open the government...whew, I think even Teflon Don is not surviving that. If Trump declares a national emergency for his wall, and then the government opens...oh hey, legal challenge that will stop it like his travel ban. And even then, it will take a year to actually start building, and there's no way the wall gets down before 2020. They don't have to do anything while Trump continues to stick his dick in the mean grinder. Agreed. The only resolution here is Trump declaring an emergency and funding the wall on his own. The Dems will not cave. Trump will not cave. This is political stalemate where neither side has any motivation to compromise. Relying on Trump to shoot himself in the foot isn't a political strategy that actually works. His base love him, and they will continue vote for him until he gives them a reason not to. Not being Trump won't be a winning campaign in 2020. Edited January 10, 2019 by jrober38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: I already said this, but it answers your question: Right now, Democrats have zero reason to bend. And, if they want to do ANYTHING in the next two years, they have to separate any deal from a government shutdown. The continuing resolutions that can get passed expire in three months, and if Trump knows that he can make insane demands on a whim every three months and they'll cave, he'll keep doing it. In the meanwhile, unless opinion radically shifts, they can let Trump keep shooting himself in the foot for 2020. Polls have people blaming Trump more for the shutdown than Democrats, and if they keep sending bill after bill for a clean passage to open the government and then negotiate for the wall, they keep looking reasonable while Trump keeps killing off votes for anyone outside of his cult. If Trump declares a national emergency for his wall, and then refuses to open the government...whew, I think even Teflon Don is not surviving that. If Trump declares a national emergency for his wall, and then the government opens...oh hey, legal challenge that will stop it like his travel ban. And even then, it will take a year to actually start building, and there's no way the wall gets down before 2020. They don't have to do anything while Trump continues to stick his dick in the meat grinder. Always good to hear sounds coming from the short bus And you believed me because.............. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, jrober38 said: I never said it would do any of those things. I more look at it as $5 billion spent (or $20 billion if they built the whole thing) to show everyone that building a wall isn't a real solution, and that a real plan needs to be implemented. As long as one side thinks a wall will solve their problems and the other says it won't is never going to result in meaningful progress. Stalemate isn't a solution. That won't happen. Voting against Trump as a Republican appears to be career suicide. His supporters will go out and primary you if you vote against his major policy plans. It won't happen because if Trump senses it's starting to happen he'll immediately declare a national emergency to avoid any diminution of his ego by Congress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 12 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: It's not "too expensive" It's useless. It doesn't stop the flow of people. It doesn't stop the flow of drugs. It won't lower crime No one knows if it will stop human trafficking Building it means forcibly selling land from private citizens It is going to continue to be a massive expenditure to maintain and staff. In short, if you want to wave your dick around about national security, put that money into things that might, I don't know, actually work, like hiring more border agents. Getting more lawyers to process asylum claims. Rework the path the legal residency and/or citizenship which reflects the reality of the situation and establish a way to track people who are here. As for the Democratic platform...well, the newcomers have some ideas. It remains to be seen if Pelosi is able to take them. Actually, I think that might happen. The problem is that we need to separate the shutdown from immigration. The continuing resolutions that can get passed expire in three months, and if Trump knows that he can make insane demands on a whim every three months and they'll cave, he'll keep doing it. Addition: In the meanwhile, unless opinion radically shifts, they can let Trump keep shooting himself in the foot for 2020. Polls have people blaming Trump more for the shutdown than Democrats, and if they keep sending bill after bill for a clean passage to open the government and then negotiate for the wall, they keep looking reasonable while Trump keeps killing off votes for anyone outside of his cult. Not long ago, polls had a large portion of the population dvr'ing the Hillary Rodham Clinton Coronation and Uranimum Sale Jamboree. So, there's that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said: The continuing resolutions that can get passed expire in three months, and if Trump knows that he can make insane demands on a whim every three months and they'll cave, he'll keep doing it. Conversely, if Trump caves, the House Democrats know they can make insane demands and he'll cave again. THAT'S THE ISSUE. Not a wall. A power struggle between two equally entrenched and inflexible positions, that doesn't end until one breaks the other - and these are all stupid, stubborn, unimaginative people who don't break easily. It's why I said earlier that to end this quickly you pretty much have to shoot all parties involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Gal Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, DC Tom said: It either ends with that, or with enough Republicans coming over to the Democrats to override a veto. I would not place bets against this happening. While a lot of RINOs got voted out, and many Rs see the "winning" strategy of holding firm, there will always be some GOPe-squishes hiding under the seats in Congress. Edited January 10, 2019 by Buffalo_Gal autocorrect is possessed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swill Merchant Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 11 minutes ago, jrober38 said: I'm not a conservative, but sometimes listen into conservative talk radio and try to listen to opinions from a variety of sources across the spectrum to gauge where people are coming from. It's a small sample, but some of the people who call in literally sound like they think a "wall" will completely block the flow of people across the southern border. It's as if they have no idea whatsoever how much commerce occurs there, and that those ports of entry where people cross legally and where so many tons of drugs come through undetected will remain open with a wall. A simple solution is good in theory, but it's not practical. Human beings have fled their homelands due to war, genocide, disease and famine for thousands of years, and that instinct isn't going to change suddenly with the creation of a wall. Desperate people with no hope or opportunity to better themselves or support their families will continue trying to get into the United States for as long as the reward outweighs the risk. The journey is too dangerous? Your risk getting raped or killed along the way? Not as bad as staying put and watching your kids starve to death due to the extreme poverty you face with no way out. I'm sure those people are out there. As GWB said on South Park, 25% of the country is retarded. But no serious person thinks the wall is a cure-all or that it immediately halts all drug trafficking and illegal immigration. It's a tool to help secure and manage the border so as to reduce those things. The level of effectiveness remains to be seen, but it will certainly assist the border patrol in meaningful ways. Even if it didn't, it's really not a big deal as the relative cost is minimal. it would be the equivalent of the average guy blowing $100. Who wouldn't blow $100 to keep the peace in their house, even if they thought it was a waste? I blow $100 on useless junk every Valentine's day for that very purpose. I believe the humanitarian argument favors the wall. If we can control the border we can reduce the exploitation & trafficking of children, and regulate legal immigration more effectively. There are better and less arbitrary ways of giving assistance to people in need around the world than leaving a porous border that encourages people to make a dangerous journey for the promise of America. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DC Tom said: Conversely, if Trump caves, the House Democrats know they can make insane demands and he'll cave again. THAT'S THE ISSUE. Not a wall. A power struggle between two equally entrenched and inflexible positions, that doesn't end until one breaks the other - and these are all stupid, stubborn, unimaginative people who don't break easily. It's why I said earlier that to end this quickly you pretty much have to shoot all parties involved. promise? Edited January 10, 2019 by Foxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Agreed. The only resolution here is Trump declaring an emergency and funding the wall on his own. The Dems will not cave. Trump will not cave. This is political stalemate where neither side has any motivation to compromise. Relying on Trump to shoot himself in the foot isn't a political strategy that actually works. His base love him, and they will continue vote for him until he gives them a reason not to. Not being Trump won't be a winning campaign in 2020. You're absolutely right. That was the thinking that let them go full Hillary in 2016 and 2017 I honestly think they run to the left to get *their* base motivated. Is the ACA broken? Universal Healthcare The economy? Green New Deal The deficit? The new 70% tax bracket for income over 10 million Trump constantly being...Trump will never sway his base. But if Democrats stoke their own base, and Trump continues to make unforced errors, they get the middle back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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