Tiberius Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, reddogblitz said: I vote to keep the IRS shut down indefinitely and go with a National Sales Tax instead. Putin would love that. We would have to cut the military and there would be no money for the wall, consumer spending would plummet and the economy would tank. Anymore great ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) Just now, Tiberius said: Putin would love that. We would have to cut the military and there would be no money for the wall, consumer spending would plummet and the economy would tank. Anymore great ideas? We could still get as much money through taxes as we do now, just in a different, more fair way. The IRS is the agency that didn't collect any taxes from Trump. You sure you want to keep them around? My way, anytime Trump buys a new golden toilet, he gets taxed. Edited January 8, 2019 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, reddogblitz said: We could still get as much money through taxes as we do now, just in a different, more fair way. No, not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) Just now, Tiberius said: No, not even close. Why not? We cross posted. Just want to make sure you saw this: The IRS is the agency that didn't collect any taxes from Trump. You sure you want to keep them around? My way, anytime Trump buys a new golden toilet, he gets taxed. Edited January 8, 2019 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: Why not? We cross posted. Just want to make sure you saw this: The IRS is the agency that didn't collect any taxes from Trump. You sure you want to keep them around? My way, anytime Trump buys a new golden toilet, he gets taxed. Consumption taxes will hurt consumer spending and will not make up for loss of revenue. The wealthy do not consume enough to make up for the other lost revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Consumption taxes will hurt consumer spending and will not make up for loss of revenue. The wealthy do not consume enough to make up for the other lost revenue. People will have more money to spend. Middle class andPoor people aren't going to buy anything because they don't want to pay taxes? Also, on April 15, the govt sends every person a check with enough money to pay their first $20,000 (or whatever) in purchases so poor people won't be screwed. If tax rate is 25%, then $5,000. Takes out the whole regressive argument. That way people that can get high priced accountants (like Trump) still pay taxes like everyone else. Edited January 8, 2019 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: People will have more money to spend. Middle class andPoor people aren't going to buy anything because they don't want to pay taxes? Also, on April 15, the govt sends every person a check with enough money to pay their first $20,000 (or whatever) in purchases so poor people won't be screwed. If tax rate is 25%, then $5,000. Takes out the whole regressive argument. That way people that can get high priced accountants (like Trump) still pay taxes like everyone else. Rich people pay the majority of the federal taxes, right? But they are only a small percentage of the population. They won't buy enough to make up for the lost revenue. This will shift tax burden to middle class, and also create tax shortfalls, so you will have to borrow more or cut military. You will also also turn every cash register in the country into our tax collection system with a huge incentive to cheat, so the Feds will be investigating all that, all the time. Black market out of canada and mexico will be huge! Goods 25% cheaper?!? And you should start a thread about this! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 28 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: I vote to keep the IRS shut down indefinitely and go with a National Sales Tax instead. Funny. The left can't go with a NST because they can't confiscate 70% of everyone's income that way. They must have it all, because the left is convinced that only the government can take care you because you're too stupid to take care of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tiberius said: ... You will also also turn every cash register in the country into our tax collection system ... sorry to be the bearer of bad news here but.... this is already the case. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, Tiberius said: Rich people pay the majority of the federal taxes, right? But they are only a small percentage of the population. They won't buy enough to make up for the lost revenue. This will shift tax burden to middle class, and also create tax shortfalls, so you will have to borrow more or cut military. You will also also turn every cash register in the country into our tax collection system with a huge incentive to cheat, so the Feds will be investigating all that, all the time. Black market out of canada and mexico will be huge! Goods 25% cheaper?!? And you should start a thread about this! Lol No incentive to cheat on taxes now? People can buy black market cigarettes and booze and weed (in my state) to avoid taxes. How many people do that? Everybody I know pops over 7-11 to get a 6 pack. Finding an illegal way to do it to save a little is a hassle. Remember, they'll have MORE money to spend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwoz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-trump-lies-gambling-speech-odds-35-bet-20190108-story.html?fbclid=IwAR3yQUE5EhJMJK0jLwYXqfCDQOqjopqLLX_PJLs226nu2NlHL4ZhRaG4GcY 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: No incentive to cheat on taxes now? People can buy black market cigarettes and booze and weed (in my state) to avoid taxes. How many people do that? Everybody I know pops over 7-11 to get a 6 pack. Finding an illegal way to do it to save a little is a hassle. Remember, they'll have MORE money to spend. In any tax system there is incentive to cheat, I do agree that a sales tax is much easier to cheat and skim than income which has a two party reporting system in most non-service industries. If you moved to a national sales tax you simply would not raise more money than the current progressive tax system. Rich people do not spend their income at nearly the same rate. Just to keep things simple and flat for sake of argument. Lets say that someone earning 1 million dollars gets taxed at a federal level 30% after deductions plus a payroll tax capped after about 140k. That person is paying 300,000 in taxes plus payroll taxes. Now under a national sales tax with a 25% rate that person could spend all of their money earned and only end up paying 250,000 in taxes. Its more likely that a person earning 7 figures would spend 50% of their earning and save/invest the other 50% thus more than likely paying 125,000 in taxes assuming that every thing they bought was taxed and reported. Unless I am missing something it just doesn't add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwoz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: In any tax system there is incentive to cheat, I do agree that a sales tax is much easier to cheat and skim than income which has a two party reporting system in most non-service industries. If you moved to a national sales tax you simply would not raise more money than the current progressive tax system. Rich people do not spend their income at nearly the same rate. Just to keep things simple and flat for sake of argument. Lets say that someone earning 1 million dollars gets taxed at a federal level 30% after deductions plus a payroll tax capped after about 140k. That person is paying 300,000 in taxes plus payroll taxes. Now under a national sales tax with a 25% rate that person could spend all of their money earned and only end up paying 250,000 in taxes. Its more likely that a person earning 7 figures would spend 50% of their earning and save/invest the other 50% thus more than likely paying 125,000 in taxes assuming that every thing they bought was taxed and reported. Unless I am missing something it just doesn't add up. Where did you get this example? Because none of it makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: If you moved to a national sales tax you simply would not raise more money than the current progressive tax system. Rich people do not spend their income at nearly the same rate. Who says we need to raise MORE money? With all the analytics and statistical analysis availAble today, it wouldn't be hard to figure out the right rate to get what the government needs. Rich people may spend at a lower rate of income, but spend a heck of a lot more in real dollars. The real reason politicians could not go for it is people would truly know how much they are paying on a daily basis as opposed to being just a line item on their pay statement they never look at. Lowering taxes would become a bigger priority for a lot of voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, notwoz said: Where did you get this example? Because none of it makes any sense. How does it not make any sense? If you switched federal income taxes to a national sales tax that doesn't eliminate state and local taxes. Federal dollars vs. Federal dollars is what you have to look at. If you make 1,000,000 in income and are taxed at a federal rate of 30% after deductions and the money that falls into a lower bracket that means you are paying about 300,000$ in taxes right? 30% of 1,000,000 is 300,000 and that's not factoring in payroll taxes. If you went to a national sales tax to replace federal income taxes and the rate was 25% a person earning 1,000,000 spending all of their money on taxable reported goods would still only pay 250,000 in taxes. Where is the math faulty? The debate is what raises more money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: Who says we need to raise MORE money? With all the analytics and statistical analysis availAble today, it wouldn't be hard to figure out the right rate to get what the government needs. Rich people may spend at a lower rate of income, but spend a heck of a lot more in real dollars. The real reason politicians could not go for it is people would truly know how much they are paying on a daily basis as opposed to being just a line item on their pay statement they never look at. Lowering taxes would become a bigger priority for a lot of voters. If lowering taxes on wealthy people dramatically in the interest of fairness meant drastically slashing military spending, programs that invest in science, getting rid of social security and medicare (no IRS means no payroll taxes,) destroying regulatory agencies, lowering education investment, lowering infrastructure spending, killing the NASA budget, and mostly eliminating programs that help the poor and working poor you would see people clamoring for a progressive tax system again. You have to be extremely wealthy or a sucker to think that people are that desperate for lower and more fair taxes on the wealthy to destroy all those things. I know this board is very conservative in general and basically adheres to a rather Ron Swanson like ideology. But if you actually looked at what your tax dollars get spent on you find that Americans get a decent deal. 61% of federal spending is on Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, all very popular programs. Of the other 39% the largest item is military spending which is about 16% of the federal budget. Which means that the rest of the federal budget including servicing the debt (which is about 6% of federal spending) is only about 23% of the total federal budget. That includes very popular things like National Parks, Science and Educational programs, research grants, NASA, housing programs, food stamps, Infrastructure spending, Environmental protection, other regulatory agencies, and the post office. I get that there is wasted money and bloat in the federal government but to act like there isn't waste in other big private sector agencies would be dishonest. Any large entity has waste and fraud. Overall I think that the American people would rather keep the current progressive tax system than to completely dismantle and the services that the government provides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 53 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: No incentive to cheat on taxes now? People can buy black market cigarettes and booze and weed (in my state) to avoid taxes. How many people do that? Everybody I know pops over 7-11 to get a 6 pack. Finding an illegal way to do it to save a little is a hassle. Remember, they'll have MORE money to spend. With the new e-economy, selling black market clothes and stuff would be easy, and at 25% cheaper, that's a yes. You brought up Trumps toilet, so would you charge all home building materials? Construction equipment for companies? Real eastate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Gal Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 17 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: How does it not make any sense? If you switched federal income taxes to a national sales tax that doesn't eliminate state and local taxes. Federal dollars vs. Federal dollars is what you have to look at. If you make 1,000,000 in income and are taxed at a federal rate of 30% after deductions and the money that falls into a lower bracket that means you are paying about 300,000$ in taxes right? 30% of 1,000,000 is 300,000 and that's not factoring in payroll taxes. If you went to a national sales tax to replace federal income taxes and the rate was 25% a person earning 1,000,000 spending all of their money on taxable reported goods would still only pay 250,000 in taxes. Where is the math faulty? The debate is what raises more money. How much are the deductions? If you have $1m and have $0 in deductions, $300k is correct at a straight 30% rate (i.e. 30% on the first dollar to the last dollar). But if you have $500k in deductions you would pay the rate of tax on the remaining $500k (so $150k if it is still 30%). The deductions are key, and so is if there is a gradual tax rate or a tax rate that is the same first dollar to last dollar. As far as what raises more money? No idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 SO IT LOOKS LIKE AOC IS EITHER LYING OR BEING LIED TO: Funny, that: 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Buffalo_Gal said: How much are the deductions? If you have $1m and have $0 in deductions, $300k is correct at a straight 30% rate (i.e. 30% on the first dollar to the last dollar). But if you have $500k in deductions you would pay the rate of tax on the remaining $500k (so $150k if it is still 30%). The deductions are key, and so is if there is a gradual tax rate or a tax rate that is the same first dollar to last dollar. As far as what raises more money? No idea. The current top rate is 37% on income over 500k. I rounded that down to 30% to adjust for deductions and income falling in other brackets. Even if you rounded that effective total rate (which I am doing for simplicity sake) to 25% just to overestimate deductions that person earning a million would still pay 250k in taxes. On a national sales tax of 25% you would have to hope that person earning one million spends all of their money on taxable goods in a single year to get to that amount and that's not even factoring in payroll taxes. I just see no way that a national sales tax earns more money than the current progressive tax system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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