The Trump Shutdown

[row_33]

26 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

How would I do it?  Simple.  Tell the Senate majority leader to allow the House bill (the one the Senate approved in December) to come to a vote and pass.  Then sign it.  Then negotiate.

 

is there blame on both sides?  Yes, Pelosi should not have said no money at all for a wall.  But that does not put her in charge , or blame, or whatever, of the shut down.  The president said it would be on him.  He was right.

 

 

cool story bro

 

it doesn't matter

 

 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Except Speaker Nancy is on record that there will be no negotiating on the wall. In other words she will not allow any funding for a wall. So, you expect Trump to give up any leverage he might have to get another continuing resolution that just pushes the issue down the road? We've pushed this issue down the road for decades because the dems don't want to settle the DACA issue because they need it for political purposes.

I have already said I think she was wrong to say that.

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I have already said I think she was wrong to say that.

If I came up with an avatar picture for youthats not terrible would you use it?  Thinking an old.man from the Simpsons changed up a little to be Billsy if I can.  Or just grandpa Simpson

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Boyst62 said:

If I came up with an avatar picture for youthats not terrible would you use it?  Thinking an old.man from the Simpsons changed up a little to be Billsy if I can.  Or just grandpa Simpson

Add something constructive.  This is just more garbage from you.

[boyst]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Add something constructive.  This is just more garbage from you.

Offering to make you an avatar is constructive dingbat.

[3rdnlng]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I have already said I think she was wrong to say that.

Yes, but then you say to give her what she wants because Trump said he'd own the shutdown. Let's not be so obtuse and do what's  right rather than parse words to try to win some imaginary debate.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, DC Tom said:

 

I'm old enough to remember when money was the government's, not the tax payers'.

 

Seems like it was just a couple years ago...

Cute. Was that back when workers still got paid for...doing their jobs? 

45 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

How would I do it?  Simple.  Tell the Senate majority leader to allow the House bill (the one the Senate approved in December) to come to a vote and pass.  Then sign it.  Then negotiate.

 

is there blame on both sides?  Yes, Pelosi should not have said no money at all for a wall.  But that does not put her in charge , or blame, or whatever, of the shut down.  The president said it would be on him.  He was right.

And he said Mexico would pay for the wall that our government is shutdown over. But he just keeps digging. The American people elected the Dems to stand up to this clown and that is what they are doing. Elections have consequences, a forty seat house blue Wave matters. 

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Yes, but then you say to give her what she wants because Trump said he'd own the shutdown. Let's not be so obtuse and do what's  right rather than parse words to try to win some imaginary debate.

I agree.  Let's do what's right.  Our difference is I want the government open right now, and then negotiate.  You don't, and I presume because you think the president would then no longer have negotiating power.

 

Here's the thing I would say to those who take the latter view.  Opening he government gives you the high ground.  Polls indicate the president is being blamed (and since he said he'd take the blame that seems appropriate).  I don't think the American people are dumb; if they see someone say on TV they'll take the blame, then that's where they'll place the blame.  But you open things up, you look like the guy wanting to get things done.  The Democrats then don't want to negotiate in good faith, they are the ones that look bad politically.  You open the government today, then Pelosi refuses to negotiate, you have the political and moral high ground.

 

The precedent that cannot be set in my view is to allow the Executive branch to have so much more power than the Legislative branch, regardless of what party holds each part of government at any time.  If a precedent is set where a president can shut down government for weeks or months at a time just because he or she does not like one part of an appropriations bill, then our country's government cannot function.   

[row_33]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I agree.  Let's do what's right.  Our difference is I want the government open right now, and then negotiate.  You don't, and I presume because you think the president would then no longer have negotiating power.

 

Here's the thing I would say to those who take the latter view.  Opening he government gives you the high ground.  Polls indicate the president is being blamed (and since he said he'd take the blame that seems appropriate).  I don't think the American people are dumb; if they see someone say on TV they'll take the blame, then that's where they'll place the blame.  But you open things up, you look like the guy wanting to get things done.  The Democrats then don't want to negotiate in good faith, they are the ones that look bad politically.  You open the government today, then Pelosi refuses to negotiate, you have the political and moral high ground.

 

The precedent that cannot be set in my view is to allow the Executive branch to have so much more power than the Legislative branch, regardless of what party holds each part of government at any time.  If a precedent is set where a president can shut down government for weeks or months at a time just because he or she does not like one part of an appropriations bill, then our country's government cannot function.   

 

 

Polls are garbage, they select a sample that will meet their client's wishes, then twist the questions and interpret the answer to meet their client's wishes.

 

Doesn't mean it is always going to be against reality, but there is a huge risk that it is not reflective at all.

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

15 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I agree.  Let's do what's right.  Our difference is I want the government open right now, and then negotiate.  You don't, and I presume because you think the president would then no longer have negotiating power.   

 

No. Pelosi told Trump she would not negotiate even after he opens the government. So no one is presuming anything. We are going off the speakers own words. 

[3rdnlng]

20 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I agree.  Let's do what's right.  Our difference is I want the government open right now, and then negotiate.  You don't, and I presume because you think the president would then no longer have negotiating power.

 

Here's the thing I would say to those who take the latter view.  Opening he government gives you the high ground.  Polls indicate the president is being blamed (and since he said he'd take the blame that seems appropriate).  I don't think the American people are dumb; if they see someone say on TV they'll take the blame, then that's where they'll place the blame.  But you open things up, you look like the guy wanting to get things done.  The Democrats then don't want to negotiate in good faith, they are the ones that look bad politically.  You open the government today, then Pelosi refuses to negotiate, you have the political and moral high ground.

 

The precedent that cannot be set in my view is to allow the Executive branch to have so much more power than the Legislative branch, regardless of what party holds each part of government at any time.  If a precedent is set where a president can shut down government for weeks or months at a time just because he or she does not like one part of an appropriations bill, then our country's government cannot function.   

So, you are asking Charlie Brown to trust Lucy just one more time?

 

This precedent nonsense is just another dem manufactured talking point. Every shutdown in the past and in the future is caused by disagreements between the two chambers or the Executive branch.

[Foxx]

@oldmanfan

 

Indy, you began today's foray into the shutdown argument with agreement of a previous discussion that words matter and that the precision of those words are very important. i am glad you agree with many of us here, that that matter is of the utmost importance in any dialogue. 

 

you then proceed to go off on Trump stating that he has to own the shutdown because he stated he would. this is somewhat disingenuous. an equal part of words having meaning, is that having those words in context is essential to grasp the full meaning of what was said. as i'm sure you know, a sound bite can be taken to convey something entirely different than what was meant, in context. i don't believe you to be dishonest, so i will have to say that you are just not well informed as to what the context was of that statement or that possibly you have a blind spot due to political leanings.

 

Trump stated that he would own the government shutdown if he didn't get what he wanted, that being funding for the border wall. further, in fuller context, it was meant that he would shut it down for border security. and, to put the fuller context into a more complete contextual setting, a little history should be considered. I shall attempt to provide that context below.

 

previously, Trump was promised that he would have his border funding by the end of the year.  a bill was upon his desk and the promise was made in order to get him to sign the bill, a cheeseburger tomorrow for payment today.

 

...President Donald Trump is attacking Republican leaders in Congress, saying they haven’t kept promises that he would get money for his long-promised border wall by year’s end.

 

Trump says in a tweet that when he “begrudgingly” signed an earlier spending bill, he was “promised the Wall and Border Security by leadership. Would be done by end of year (NOW). It didn’t happen!”...

 

so, we now then come to the days just ahead of the shutdown and what transpired in the congressional halls.

 

... The Senate on Friday considered legislation to fund the government agencies through Feb. 8 and appropriate $5.7 billion to build 215 miles of wall structures along the Mexico border.

 

The House passed that legislation Thursday evening, but Senate Democrats successfully unified on Friday and refused to back that measure.

 

Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Friday that Democrats were open to talks with the White House and Republicans but would not agree to any measure that funded the construction of a new border wall.

 

Schumer said Friday that the Senate had unanimously agreed to a spending bill earlier in the week and accused Trump of having a “temper tantrum” because he wasn’t getting money for the wall.

 

“President Trump, you will not get your wall,” Schumer said. “You’re not getting your wall today, next week or on Jan. 3 when Democrats take control of the House.”

 

Democrats tried to make clear to the White House for weeks that they had the votes to block any measure that contained money for the wall.

 

As their power became clear to White House officials, White House press secretary Sarah Sanders signaled Tuesday that Trump was planning to withdraw his request for the funds in an effort to keep the government open.

 

But he received a torrent of criticism from conservative lawmakers and commentators following this decision, and he reversed course on Thursday, scuttling a temporary, bipartisan spending bill that would have extended funding through Feb. 8 but did not contain wall money.

 

Trump on Friday urged Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to change long-standing Senate rules to pass the House’s measure providing $5.7 billion for the wall. McConnell refused, making it impossible for Senate Republicans to push the measure through because Democrats control 49 seats in the 100-member chamber. ...

 

... “We’re going to be working very hard to get something passed in the Senate,” Trump said earlier Friday in the Oval Office. “Now it’s up to the Democrats as to whether or not we have a shutdown tonight. I hope we don’t, but we’ve very much prepared for a long shutdown.” ...

 

further, from the same article, Chuck U. Shumer said the following:

 

... “President Trump, you will not get your wall,” Schumer said. “You’re not getting your wall today, next week or on Jan. 3 when Democrats take control of the House.” ...

 

forward to this past Saturday and Trump offered a grand compromise, ceding to many of the Democrats demands. which for all his efforts, was rejected out of hand before he even formally made the new offer.

 

so... please tell me in an unabashed, nonpartisan way who is to blame for the gov shutdown?

 

does Trump own the shutdown because he said he would in order to get what the american people who voted him into office wanted? do the Republicans own it because they promised him funding by the end of the year? do the Democrats own it because they wouldn't allow a vote on the bill passed by the House? do Democrats own it because they stated outright that Trump would never get his wall? do the Democrats own it because they have previously argued and voted for a border wall and now are only against it because Trump wants it? these are completely honest, serious questions.

 

one last item here... being responsible for something is not the same as being at fault for something. you can be responsible for something while the actual fault lies elsewhere.

[3rdnlng]

31 minutes ago, Foxx said:

@oldmanfan

 

Indy, you began today's foray into the shutdown argument with agreement of a previous discussion that words matter and that the precision of those words are very important. i am glad you agree with many of us here, that that matter is of the utmost importance in any dialogue. 

 

you then proceed to go off on Trump stating that he has to own the shutdown because he stated he would. this is somewhat disingenuous. an equal part of words having meaning, is that having those words in context is essential to grasp the full meaning of what was said. as i'm sure you know, a sound bite can be taken to convey something entirely different than what was meant, in context. i don't believe you to be dishonest, so i will have to say that you are just not well informed as to what the context was of that statement or that possibly you have a blind spot due to political leanings.

 

Trump stated that he would own the government shutdown if he didn't get what he wanted, that being funding for the border wall. further, in fuller context, it was meant that he would shut it down for border security. and, to put the fuller context into a more complete contextual setting, a little history should be considered. I shall attempt to provide that context below.

 

previously, Trump was promised that he would have his border funding by the end of the year.  a bill was upon his desk and the promise was made in order to get him to sign the bill, a cheeseburger tomorrow for payment today.

 

...President Donald Trump is attacking Republican leaders in Congress, saying they haven’t kept promises that he would get money for his long-promised border wall by year’s end.

 

Trump says in a tweet that when he “begrudgingly” signed an earlier spending bill, he was “promised the Wall and Border Security by leadership. Would be done by end of year (NOW). It didn’t happen!”...

 

so, we now then come to the days just ahead of the shutdown and what transpired in the congressional halls.

 

... The Senate on Friday considered legislation to fund the government agencies through Feb. 8 and appropriate $5.7 billion to build 215 miles of wall structures along the Mexico border.

 

The House passed that legislation Thursday evening, but Senate Democrats successfully unified on Friday and refused to back that measure.

 

Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Friday that Democrats were open to talks with the White House and Republicans but would not agree to any measure that funded the construction of a new border wall.

 

Schumer said Friday that the Senate had unanimously agreed to a spending bill earlier in the week and accused Trump of having a “temper tantrum” because he wasn’t getting money for the wall.

 

“President Trump, you will not get your wall,” Schumer said. “You’re not getting your wall today, next week or on Jan. 3 when Democrats take control of the House.”

 

Democrats tried to make clear to the White House for weeks that they had the votes to block any measure that contained money for the wall.

 

As their power became clear to White House officials, White House press secretary Sarah Sanders signaled Tuesday that Trump was planning to withdraw his request for the funds in an effort to keep the government open.

 

But he received a torrent of criticism from conservative lawmakers and commentators following this decision, and he reversed course on Thursday, scuttling a temporary, bipartisan spending bill that would have extended funding through Feb. 8 but did not contain wall money.

 

Trump on Friday urged Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to change long-standing Senate rules to pass the House’s measure providing $5.7 billion for the wall. McConnell refused, making it impossible for Senate Republicans to push the measure through because Democrats control 49 seats in the 100-member chamber. ...

 

... “We’re going to be working very hard to get something passed in the Senate,” Trump said earlier Friday in the Oval Office. “Now it’s up to the Democrats as to whether or not we have a shutdown tonight. I hope we don’t, but we’ve very much prepared for a long shutdown.” ...

 

further, from the same article, Chuck U. Shumer said the following:

 

... “President Trump, you will not get your wall,” Schumer said. “You’re not getting your wall today, next week or on Jan. 3 when Democrats take control of the House.” ...

 

forward to this past Saturday and Trump offered a grand compromise, ceding to many of the Democrats demands. which for all his efforts, was rejected out of hand before he even formally made the new offer.

 

so... please tell me in an unabashed, nonpartisan way who is to blame for the gov shutdown?

 

does Trump own the shutdown because he said he would in order to get what the american people who voted him into office wanted? do the Republicans own it because they promised him funding by the end of the year? do the Democrats own it because they wouldn't allow a vote on the bill passed by the House? do Democrats own it because they stated outright that Trump would never get his wall? do the Democrats own it because they have previously argued and voted for a border wall and now are only against it because Trump wants it? these are completely honest, serious questions.

 

one last item here... being responsible for something is not the same as being at fault for something. you can be responsible for something while the actual fault lies elsewhere.

Well said.

[Foxx]

more evidence of cracks in the Democrats position.

 

when one of your major mouthpieces posts something that directly contradicts your stance, do you disown them?

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1088149393851760642

 

[3rdnlng]

Nancy Pelosi is refusing to let POTUS have the STOTU speech on 1-29-19.

[Deranged Rhino]

3 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Nancy Pelosi is refusing to let POTUS have the STOTU speech on 1-29-19.

 

 

 

She has no power. And it shows. 

[3rdnlng]

1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

 

She has no power. And it shows. 

Yep. This can't go well for her. If she could control her caucus she wouldn't have had to do this.

[DC Tom]

Just now, 3rdnlng said:

Yep. This can't go well for her. If she could control her caucus she wouldn't have had to do this.

 

She only cares how it polls in California.  Maybe New England.  

 

And it likely has overwhelming support in both places, silencing the fake president.

[bilzfancy]

Pelosi is showing signs of early dementia 

[Chef Jim]

17 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

 

 

She has no power. And it shows. 

 

And I will again pose my one word favorite question Ms. Speaker regarding you not authorizing the State of the Union.  Why?