The Trump Shutdown

[DC Tom]

15 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/2/border-patrol-agents-back-trump-wall-survey-finds/

 

That's 89%, vs. 7% who don't think it will be effective.

 

Who's ignoring what now?

 

Now, onto your own articles:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/border-patrol-officers-us-mexico-border-wall/

 

This agent may be in the 7% who think the wall will be ineffective, however he speaks of a continuous wall, in place of better staffing an technology.  You're creating a false choice, and a strawman.  Literally no one is arguing in favor of a continuous wall, and literally no one is arguing for a wall as a substitute.

 

The agent mentions, in the article in question, that physical barriers work as a deterrent by forcing people into areas more easily traversed.  The agent also mentions that smugglers seek out areas that remote, difficult to traverse, and are far from outposts making it difficult to patrol.

 

THAT'S WHERE THE WALLS ARE BEING CONSTRUCTED TO ACT AS PHYSICAL BARRIERS YOU ***** MORON. 

 

Point of note, even though I think the wall is an idiotic idea...

 

Historically, walls are not good at stopping people - invasions or migrations.  They are, however, very effective at stopping the movement of goods.

[Koko78]

3 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

This is incorrect. 

 

But NPCinPhilly only deals with feelz, not facts. 

 

The NPC is becoming unhinged today.

[Deranged Rhino]

3 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Awwww, Rhino's kindergarten reading level prevents him from reading the quote.

 

I have to thank you. You are singlehandedly disproving the ideas of eugenics.

 

I've spoken directly to the people tasked with stopping human trafficking and smuggling by this administration multiple times. 

To a person they want a wall and believe it will help tremendously in the fight. This isn't even debatable at this point.

 

But when you operate by feelz, facts don't matter. You're a good little NPC.

 

[B-Man]

Haven't people figured out the usual routine Friday afternoon Russia collusion scandal article,

 

that then gets retracted or 'fixed' 3 weeks later below the fold?

 

How many times exactly does it take? 15, 20?

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

https://medium.com/s/story/what-happened-when-a-trump-supporter-challenged-me-about-the-wall-e54e86a5edd1?fbclid=IwAR1d_5b4gazBYOJXw-p5LIBoTgCuDuQIlOuaW7hrrruu79u0ajjxcoX90pk


The article above -- which I'm sure most won't click on before calling me an idiot -- uses only conservative sources to point out why the wall is such a bad idea. The pieces cited in the above article are listed below if you want to skip directly to them. They all point to the same fact, though: 

"The ugly genius of Trump is his ability to manipulate deep, primal emotions—namely fear and hate. Along with Fox News, he has convinced his base that immigrants put them in 'extreme danger' and only a wall will make them 'safe.'

Unfortunately, their need to feel safe is much stronger than their will to grapple with a complex, multifaceted problem—a problem that will require serious engagement with complex policies to get at the root of it.

And so, here we are, paralyzed by shutdowns at every turn."

 

Cato Institute: “Why the Wall Won’t Work” https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

Former Reagan staffer and Tea-Party liaison Donna Wiesner Keene: “The Conservative Case Against a Border Fence” published by U.S. News & World Report.  https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/10/12/the-conservative-case-against-a-border-fence-trying-to-stop-illegal-immigration-with-a-really-big-fence-would-be-a-futile-waste-of-money

The Chicago Tribune (a conservative-leaning paper): “Trump’s Wall Is Performance Art, Not Border Security”    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-perspec-chapman-trump-wall-mexico-immigration-20180314-story.html

National Review (conservative magazine): “Trump’s Border Wall Plan Is Ridiculous on Its Face” https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/04/donald-trump-border-wall-plan-ridiculous-guaranteed-failure/

Additional non-partisan sources:

Harvard Business Review (business-oriented): “A Wall Won’t Secure the U.S.-Mexico Border, but Economic Policy Could” https://hbr.org/2017/02/a-wall-wont-secure-the-u-s-mexico-border-but-economic-policy-could

Nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute (MPI): “Borders and Walls: Do Barriers Deter Unauthorized Migration?”  https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/borders-and-walls-do-barriers-deter-unauthorized-migration

 

5 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Point of note, even though I think the wall is an idiotic idea...

 

Historically, walls are not good at stopping people - invasions or migrations.  They are, however, very effective at stopping the movement of goods.

Again, just wanted to hope back in the parts about how wall is useless, including against the movement of goods. The Cato Institute one is of special note in that regard.

[Cinga]

9 minutes ago, B-Man said:

"Waiting for a Shutdown to End in Disaster/Aides on Capitol Hill fear that a dramatic government failure may be the only thing to force President Trump and the Democrats back to the table", from McKay Coppins:

The basic theory—explained to me between weary sighs and defeated shrugs—goes like this: Washington is at an impasse that looks increasingly unbreakable.... For a deal to shake loose in this environment, it may require a failure of government so dramatic, so shocking, as to galvanize public outrage and force the two parties back to the negotiating table.

Two parties back? From my understanding, Trump has been sitting at the table waiting on the Democ- Rats.... 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

I've spoken directly to the people tasked with stopping human trafficking and smuggling by this administration multiple times. 

To a person they want a wall and believe it will help tremendously in the fight. This isn't even debatable at this point.

 

But when you operate by feelz, facts don't matter. You're a good little NPC.

 

*pat pat pat*

 

Awww, it's so cute when he pretends he knows people. He thinks he has friends.

 

Give me data. Give me something that can be independently verified. Because all I've seen from you lot is:

 

"I FEEEEEEEELZ A BORDER WALL WILL WORK. NO, I AIN'T GOT NO PROOF, BUT GRANDPAPPY JIM SAYS THAT BROWN PEOPLE ARE RAPISTS, AND SO DID ORANGE MAN11111 WHY YOU DOUBT ORANGE MAN? yOU HATE AMERICA!!!11111"

 

 

I have almost shat myself laughing at your "feelz" comments, when I keep bringing independently verified facts, and you come with "NUH UH!!!"

 

It is like watching a special ed student try to get into a debate. At first, it's funny, but the more it's just...sad.

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, B-Man said:

Haven't people figured out the usual routine Friday afternoon Russia collusion scandal article,

 

that then gets retracted or 'fixed' 3 weeks later below the fold?

 

How many times exactly does it take? 15, 20?

 

I never had anything to do with Russia 

[DC Tom]

8 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

 

Again, just wanted to hope back in the parts about how wall is useless, including against the movement of goods. The Cato Institute one is of special note in that regard.

 

You can keep staring at your own belly button if you prefer, but I'll take 5000 years of human history over the Cato Institute's paper musings.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

6 minutes ago, Cinga said:

Two parties back? From my understanding, Trump has been sitting at the table waiting on the Democ- Rats.... 

 Trump, December 2018: This is what will pass

 

All of the Senate: Ok

 

Trump after watching Ann Coulter: Ok, now add on 5 billion for a wall

 

Democrats:....no, you just said this would pass. You are going back on your promise.

 

Trump: Well, fine, I'll shut the government down then. And I take full responsibility.

 

Democrats: Look, we can talk about the border wall. But you clearly are going back on your word

 

Trump: Lalala SHUTTING IT DOWN

*Shuts down the government. People get hurt. People blame Trump

 

Trump: Look at all of this chaos. Now give me what I want.

 

Democrats: *sigh* Look, undo this mess and we can talk.

 

Trump: NO!!!!

 

*People blame Trump more*

 

This is what the polls are saying.

 

yeah...Trump is lucky if  Democrats bail his stupid ass out.

5 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

You can keep staring at your own belly button if you prefer, but I'll take 5000 years of human history over the Cato Institute's paper musings.

Cool. Love your...what does Rhino call them?

 

"Feelz"?

[3rdnlng]

https://nypost.com/2018/01/13/we-already-have-a-border-wall-and-it-works/

 

When charges of “racism” and “xenophobia” fail, Democrats’ fallback argument against President Trump’s proposed border wall is that it simply “won’t work,” so why waste billions building it? Tell that to the residents of El Paso, Texas.

Federal data show a far-less imposing wall than the one Trump envisions — a two-story corrugated metal fence first erected under the Bush administration — already has dramatically curtailed both illegal border crossings and crime in Texas’ sixth-largest city, which borders the high-crime Mexican city of Juarez.

In fact, the number of deportable illegal immigrants located by the US Border Patrol plummeted by more than 89 percent over the five-year period during which the controversial new fence was built, according to Homeland Security data I reviewed. When the project first started in 2006, illegal crossings totaled 122,261, but by 2010, when the 131-mile fence was completed from one end of El Paso out into the New Mexico desert, immigrant crossings shrank to just 12,251.

They hit a low of 9,678 in 2012, before slowly ticking back up to a total of 25,193 last year. But they’re still well below pre-fence levels, and the Border Patrol credits the fortified barrier dividing El Paso from Mexico for the reduction in illegal flows.

And crime abated with the reduced human traffic from Juarez, considered one of the most dangerous places in the world due to drug-cartel violence, helping El Paso become one of the safest large cities in America.

Before 2010, federal data show the border city was mired in violent crime and drug smuggling, thanks in large part to illicit activities spilling over from the Mexican side. Once the fence went up, however, things changed almost overnight. El Paso since then has consistently topped rankings for cities of 500,000 residents or more with low crime rates, based on FBI-collected statistics. The turnaround even caught the attention of former Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and other Obama administration officials, who touted it as one of the nation’s safest cities while citing the beefed-up border security there.

[Deranged Rhino]

8 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

*pat pat pat*

 

Awww, it's so cute when he pretends he knows people. He thinks he has friends.

 

Give me data. Give me something that can be independently verified. Because all I've seen from you lot is:

 

"I FEEEEEEEELZ A BORDER WALL WILL WORK. NO, I AIN'T GOT NO PROOF, BUT GRANDPAPPY JIM SAYS THAT BROWN PEOPLE ARE RAPISTS, AND SO DID ORANGE MAN11111 WHY YOU DOUBT ORANGE MAN? yOU HATE AMERICA!!!11111"

 

 

I have almost shat myself laughing at your "feelz" comments, when I keep bringing independently verified facts, and you come with "NUH UH!!!"

 

It is like watching a special ed student try to get into a debate. At first, it's funny, but the more it's just...sad.

 

This thread, as well as the others I post in, are filled with information and data. 
 

You ignore them all. 

 

Because you run away from data that rebuts your preformed conclusions. It's what you do.

3 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

 

Cool. Love your...what does Rhino call them?

 

"Feelz"?

 

Going by information informed by history is the opposite of operating by feelz. 

 

Something you'd understand, or at least be honest about, if TDS hadn't addled your brain.

[DC Tom]

3 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

 

Cool. Love your...what does Rhino call them?

 

"Feelz"?

 

He calls them 5000 years of human history, I'm pretty sure.

[row_33]

13 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

You can keep staring at your own belly button if you prefer, but I'll take 5000 years of human history over the Cato Institute's paper musings.

 

nobody has a clue where anything is headed

 

they just read the latest headlines or DJIA closing and jump on it and act as if they knew already and how it will continue for eternity

 

and the next day it reverses and they etch-a-scetch a clean slate and project all over again

 

so lazy...

 

 

 

 

[TakeYouToTasker]

36 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

That's cute.

 

I didn't ask if Agent Uncle Jimmy ***** likes it. He and his SO are free to get into whatever "the brown people are raping me" fantasies that they like.

 

"Agent Uncle Jimmy *****", followed with accusations of racist rape fantasies. 

 

It's hard to imagine a less intellectually valid answer, but with you, that's par for the course.  It's the type of man you're unfortunate enough to be.

 

Though, as if that garbage wasn't bad enough, I think it's important to note that 52% of US border agents are Hispanic.  That's right.  More than 50% of the people you just accused of being racist hillbillies with "brown rape fantasies" are brown people.

 

Strong argument there.

 

Quote

I asked if the people, the people the Trump administration has tasked with stopping human trafficking and sex trafficking think it will do jack.

 

 

 

The answer is no.

 

 

Your first article, the one you chose to post as evidence of your position, is an interview with border patrol agents.

 

You can't posit evidence of your own position by citing the views of border patrol agents, and then dismiss the views of border patrol agents as irrelevant.

 

Do you have any idea how foolish you look right now?

 

Explain how that makes any ***** sense at all.

 

As an addendum: Your little article includes nothing on how effective a wall would be. At anything. 

 

*breaks out laughing*

 

Just to continue pointing out how stupid you are.

 

Oh my god, can you get out of a paper bag without dying of thirst? AHAHAHAHAHA

 

The source included data demonstrating that 89% of all border patrol agents were in favor of a wall, and thought it would be impactful.  7% disagreed.

 

I'll leave it to the reader to judge which one of us in a moron.

Edited January 18, 2019 by TakeYouToTasker

[Logic]

 

 

4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

This thread, as well as the others I post in, are filled with information and data. 
 

You ignore them all. 

 

Because you run away from data that rebuts your preformed conclusions. It's what you do.

Speaking of running way from posts filled with information and data...

Care to comment on the post I made today citing numerous facts and statistics pointing out the futility and ineffectiveness of the wall?

It included multiple quality and difficult-to-refute points and well reasoned arguments -- most coming from conservative outlets, no less -- and neither you nor any other seemingly wall-supporting person said a peep. 

The assumed moral and intellectual superiority -- not to mention hypocrisy -- of many on this forum is staggering. 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Logic

[ExiledInIllinois]

6 hours ago, snafu said:

 

You want the Canadians to relax their border questioning?

 

Have you ever crossed any international border that wasn't an actual port of entry?

 

 

 

Yes.  In the middle of Lake Erie.

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

https://nypost.com/2018/01/13/we-already-have-a-border-wall-and-it-works/

 

When charges of “racism” and “xenophobia” fail, Democrats’ fallback argument against President Trump’s proposed border wall is that it simply “won’t work,” so why waste billions building it? Tell that to the residents of El Paso, Texas.

Federal data show a far-less imposing wall than the one Trump envisions — a two-story corrugated metal fence first erected under the Bush administration — already has dramatically curtailed both illegal border crossings and crime in Texas’ sixth-largest city, which borders the high-crime Mexican city of Juarez.

In fact, the number of deportable illegal immigrants located by the US Border Patrol plummeted by more than 89 percent over the five-year period during which the controversial new fence was built, according to Homeland Security data I reviewed. When the project first started in 2006, illegal crossings totaled 122,261, but by 2010, when the 131-mile fence was completed from one end of El Paso out into the New Mexico desert, immigrant crossings shrank to just 12,251.

They hit a low of 9,678 in 2012, before slowly ticking back up to a total of 25,193 last year. But they’re still well below pre-fence levels, and the Border Patrol credits the fortified barrier dividing El Paso from Mexico for the reduction in illegal flows.

And crime abated with the reduced human traffic from Juarez, considered one of the most dangerous places in the world due to drug-cartel violence, helping El Paso become one of the safest large cities in America.

Before 2010, federal data show the border city was mired in violent crime and drug smuggling, thanks in large part to illicit activities spilling over from the Mexican side. Once the fence went up, however, things changed almost overnight. El Paso since then has consistently topped rankings for cities of 500,000 residents or more with low crime rates, based on FBI-collected statistics. The turnaround even caught the attention of former Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and other Obama administration officials, who touted it as one of the nation’s safest cities while citing the beefed-up border security there.

 

Quote

 

What do crime statistics show?

In his remarks, Paxton said El Paso had a high crime rate before the fence was constructed and that the rate of crime dropped substantially after it was completed.

That was not the case. 

Using Uniform Crime Reports from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the rate of violent crime in El Paso can be calculated by combining data reported by the El Paso County Sheriff's Office and the El Paso Police Department.

Looking broadly at the last 30 years, the rate of violent crime reached its peak in 1993, when more than 6,500 violent crimes were recorded.

Between 1993 and 2006, the number of violent crimes fell by more than 34 percent and less than 2,700 violent crimes were reported.

The border fence was authorized by Bush in 2006, but construction did not start until 2008. 

From 2006 to 2011 — two years before the fence was built to two years after — the violent crime rate in El Paso increased by 17 percent. 

 

 

https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/10/el-paso-crime-rate-topic-in-trump-roundtable-to-support-border-wall/2539838002/

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

 

 

Speaking of running way from posts filled with information and data...

Care to comment on the post I made today citing numerous facts and statistics pointing out the futility and ineffectiveness of the wall?
 

 

You really suck at yourself.

[Deranged Rhino]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

 

 

Speaking of running way from posts filled with information and data...

Care to comment on the post I made today citing numerous facts and statistics pointing out the futility and ineffectiveness of the wall?

It included multiple quality and difficult-to-refute points and well reasoned arguments -- most coming from conservative outlets, no less -- and neither you nor any other seemingly wall-supporting person said a peep. 

 

I have commented on it, as have others. Op-Eds in "conservative" outlets aren't evidence. They're a narrative. 

 

How much time have you spent along the southern border? How many ICE/DHS/CBP agents have you spoken with? How many times have you gone out with them on patrol to observe what they go through on a daily basis? 

 

If you do any of the above, and you can if you put forth the effort to travel and contact the offices, you'll find a much different perspective. 

 

The border wall is needed in certain areas to help stem the tide of human trafficking. This is not a debatable point. The wall works by forcing the traffic towards easier to detect areas and better policed areas. A wall alone is not the only answer or a fix all for the entire issue, no one has argued otherwise. Just as no one has argued the need for a border wall across the entire border (which those articles you cite spend most of their time debating). 

 

A wall, along with increased funding for technology and manpower is needed. All three. Not just one or two, but all three. It's not needed to deter immigration, my argument has nothing to do with immigration or that debate. A wall has everything to do with stopping the very real scourge of human trafficking across the southern border than many people in DC profit directly from keeping open. 

 

You seem not to care about that issue. That's where we differ.