Ball Security Not all that Important to Josh Allen

[K-9]

9 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

Hey, if calling another poster "stupid," and acting arrogant is your thing, well, you do you.  Darnold made plays when he needed to yesterday, Allen didn't.  Darnold played better yesterday. 

Allen didn’t make one play when he needed to yesterday? Not one? Really? If you can’t be intellectually honest about it, what’s the point in discussing it with you? 

[RyanC883]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Allen didn’t make one play when he needed to yesterday? Not one? Really? If you can’t be intellectually honest about it, what’s the point in discussing it with you? 

 

Darnold led his team on a game winning drive.  Made a fantastic pass over White.  Allen comes in and makes a pass to the Jets CB due to terrible ball placement.  Where is the intellectual dishonesty? 

Edited December 10, 2018 by RyanC883

[teef]

28 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

 

and the coach should say, "you deviate again, your going to deviate to the bench the next drive."   Pretty arrogant to be deviating from the coaching to heave the ball into the middle of the field when your not close to an all-pro. 

they're trying to develop a qb, not raise a 4 yr old.  i don't think allen deviates because he refuses coaching...he's just breaking down under the pressure.  when qbs make mistakes, put them back in and let them learn.  benching allen at this point gets you nothing.  make the mistakes and learn as much as you can this year.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

ZERO improvement from College to NFL.   Some people are so desperate for Allen to be the "answer" that they throw all objectivity out the window.  Yeah, his cast is bad, esp. the OL.   But will an improved OL improve Allen's touch, or his heaving it into the middle of the field?  Or his accuracy?   I hope so. 

 

I also hope the Bills get Allen a QB coach. 

 

 

 

 

OK, well, it's apparent you're unable to see growth in the man DESPITE his surroundings. Probably because you're a wrong-josher. So, there's truly no point in conversing with you any more. Best of luck.

 

[dubs]

2 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

ZERO improvement from College to NFL.   Some people are so desperate for Allen to be the "answer" that they throw all objectivity out the window.  Yeah, his cast is bad, esp. the OL.   But will an improved OL improve Allen's touch, or his heaving it into the middle of the field?  Or his accuracy?   I hope so. 

 

I also hope the Bills get Allen a QB coach. 

 

 

 

 

No offense RyanC883, but football might not be your thing if you really believe this. 

 

Allen, in fact, has gotten a ton better over the year and obviously since college. Even many of the bozos in sports media have acknowledged it. 

 

Josh Allen has a lot of room to improve no doubt. But let’s try and just have a reasonable set of expectations and some perspective on this. 

[dave mcbride]

32 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

No, Darnold isn't awful...he's a rookie.  This is what rookies look like...try watching the NFL occasionally.

 

Believe it or not, these guys both look MUCH better than Goff and Trubisky did as rookies...but hey, when you need to bang on a keyboard and get out some frustration, sometimes you're going to go ahead and toss the facts out the window in favor of raw emotion.

 

I get it, but it's stupid.

 

Oh, and who was better yesterday? Neither.  They both turned the ball over, they both missed opportunities, and they both put their team in position to win the game.  If not for 2 missed FGs we'd be sitting here talking about how Allen got the job done.

 

But hey, you do you man.

 

Ah, so the coach should tell his rookie QB not to take any chances in a lost season when the kid's trying to learn?

 

That would be unmitigated stupidity.

I agree mostly, but I do think Darnold was the better QB yesterday because he played better late. Also, Allen had four TO opportunities (one bad fumble, 2 INTs, and one drop of an easy INT on a terrible throw), while Darnold had 2 (one INT and one drop by Levi Wallace on what should have been an easy pick). 4 is a lot worse than 2. Plus Darnold averaged 2 yards per attempt more than Allen.  As for the two missed FGs, the second miss is one that should never have been tried, so I'm not giving credit to the Bills for that missed opportunity. They should have punted it or gone for it given the situation with Hauschka.

Edited December 10, 2018 by dave mcbride

[RyanC883]

2 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

OK, well, it's apparent you're unable to see growth in the man DESPITE his surroundings. Probably because you're a wrong-josher. So, there's truly no point in conversing with you any more. Best of luck. 

 

 

What growth have you seen? 

 

  You know what my agenda is: seeing the Bills win games.  Your agenda is defending JA at all costs.  I really hope he improves.  I've seen zero improvement, although pocket awareness has improved.  But the throwing has not.  Hopefully that's next. 

 

BTW, have a great day!   (not being sarcastic.  the internet is impersonal, and I want JA to be the answer.  But I need to see better accuracy and touch).  I guess we will all get our answers next year with an improved OL and WR and RB. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by RyanC883

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, RyanC883 said:

 

haahah.  you are too funny.   Allen ADMITTED he did some things (throw the ball into the middle of the field) that were bad.  And yeah, Darnold also did it.  Was also ridiculous for him to do it. 

 

Goff played the Bears last night, but I didn't see a lot of bonehead plays.  I saw a lot of WR's missing their routes.  

 

The issue with Allen is that we are seeing the same problems that we saw coming into the draft.  Accuracy and touch.  No improvement.  If he improved in one of those areas I'd be happy.  He hasn't. 

 

And I wouldn't want Darnold either. For the record, I think Allen is the better QB.  Darnold just had a better overall game yesterday.  He led his team on a game winning drive (aided by our terrible D play). 

Yes it was a bad play and a bad throw.  Yes he has to learn from it.  No it does not mean he doesn't listen to his coaches.  That is just hysteria on your part.

 

So when Goff throws a pick it's receivers, but when Allen does it's on him.  OK, right.

 

And to spend a second on your accuracy stuff.  To say he has shown no improvement is silly.  You like so many others confuse completion percentage with accuracy.  I have posted this elsewhere but will do so here so you can learn.  Let' say a passer throws 36 passes as Allen did yesterday, and completes 18.  That is a 50% completion rate, and to you and others that is somehow construed as the sky is falling, oh my God he's s inaccurate.

 

Now here's where doing some simple math will help you.  Multiply 36 x 0.6 (or 60% completion rate).  That gives you an answer of 21.  Or if he completes three more passes then he hits this magical 60% completion percentage that so many around here are wedded to as some sort of minimal Holy Nirvana of adequacy. 

 

Now then:  as they say let's go to the tape.  First half hits Clay right in the hands for what should have been a big gain.  What does Clay do?  Drops the ball.  Also first half: throws a very shot screen to Shady, who promptly drops the ball (which was probably OK since the play would have been blown up).  Then I believe second half, drills the ball right into Zay's chest, and what does Zay do?  Drops the ball.

 

Those three catches are made, all of which were accurate passes hitting guys right in the hands, and presto, we have a completion percentage you want.  And that doesn't even account for the throwaways when his WRs don't get separation or his O line acts like a sieve.  So let's just set this accuracy thing aside once and for all:  yes he can improve on things like his shorter routes and yes he can develop more touch, but he is not wildly inaccurate with the ball.

Enough already.  Young QBs need to develop and Allen is doing so.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, RyanC883 said:

 

Darnold led his team on a game winning drive.  Made a fantastic pass over White.  Allen comes in and makes a pass to the Jets CB due to terrible ball placement.  Where is the intellectual dishonesty? 

Did Allen make one play, ONE,  when he needed to in the entire game? Saying he didn’t is intellectually dishonest because he clearly did. 

 

Darnold made a few terrific plays and I give him credit. Has nothing to do with Allen, though. 

[thebandit27]

32 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

Hey, if calling another poster "stupid," and acting arrogant is your thing, well, you do you.  Darnold made plays when he needed to yesterday, Allen didn't.  Darnold played better yesterday. 

 

And the coach clearly, if you watched his press conference, was not happy with Allen throwing the ball into the middle of the field instead of out of bounds.  Telling a QB to take SMART chances is what a coach should do.  Heaving the ball into the middle of the field in that situation, that's unmitigatedly stupid.  But perhaps you need to actually think before responding instead of banging on a keyboard??

 

And no, Goff and Trubisky were not much better than Darnold or Allen as rookies.  Goff and Trubisky both had better completion percentages and QBR.  A little research would have helped you there.   Oh, and both were better in college.  What we are seeing here in Allen is a kid who thinks he is superman, and goes out and makes bonehead plays and doe not listen to coaching.  And we have seen no improvement in accuracy or touch.  Why will this improve next year?

 

We need a massive TE upgrade.  TE is supposed to be a rookie QB's best friend (or a good C, or RB).  We need to hit TE and C in FA. 

 

Don't get ruffled; I didn't call anyone stupid...I said that your take was stupid.  Hey, everyone has a stupid take every now and again; recover and move on...it happens.

 

And you're still completely wrong.  If the Jets' RB didn't score on 4th and goal, would Darnold still have made the plays that he needed to?  If your answer is no, well then that totally negates the idea that Darnold did what was necessary to win.  If your answer is yes, then you're tilting the board in Darnold's direction, because Allen got the offense in position to win the game had the ST unit made the 2 FGs that they missed.

 

I also never said that Allen didn't make a stupid play with his first INT, but again, when you're upset, you're going to say things without thinking.  Me, on the other hand, I know exactly what I wrote, which is why throwing mud at the wall is a bad approach for you to be taking with me.

 

You're correct that Goff and Trubisky were not much better than Darnold or Allen.  I'm the person that told you that Darnold and Allen are playing MUCH better football than either of those guys did as rookies.  Here's a suggestion: pay attention to what you're reading and writing.  Slow down.  Take a breath.  Relax.  Make sure what you're saying is true, and that it makes sense.

 

For instance, you said that neither Goff nor Trubisky were better than Darnold or Allen; I suspect you meant that they were indeed better, or else why say that when I already said it?  The problem is that it's not true in any way, shape, or form.

 

Trubisky was 4-8 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 31.6, 7 TDs, 7 INTs, and 2 rushing TDs with 10 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TrubMi00.htm

Goff was 0-7 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 18.9, 5 TDs, 7 INTs, and 1 rushing TDs with 5 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GoffJa00.htm

Darnold is 4-6 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 33.9, 12 TDs, 15 INTs, and 1 rushing TDs with 4 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm

Allen is 3-5 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 55.1, 5 TDs, 9 INTs, and 5 rushing TDs with 7 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm

 

So like I said; take a break for a bit, re-assess, and then come back and we can pick this up again.  Or not...either way is cool with me.

 

Be well.

9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I agree mostly, but I do think Darnold was the better QB yesterday because he played better late. Also, Allen had four TO opportunities (one bad fumble, 2 INTs, and one drop of an easy INT on a terrible throw), while Darnold had 2 (one INT and one drop by Levi Wallace on what should have been an easy pick). 4 is a lot worse than 2. Plus Darnold averaged 2 yards per attempt more than Allen.  As for the two missed FGs, the second miss is one that should never have been tried, so I'm not giving credit to the Bills for that missed opportunity. They should have punted it or gone for it given the situation with Hauschka.

 

I generally agree with most of that; the point is more that we need to be evaluating the QBs on a level playing field, and this dude here is not.

Edited December 10, 2018 by thebandit27

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 minutes ago, dubs said:

Ball security isn’t the most important thing for a QB. I think “ball security” is just a borderline meaningless statement that coaches and players say all the time. 

 

When yoh you are too concerned with ball security, you get Tyrod Taylor. 

 

More accurately it’s: making instant risk/reward trade off decisions and not making stupid decisions. Allen wasn’t great with that yesterday but he will get better. 

 

Correct... he’s got the athleticism, arm desire and attitude that are mostly uncoachable, and poor decision making which probably is coachable... 

 

I saw Mahomes do a very similar Bomb to tyreek back accross him body in the middle of the field on the run to his right.  In this case it worked, but it seemed just as unorthodox and risky as some of Josh’s work... 

 

if Alken doesn’t seem to any Bills fan, even the most casual observer, like the most promising young QB in buffalo we’ve seen in 2 decades, I’m just not sure what you’re seeing or what you remember from the past. 

[dubs]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes it was a bad play and a bad throw.  Yes he has to learn from it.  No it does not mean he doesn't listen to his coaches.  That is just hysteria on your part.

 

So when Goff throws a pick it's receivers, but when Allen does it's on him.  OK, right.

 

And to spend a second on your accuracy stuff.  To say he has shown no improvement is silly.  You like so many others confuse completion percentage with accuracy.  I have posted this elsewhere but will do so here so you can learn.  Let' say a passer throws 36 passes as Allen did yesterday, and completes 18.  That is a 50% completion rate, and to you and others that is somehow construed as the sky is falling, oh my God he's s inaccurate.

 

Now here's where doing some simple math will help you.  Multiply 36 x 0.6 (or 60% completion rate).  That gives you an answer of 21.  Or if he completes three more passes then he hits this magical 60% completion percentage that so many around here are wedded to as some sort of minimal Holy Nirvana of adequacy. 

 

Now then:  as they say let's go to the tape.  First half hits Clay right in the hands for what should have been a big gain.  What does Clay do?  Drops the ball.  Also first half: throws a very shot screen to Shady, who promptly drops the ball (which was probably OK since the play would have been blown up).  Then I believe second half, drills the ball right into Zay's chest, and what does Zay do?  Drops the ball.

 

Those three catches are made, all of which were accurate passes hitting guys right in the hands, and presto, we have a completion percentage you want.  And that doesn't even account for the throwaways when his WRs don't get separation or his O line acts like a sieve.  So let's just set this accuracy thing aside once and for all:  yes he can improve on things like his shorter routes and yes he can develop more touch, but he is not wildly inaccurate with the ball.

Enough already.  Young QBs need to develop and Allen is doing so.

 

He also has one of the highest yards in air per pass attempt in nfl history. And not surprisingly, the longer the pass the lower the completion rate. So yes, people need to really have an understanding of “accuracy” before commenting. 

 

He he can definitely get better, but I’m actually impressed with his placement. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Trubisky was 4-8 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 31.6, 7 TDs, 7 INTs, and 2 rushing TDs with 10 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TrubMi00.htm

Goff was 0-7 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 18.9, 5 TDs, 7 INTs, and 1 rushing TDs with 5 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GoffJa00.htm

Darnold is 4-6 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 33.9, 12 TDs, 15 INTs, and 1 rushing TDs with 4 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DarnSa00.htm

Allen is 3-5 as a rookie starter with a QBR of 55.1, 5 TDs, 9 INTs, and 5 rushing TDs with 7 fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm

 

 

I think this about kills off the notion that Allen hasn't performed well as a rookie. He's the only one of these guys with a positive TD/INT ratio, as well. All that while as I mentioned working with a bunch of insurance salesmen.

 

 

 

[Elite Poster]

Not sure that's what he meant

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Elite Poster said:

Not sure that's what he meant

 

It's not.

[Tenhigh]

11 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

What growth have you seen? 

 

  You know what my agenda is: seeing the Bills win games.  Your agenda is defending JA at all costs.  I really hope he improves.  I've seen zero improvement, although pocket awareness has improved.  But the throwing has not.  Hopefully that's next. 

 

BTW, have a great day!   (not being sarcastic.  the internet is impersonal, and I want JA to be the answer.  But I need to see better accuracy and touch).  I guess we will all get our answers next year with an improved OL and WR and RB. 

Say what?

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

I think this about kills off the notion that Allen hasn't performed well as a rookie. He's the only one of these guys with a positive TD/INT ratio, as well. All that while as I mentioned working with a bunch of insurance salesmen.

 

 

 

 

I usually look at TD:TO ratio for QBs as the key metric, and it's extremely rare to find a QB with a positive one.  It's almost always going to be negative (and sometimes scary negative too)

 

I mean, Trubisky's was 9:17

Goff was 6:12

 

Darnold and Allen are better, but not much, at 13:19 and 10:16, respectively

[dickleyjones]

19 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

ZERO improvement from College to NFL.   Some people are so desperate for Allen to be the "answer" that they throw all objectivity out the window.  Yeah, his cast is bad, esp. the OL.   But will an improved OL improve Allen's touch, or his heaving it into the middle of the field?  Or his accuracy?   I hope so. 

 

I also hope the Bills get Allen a QB coach. 

 

 

 

Zero eh? how did you measure that, exactly?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I usually look at TD:TO ratio for QBs as the key metric, and it's extremely rare to find a QB with a positive one.  It's almost always going to be negative (and sometimes scary negative too)

 

I mean, Trubisky's was 9:17

Goff was 6:12

 

Darnold and Allen are better, but not much, at 13:19 and 10:16, respectively

 

Good post!

 

Of note:

 

Tyrod Taylor last year had 18 TDs  (including rushing) with better OL and receivers, in a whole season Josh needs 8 more TDs to eclipse that mark while missing a month with lesser surrounding talent. As a rookie.

 

Again, if you can't see improvement in Buffalo's QB situation, you're actively trying not to.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Joe in Winslow

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, dickleyjones said:

Zero eh? how did you measure that, exactly?