A Few Thoughts About the Jets Game, in no particular order

[Stank_Nasty]

5 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Big Ben made countless atrocious throws today.   

 

That guy is on a crusade and can’t be trusted to make valid points on JA. 

Ben is the king of the “area code” throw. He’s got guys that routinely go get it and reward him for trusting them. 

 

Until we get those guys around Allen(or even just guys to catch regular accurate balls) guys like that character, Rober, will keep floating around like vultures after any lackluster result. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Stank_Nasty

[jrober38]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I disagree with both statements. Every QB in the NFL misses wide open receivers. And I don't know that Allen was missing a bunch of open guys today. The only passes I remember as being totally inaccurate were a dump off he threw at the RB's ankles - he does that too often right now - and a pass to McKenzie that was high but he still got his hands on it. I'm sure there's 1 or 2 more I'm forgetting. Let's put it this way, there were more drops from the receivers than there were inaccurate passes. And more breakdowns from the offensive line than both of those problems combined. I'm not expecting Allen to become super precise with his ball placement, but I do expect that we can improve the blocking and receiving which in turn will make our offense more productive. And I expect him to not throw that dumb interception again. He knows that was stupid.

 

To me it's simple. With a disaster of an offense around him and very little help from other sides of the ball he put up 23 points. I'm satisfied with that right now, of course he has to keep improving next season. His completion percentage was low but his completions averaged 11.4 yards. I think we will just have to get used to this style of play. He will never be a consistent 65% passer but he will move the chains and score points with his pure playmaking ability.

 

I don't think we can live with the player you just described on a long term basis.

 

I think there need to be major signs of improvement from him as a passer next year. Not to shock anyone, but in 3-4 years once he's taken 300-400 hits (sacks, tackles after running, roughing the passer calls, hits in the pocket) Allen isn't going to be running as much. 

 

As he gets older, and the wear and tear of the NFL takes its toll on his body, he's going to need to make a living from the pocket, and being able to live with passes thrown at running back's ankles and missed passes to open receivers down field won't be good enough. 

 

As for the interception - it was literally the same bone head throw he made against Green Bay. You'd have thought he'd have learned his lesson then, but he clearly didn't. Not only did he throw the pick today, but he attempted the exact same pass in the 3rd quarter, only that one managed to fall incomplete. 

[Coach Tuesday]

Other than the coaching, my biggest concern today was how poorly the young “core” played.  Zay, Dawkins and Tre - last year’s draft class - each had really bad games today.  If those guys can’t develop it will really set this team back.

[Dadonkadonk]

Almost all of the penalties called were good calls today.  Guys just continuing to make mistakes.  False start, lining up in the wrong spot on kick-off, OPI on screens.  These are basic football things that the Bills and the process continue to suck at.

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I just rewatched the Clay drop. 

 

He's running a post route which gets on him a bit faster than he expected, and he reaches out his arms trying to pluck the ball below his waist, which while running up the field is a tough catch to make as he's initially looking for the ball over his shoulder and it comes in lower than expected. 

 

Try it. Imagine you're looking for a ball over your shoulder, and then imagine the ball is thrown below your waist. That's not a natural catch position. 

 

Should the ball have been caught? Yup. 

 

Should the ball have been thrown better? Absolutely. 

 

The issue is that even if caught, Clay is going to the ground, negating any run after catch because the ball is too low. It's an over the shoulder throw off play action that Allen needs to drop in bucket, and because there's no air under the ball Clay has to adjust his arm placement and winds up reaching down for the ball and dropping it.

 

It's an easy throw that Allen needs to make. Clay is literally wide open with no defender covering him and the pocket is totally clean. 

I get it now.  Receivers should never have to adjust even a tiny bit to catch the ball, right?  When the ball hits you in the hands at your waist it's partly on the QB?  Come on, that's just laughable.

 

And yes Allen is still a work in progress.

[Bangarang]

Allen is the kind of MLB slugger that hits 40 home runs but has a .230 average. 

[Virgil]

8 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Virgil, I need these thoughts in order next time, its giving me Lupus

 

You just made my day!  Amazing reference and the perfect tie-in to screen name.  

 

Have you seen the YouTube video where they show all the times they mentioned the theory of it being lupus?

 

Also, it’s never lupus. 

[jrober38]

 

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I get it now.  Receivers should never have to adjust even a tiny bit to catch the ball, right?  When the ball hits you in the hands at your waist it's partly on the QB?  Come on, that's just laughable.

 

And yes Allen is still a work in progress.

 

He's WIDE OPEN and there's no pressure on Allen at all.

 

It's a 12 yard throw that I can make. Stop lowering the bar. 

[purple haze]

3 hours ago, jahnyc said:

The o-line is really bad and we probably need upgrades at four positions on the o-line.  Allen had no time to throw today and the running backs had no room to run.

Same as most weeks.  They aren't getting the job done consistently enough.  When the RBs can peel off some runs the o line winds up getting them tackled for loss several other times and one would think the RBs aren't doing good if one only looked at the stats.

[jrober38]

 

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Other than the coaching, my biggest concern today was how poorly the young “core” played.  Zay, Dawkins and Tre - last year’s draft class - each had really bad games today.  If those guys can’t develop it will really set this team back.

 

The Bills need to figure out that Zay is nothing more than a slot receiver in the NFL.

 

The guy cannot separate from boundary corners in man to man coverage. 

 

He needs to be used in the slot, where he can attack safeties and linebackers and find soft spots in zone coverage. Using him on the boundary shouldn't be an option. 

[WideNine]

32 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

There was a nice touch pass to one of the RB's out of the backfield.  A couple of his shorter sideline throws had nice touch as well.  He had one dead duck of a throw that he tried to make to a RB standing 5 yards away from him.  This is what we'll have to learn to live with - 1 or 2 of these types of throws.  The trade off will be a couple of 20 yard runs on 3rd & 10. 

 

This.

 

He had several nice touch throws, and then there was a screen play where he had too much time to think about taking the heat off his throw and it was way short.

 

Josh looked worse after he got hurt - no excuse, just an observation. Not sure where or how he is hurt - I am sure if you asked him, he would say everywhere.

 

I would like to see what Josh could do behind the kind of protection Darnold had today, where he could survey the field and get into a rhythm without feeling like he was on the verge of getting planted in the ground.

 

I think we need to go after some veteran FA o-linemen, because the whole group of youngsters out there now lack leadership and are skittish as colts, and a veteran presence can go further to improving these guys than any coaching will. Then fill in the gaps and depth with the draft.

[78thealltimegreat]

3 hours ago, Kemp said:

Allen is EXACTLY as advertised.

 

Strong arm and a whole bunch of the same negatives as in college.

 

Hopefully he gets better, but I never thought he would be much and he has done nothing to convince me otherwise. 

Well you’ll be severely wrong about that 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

 

He's WIDE OPEN and there's no pressure on Allen at all.

 

It's a 12 yard throw that I can make. Stop lowering the bar. 

Yep.  And he hit him right in the hands.  And he dropped the ball.  Like he almost put the ball through Zay's chest.  And he dropped the ball.

 

I have no problem saying Allen needs to continue developing.  Why do you not understand his teammates have a responsibility to do their jobs?

[stony]

7 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Other than the coaching, my biggest concern today was how poorly the young “core” played.  Zay, Dawkins and Tre - last year’s draft class - each had really bad games today.  If those guys can’t develop it will really set this team back.

Dawkins' play has been worsening.  Not good.  The other two just had a bad day imo.

[ColoradoBills]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

On WGR this morning, the pregame show..they made a point of saying they think people are too hard on the OL...it seemed the consensus they agreed upon was the OL was SLIGHTLY below average.  I disagree with that. I think they are really bad. Not that any team in a league has an OL that blows the other team off the ball (maybe Indy?), but this OL is far from average.  On pass protection, half the time they give Allen the 2-3 seconds he needs before he takes off by himself...the other half of the time someone is in his face before he finishes his dropback.  And run blocking....they have gone from one of the best to one of the worst. This OL is not slightly below average, they are bad.

 

"They" don't know what "they" are talking about.

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

I don't think we can live with the player you just described on a long term basis.

 

If he can get above 60% and still complete passes in big chunks then he will last a long time in the NFL. So far this season he is at 12 yards per completion. That would put our offense at 5th in the league in that stat, behind the Chiefs, Rams, Buccaneers, and Chargers. He is never going to be a precise passer, but his other elite traits can make up for it. Like any other QB the offense needs to be built around his skill set so we need receivers with a big catch radius. He can throw the ball to any level on the field but the receivers might need to adjust to the ball a little. That's the trade off you're accepting with him.

 

We should also keep in mind he was expected to be raw and he was drafted for what he'll be a year or two from now. If he can learn to read a defense consistently I think he will be great even with inconsistent ball placement because of his other skills.

Edited December 10, 2018 by HappyDays

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, Virgil said:

A game I expected to win.  A game that gave me the typical Bills confidence in the first quarter.  Then a game that lulled me to sleep and ended with us having a worse record than the Browns.  With that negative, I'm going to focus on the opportunities from the game first before closing it out on some positives for the remaining few weeks

 

1 - Crossman - Let's just get this out of the way now.  If you are going to own the entire special teams performance, then he gets credit for the fumble recovery on the kickoff.  That's where the positives end.  Week in and week out, his team finds a way to negatively contribute to the overall game and it needs to end.  It's very well possible that the talent on special teams is part of the issue as depth is an overall issue on the team, but this is just too often a topic of discussion each game.  The field position given to the Jets is the main reason they were even in this game.

 

2 - Offensive Line - This was probably one of the worst weeks for the offensive line in a while.  There was absolutely zero room for the running backs.  Allen was under pressure a lot, even though it was from the spy blitz not allowing Allen to execute a full play-action pass.  But overall, it's tough for any quarterback to look downfield when under almost constant pressure.  I thought the line was doing a lot better recently and I know we had some injuries, but we were getting schooled well before that.  Mills in particular whiffed on defenders quite a bit.

 

3 - Frazier - When up against a rookie qb who's prone to throwing interceptions, how do you not constantly pressure him in to making poor throws?  While holding them to 13 points through 3 quarters was a strong effort, and would have been less if not for special teams, the exotic blitzes we've seen the past few weeks went away.  Also, how many short yardages runs did we give up on obvious rushing situations?  Didn't we spend a ton of money on guys to prevent that from happening?  I'm sure there was a gameplan for the Jets and you can argue it's success, minus some last minute heroics, but the lack of pressure today was a problem.

 

4 -  You can trouble me for a warm glass of shut-the-hell-up. Now, you will go to sleep or I will put you to sleep. Check out the name tag. You're in my world now, grandma.

 

5 -  Penalties - This is going to be the last time I talk about this for the season.  There needs to be a serious offseason discussion in the NFL and in the Bills front office.  The process team is leading the league in penalties and we are not a strong enough team to overcome this.  Yes, there are some bad calls out there, including the no-call on the late hit on Hyde during one of his punt returns, but the overall quality and pace of the game is being affected every week.  There needs to be some level of judgement exercised about what's dangerous and preventative.  I'm curious to know the amount of 1st and +10 yard drives there has been this season.

 

6 - Allen - Allen continues his head scratching inconsistency.  He's still unphased by defenders in his face.  He doesn't care if it's 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 20, he's going to delivery solid strikes  down the field.  He does a great job of knowing when to take off with his feet, but only after keeping his eyes downfield first.  His two INT's were terrible throws.  One, he should have known to just throw the ball away.  The other was a really tight read with a bad throw to seal the game.  These are the kind of mistakes that he should grow from, but it's the misses to wide open guys by more than a few yards that have me worried.  However, for those comparing Darnold to Allen this game, mainly because of a beautiful deep throw by Darnold (Allen has already made quite a few of these btw), don't forget that Darnold had all day to throw and that makes a ton of difference.  I'm not saying one is better than the other based off this game, and the fact that's it's open to debate is a big win for the Bills since it wasn't even supposed to be close. 

 

7 - Daboll - For the most part, I'm liking Daboll more and more each week; and I was big on the "fire Daboll" train.  He called some good plays to create some form of respect for our rushing attack.  He got guys open past the sticks and gave Allen some targets.  Overall, execution was the real killer in today's game as well as lack of offensive line support.  The biggest difference between this Jets game and the previous was the lack of deep threat.  It's hard when watching on TV to know what's available downfield, but the lack of downfield attack coupled with lack of rushing attack made it a lot easier for the Jets defense to focus on the middle of the field.   Also, not sure if the trick play with Zay and Allen on 3rd and 3 was the right time for that call.

 

8 - Lorax - To me, the play of the game was the goal line stop on 2nd down by Lorax.  He showed patience, watched the line create the hole. and attacked it at the same time as the back.  Lorax attacked the whole and stopped the back for a loss.  Lorax keeps playing beyond his contract and age.  They may need to draft his replacement this offseason, but absolutely should be extended.  At this point, pay him until his performance falls off, not because typical players of his age don't contribute.

 

9 - Foster - If there's one player I want to see continue to develop over the last 3 games beyond Allen, it's Foster.  The fact that he put up a 100+ yard receiving game today and built on his momentum from the past few weeks is amazing considering his preseason performance and journey to the active roster.  Not only did he put up good yardage, but he also does a great job of finding holes in the opposing defenses zone and making big 3rd down catches.  In a season where wide receiver production has been a major point of contention, the emergence of a guy like Foster would be a huge win in not having another hole to fill this offseason.

 

10 - Around the league - As I'm watching the game to me, the entire NFL season got summed up by one stat.  The 4-7-1 Packers played the 4-8 Falcons this year.  Two the best NFL QB's are 3 games below .500 with only 3 games left.  The Browns have a better record than us.  The Dolphins beat the Pats in a shootout and last minute play.  Overall, this has been a crazy year with a lot of teams playing different games each Sunday.  We should have beaten the Dolphins last week, who beat the Pats.  We definitely should have beaten the playoff bound Texans who just had their win streak come to an end.  Overall, in a season where we always knew we'd be evaluating our team and getting to next season's draft and FA, I'll take the progress we've made on defense, the progress of Allen, and the emergence of Foster, Zay, and Milano.  

 

Go Bills!

Again, offensive penalties many times are because the players are overmatched talent wise especially the OLine penalties. Even false starts can be contributed to this at times...the player is trying to get any advantage he can and if he can start a split second early it lets him get depth on pass pro...

 

Dumb things like illegal formations, blocks in the back and offensive pass interference/illegal man downfield are really not excuseable as those are usually just not thinking penalties although sometime pass interference when they are blocking too early can simply be because the play didn't happen in the timeframe it was supposed to. Whether its because a defender got in the way of the passing lane or because the QB was under pressure too soon and had to elude it, most of the time these are highly dependant on timing...

Edited December 10, 2018 by matter2003

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Yep.  And he hit him right in the hands.  And he dropped the ball.  Like he almost put the ball through Zay's chest.  And he dropped the ball.

 

I have no problem saying Allen needs to continue developing.  Why do you not understand his teammates have a responsibility to do their jobs?

 

When have I let his team mates off the hook?

 

Jones is nothing more than a slot guy in the NFL. He can't separate from boundary corners in man coverage. 

 

Clay is getting cut at the end of the year. We have nothing at tight end.

 

The result isn't what I care about. I care about how Allen is executing the passes that are called, and in this particular play his pass was awful.

Zero pressure, perfect pocket, both linebackers frozen by the play action, and instead of dropping a 12 yard pass over his receivers shoulder, he throws it at his knees with no air under it and he has to fall to the ground making the catch.

 

The catch isn't important. It's whether a better more talented player would have actually been able to take advantage of a busted coverage with the same type of throw? Given that Clay had to fall over to try and catch the ball it would have been a wasted opportunity with any tight end replacing him because the throw was so off the mark. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

When have I let his team mates off the hook?

 

Jones is nothing more than a slot guy in the NFL. He can't separate from boundary corners in man coverage. 

 

Clay is getting cut at the end of the year. We have nothing at tight end.

 

The result isn't what I care about. I care about how Allen is executing the passes that are called, and in this particular play his pass was awful.

Zero pressure, perfect pocket, both linebackers frozen by the play action, and instead of dropping a 12 yard pass over his receivers shoulder, he throws it at his knees with no air under it and he has to fall to the ground making the catch.

 

The catch isn't important. It's whether a better more talented player would have actually been able to take advantage of a busted coverage with the same type of throw? Given that Clay had to fall over to try and catch the ball it would have been a wasted opportunity with any tight end replacing him because the throw was so off the mark. 

It was not below his waist.  You are full of it and making things up to fit your agenda.  Everyone here recognizes it.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

If he can get above 60% and still complete passes in big chunks then he will last a long time in the NFL. So far this season he is at almost exactly 12 yards per completion. That would put our offense at 5th in the league in that stat, behind the Chiefs, Rams, Buccaneers, and Chargers

He is never going to be a precise passer, but his other elite traits can make up for it. Like any other QB the offense needs to be built around his skill set so we need receivers with a big catch radius. He can throw the ball to any level on the field but the receivers might need to adjust to the ball a little. That's the trade off you're accepting with him.

 

We should also keep in mind he was expected to be raw and he was drafted for what he'll be a year or two from now. If he can learn to read a defense consistently I think he will be great even with inconsistent ball placement because of his other skills.

 

His conpletion percentage suffers greatly due to 2 things:

1) He has a much higher percentage of throws downfield(10+ yards and especially 15+yards) than most QBs which are always lower percentage throws.

 

2) He has a lot of half field reads where he rolls out to one side and is expected to throw it away if nothing is open. At least 4 or 5 throws a game are throwaways...most other QBs have 1 or 2...