One thought on the game, in a particular order

[RochesterRob]

29 minutes ago, OCinBuffalo said:

Well, here we are again, at this time and place of the season, with practice squad heroes, street FAs, and backups of backups....

 

...STARTING...as our defensive backs == CBs, safeties, whatever. This allowed the Jets back into a game where they were physically beaten in the trenches, both sides, just like last game. So please, tell me again about how things are won upfront...when we win upfront, and still lose the game. 

 

It's literally been 8+ years of the same exact thing. Again, we began the game with only one true starting NFL CB on the field, when we need 4. And, #1 guy decides to *%&* the bed. Which only reinforces the point: you can't expect a single CB to be the answer to all things passing in a season.

 

I have defined this problem, albeit obsessively,(but can you blame me after a decade+ of being right, and no action/change?) since 2005. We still have people, be they posters here, or decision-makers in the FO, or idiot media, that can't seem to process this simple concept: "it's a passing league", and teams do not have 2 starting CBs, they have 4. 4! Even if one grudgingly agrees that a slot CB is a starter(= 3rd LB only on field 30-40% of snaps => is he a starter?), it seems near impossible for that person to understand that you need a 4th corner to cover today's TEs/4 WR sets/RB out of the backfield today. Again: 4 Starters.

 

It makes no difference if you have 2 stud CBs. Today's QBs are simply going to find whoever is being covered by your #3-4 guys and throw it to them. And if anybody gets hurt?  How many times must we repeat the lesson? This is rapidly approaching Orwellian denial of reason. Why is there such a blind spot on this?

 

Answer: because at draft time, when we take a CB in the 4th round, or any round? Clowns abound screaming about how we could have taken a C/T/G. For literally 13 years the same nonsense: draft O line is the dullard's answer to everything, and yet: nothing.

 

You think I'm being overly hard on this point? Wait until the draft pick threads. When we take an any-round CB: same old crap from the same old posters.

  Keep losing games and Greedy Williams will be within reach.

[OCinBuffalo]

3 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

Where was the pressure? At all

We rushed 4 almost the entire game, and exclusively in the 4th. Thus, no excuse for 7 guys being unable to cover 3-4.

 

EDIT: Unless? 3 of those 7 don't belong on the field(yet, or ever).

Edited December 9, 2018 by OCinBuffalo

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, OCinBuffalo said:

We rushed 4 almost the entire game, and exclusively in the 4th. Thus, no excuse for 7 guys being unable to cover 3-4.

This ^ Also, our front four didn’t win much in the passing game today. Hardly a dominant performance. Darnold had clean pockets back there plus WRs that mostly catch the ball. 

[Roundybout]

7 minutes ago, stony said:

It ain't sexy, but I advocate taking a couple every draft. 

 

You will find guys like Taron Johnson or Kam Chancellor. You just have to try. 

[OCinBuffalo]

9 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

It's not just about having four Tre Whites in the defensive backfield. A great pass rush will also help even mediocre DBs because that rush makes the QB hurry his throws and make mistakes.

 

Going back to the 70s the Bills had one of the very best defensive secondary's in the league with Mario Clark, Charles Romes as they were #1 in passing attempts allowed and #1 in yards allowed. Yet not so great at stopping the run... so teams ran on them. 

 

My point here is no area of the team needs nothing but #1 picks or elite players. It's all about balance and finding good players at all positions. 

 

Buffalo lost to the Jets today because of poor special teams and almost no pass rush more then anything else IMO. It could be that the Bills defenders/rushers were being held by the Jets line and it wasn't being called due to one of the refs being disciplined because of Jerry Hughes. 

Buffalo stopped the run all day. They had a few lucky, un-called holding runs, but that is not why we lost. Special teams is irrelevant if you have a secondary that can cover all 4 guys: at best they get FGs, 8-90% of the time even when the ST gives up plays. We had no pass rush because we did not pass-blitz. Lots of run-blitz. Which means: we knew we were weak in coverage, so, even with trying to help that weakness, and take some away from the rush, we STILL couldn't cover when it counted most.

 

Again, it's always the same lame excuses/delusions. Again: you need 4 good CBs to play a game, and elite ones are a bonus. I'd rather have 4 good than 2 elite, and 2 mediocre.

Edited December 9, 2018 by OCinBuffalo

[The Frankish Reich]

Well ... we picked a CB in the 4th this year (Taron Johnson) and a S/CB in the 5th (Siran Neal), and used our trade-down 1st on a CB last year (White) and a 6th on a CB (Seymour) the year before and then traded him away, and a 2nd on Ronald Darby the year before that and then traded him away ...

... so I count 5 CBs in the last 4 drafts (if you count Neal).  So it's not for lack of drafting CBs, although drafting well would help, as would not trading away the good CBs you already have for one year of Jordan Matthews ...

[OCinBuffalo]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

Well ... we picked a CB in the 4th this year (Taron Johnson) and a S/CB in the 5th (Siran Neal), and used our trade-down 1st on a CB last year (White) and a 6th on a CB (Seymour) the year before and then traded him away, and a 2nd on Ronald Darby the year before that and then traded him away ...

... so I count 5 CBs in the last 4 drafts (if you count Neal).  So it's not for lack of drafting CBs, although drafting well would help, as would not trading away the good CBs you already have for one year of Jordan Matthews ...

I do not care. There is no difference between this year, and the last 10 years: we are still starting rookie/street FA/practice squad/random dude players at DB. We are still being burned late in the season routinely because of it. There is literally 0 difference between our pass defense problems last year, and this year. The only difference, which accounts for our record, is that our starting QB played most of last year, and this year he didn't. 

 

We can never be a serious playoff contender if we continue to pretend that it is 1985.

[VW82]

Solid points, and you forgot one: our head coach is a former NFL DB and DB coach. I'm sure the situation opposite Tre isn't lost on McD, and I wouldn't be surprised to see us take a corner on day one or two of the draft.  

[K-9]

The D line, in no way, shape, or form won their battle in the trenches today. This is obvious when you can’t generate one sack or hit on the opposing QB. 

 

That said, the point about having good CBs in today’s pass happy league is well taken. 

 

But that said, it took a couple perfect passes and an extended coverage play while Darnold scrambled and bought extra time (no CB can cover a receiver for eight seconds) to beat them. 

 

I don’t think our CBs lost us the game so much as Darnold made a few very good plays to win it. It’s ok to tip your hat to the opponent when it’s warranted.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

The D line, in no way, shape, or form won their battle in the trenches today. This is obvious when you can’t generate one sack or hit on the opposing QB. 

 

That said, the point about having good CBs in today’s pass happy league is well taken. 

 

But that said, it took a couple perfect passes and an extended coverage play while Darnold scrambled and bought extra time (no CB can cover a receiver for eight seconds) to beat them. 

 

I don’t think our CBs lost us the game so much as Darnold made a few very good plays to win it. It’s ok to tip your hat to the opponent when it’s warranted.

Yep.  @OCinBuffalo also misses that Darnold completed two of his biggest passes on our BEST CB in Tre White.  Not sure we can count on getting a guy better than him, let alone 4.

Edited December 9, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, OCinBuffalo said:

I do not care. There is no difference between this year, and the last 10 years: we are still starting rookie/street FA/practice squad/random dude players at DB. We are still being burned late in the season routinely because of it. There is literally 0 difference between our pass defense problems last year, and this year. The only difference, which accounts for our record, is that our starting QB played most of last year, and this year he didn't. 

 

We can never be a serious playoff contender if we continue to pretend that it is 1985.

This part I agree with. Trading Darby made no sense at the time other than "he's Rex's guy and I want my own guys" type of thinking (I know, I know ... he's hurt this year. But that doesn't make the trade smart in retrospect). Think about all the street guys we've signed to play DB over the last few years. Baccari Rambo anyone? 

[OCinBuffalo]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Yep.  The OP misses that Darnold completed two of his biggest passes on our BEST CB in Tre White.  Not sure we can count on getting a guy better than him, let alone 4.

No, I alluded to it in the OP. I specifically said that we can't count on 1 DB to be the answer to all things passing. We can't. The bottom line: opposing QBs have to see a swarm, not a single number to avoid pre-snap.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, OCinBuffalo said:

No, I alluded to it in the OP. I specifically said that we can't count on 1 DB to be the answer to all things passing. We can't. The bottom line: opposing QBs have to see a swarm, not a single number to avoid pre-snap.

Sure, but the two largest game-changing plays were on our #1 CB.  Having 3 other good CB's wouldn't have changed those plays, at all.

[OCinBuffalo]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

This part I agree with. Trading Darby made no sense at the time other than "he's Rex's guy and I want my own guys" type of thinking (I know, I know ... he's hurt this year. But that doesn't make the trade smart in retrospect). Think about all the street guys we've signed to play DB over the last few years. Baccari Rambo anyone? 

Look, I know this issue so well that I have the best comeback to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Cockrell

 

Yeah, yeah, we used a #4 pick on a guy who couldn't make our team, and ended up starting for the Steelers. Is that good? No. Do I like that? Of course not. The problem: short term thinking. We need a long-term plan to ensure a constant supply of CBs, not one year where we go all out on them and end up wasting resources.

 

And, like I said, it's not like we haven't had 8+ years of reasonable GMs to get this right.

4 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Sure, but the two largest game-changing plays were on our #1 CB.  Having 3 other good CB's wouldn't have changed those plays, at all.

It would have changed the 3 other 3rd down plays that had no business being caught with 7 guys back, and, we only needed 1 of them to win the game. That's what this is: %s. I don't expect even 4 all-pro CBs to stop everything. I do expect that I'm not going to have to check the internet to figure out who is playing DB for the Bills, in games 10-16, every damn year for 10 years in a row.

[Nihilarian]

6 minutes ago, OCinBuffalo said:

Buffalo stopped the run all day. They had a few lucky, un-called holding runs, but that is not why we lost. Special teams is irrelevant if you have a secondary that can cover all 4 guys: at best they get FGs, 8-90% of the time even when the ST gives up plays. We had no pass rush because we did not pass-blitz. Lots of run-blitz. Which means: we knew we were weak in coverage, so, even with trying to help that weakness, and take some away from the rush, we STILL couldn't cover when it counted most.

 

Again, it's always the same lame excuses/delusions. Again: you need 4 good CBs to play a game, and elite ones are a bonus. I'd rather have 4 good than 2 elite, and 2 mediocre.

That was a rookie QB back there (Darnold) who is leading the league in interceptions and on pace to break Peyton Manning's rookie INT record. Why not pass blitz if the front four aren't getting it done or are being held? The Bills not only didn't sack Sam Darnold, they didn't even get one hit on the guy!  The Jets got 3 sacks, 10 hits on Allen. 

 

I disagree that special teams are irrelevant when you have a coach that allows two big returns that allowed the Jets back into the game. One of them being an 86 yard kick return. Two missed field goals by Buffalo.

 

 

[OCinBuffalo]

1 minute ago, Nihilarian said:

That was a rookie QB back there (Darnold) who is leading the league in interceptions and on pace to break Peyton Manning's rookie INT record. Why not pass blitz if the front four aren't getting it done or are being held? The Bills not only didn't sack Sam Darnold, they didn't even get one hit on the guy!  The Jets got 3 sacks, 10 hits on Allen. 

 

I disagree that special teams are irrelevant when you have a coach that allows two big returns that allowed the Jets back into the game. One of them being an 86 yard kick return. Two missed field goals by Buffalo.

 

 

Yeah, because that was the gameplan == make the rookie throw. Do I agree with it? Probably not. I'd rather we rushed. But, I am not the coach. McD did what he thought would work and, just like last game(just like for countless games), for 2.5 quarters it did work. It worked until the Jets got desperate, and started making longer, high-risk throws. Which should work to our advantage...but it didn't, because we have (insert dude here) playing CB, again. 

[peterpan]

I don't get it.  The bills draft multiple DBs every year.  It hasn't worked very well for us (we've stunk for 20 years).    And you are complaining?? 

 

Meanwhile T Johnson has looked great (but now injured) and Our two good safety's were FA signings.

 

It seems the bills have done exactly what you wanted and have had no success untill recently. 

[Alphadawg7]

28 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Well ... we picked a CB in the 4th this year (Taron Johnson) and a S/CB in the 5th (Siran Neal), and used our trade-down 1st on a CB last year (White) and a 6th on a CB (Seymour) the year before and then traded him away, and a 2nd on Ronald Darby the year before that and then traded him away ...

... so I count 5 CBs in the last 4 drafts (if you count Neal).  So it's not for lack of drafting CBs, although drafting well would help, as would not trading away the good CBs you already have for one year of Jordan Matthews ...

 

Well McD has been 2 years, and Beane for 1 draft.  And they did pretty good in taking Tre and Taron.  Most of what you just said has literally zero relevancy to this current team and FO and none of them were part of anything that happened before McD and Beane got here

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, OCinBuffalo said:

I've been here since 2005, and I've done far more than my share of trolling. Ask anybody.

 

This is not that. This is literally same argument I've had with:

since 2005.

 

And here we are. I'm not saying Allen had all day to throw, or that our run blocking was any good, it was crap. I am saying that even with all that, the DBs lost us this game, not the lines.

Which DB got burned the most today? Was it the "shut down" first round pick? You remember.....the one we took after we traded away from 2 star quarterbacks.

 

I will be happy to talk with you more as soon as the drugs and alcohol you ingested wear off.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Bill from NYC

[The Frankish Reich]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well McD has been 2 years, and Beane for 1 draft.  And they did pretty good in taking Tre and Taron.  Most of what you just said has literally zero relevancy to this current team and FO and none of them were part of anything that happened before McD and Beane got here

Other than trading Darby, who would be (when healthy) clearly our 2nd best CB. Interesting ... you define away the evidence to the contrary and all of a sudden your point is proved!