ganesh Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 3 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said: Sammy and Marcel would have never fit it to the alleged process, guys that really wanted to be hear, work hard, sacrifice. Benjamin played 12+ games in the process.
downunderbill Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 3 hours ago, thebandit27 said: Nope...had they picked up Sammy's 5th-year option, he'd be on this team right now at the exact same cap hit as Benjamin. Guaranteed to only play part of the season though due to that foot. 3/4 in this year's case.
thebandit27 Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, downunderbill said: Guaranteed to only play part of the season though due to that foot. 3/4 in this year's case. Well, not guaranteed, but in any case I'd take his 3/4 season over what the team got out of Benjamin 100 times out of 100 1 1
DabillsDaBillsDaBills Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 We only saved 2 mil against the cap by trading Dareus. Most of his contract turned into dead cap after the trade. There was an out in his contract after this season. Given that we barely save against the cap by trading him, I would've rather kept him around.
Alphadawg7 Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, thebandit27 said: Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M. I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash. In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen. I dont understand your math. How is it a wash? One, its not just about the money, its about who we are paying the money too. And second, how is KB a wash with Sammy financially? Sammy is making $16M per, KB wasn't making close to that. We saved a ton moving on from Marcell and not keeping Sammy. And as much as I have been a believer in Sammy's talents, its also painfully clear he is not remotely close to living up to expectations of his contract. Rams replaced him for a guy that is only making $500k less than Sammy and gave up a first round pick to get him. And that guy Cooks, is grossly out performing what Sammy did in 16 full games on the same roster. Now Sammy has had a couple good games in KC but mostly been underwhelming in an offense that has a QB about to pass for around 50 TDs and around 5000 yards. So in two explosive offenses, Sammy is the one not performing statistically like his contract suggests. In LA, his value went further than the stat sheet in terms of his downfield threat opening up the game for others...however, Cooks is playing the same role and still grossly out performing Sammy in LA. This front office got a 2nd round pick and a quality player that helped us make the playoffs last year for a WR they were never going to pay the money he would command and were going to lose for nothing. Or they could have overpaid him to be an 800 yard receiver here too, which would be 300 yards more than he put up with McCoy, Goff, and Gurley as the #1 target (alleged #1 WR). Edited December 7, 2018 by Alphadawg7 1 1
billspro Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 I’m liking the direction of the rebuild. I expect them to have an amazing offseason and hopefully we see that pay off and beat the Pats next year. 1
QCity Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 3 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Marcel - not worth the money...lazy...is not improving the jags defense (you could make a case that he is hurting it for the amount he is getting paid but is not a team leader) Sammy - foot is hurt again....not living up to the draft status and cost on 3rd team has played with two different very good QBs. These are the players that we would have given contracts to if we did not trade them away for draft picks....our cap space would be nil.....and we would be right where we were. This is why they were let go...this is why we rebiult...this is why Beane and McD did what they did. It's been clear since the day they were moved. What took you so long?
billspro Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 13 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said: We only saved 2 mil against the cap by trading Dareus. Most of his contract turned into dead cap after the trade. There was an out in his contract after this season. Given that we barely save against the cap by trading him, I would've rather kept him around. Im fine with that, he doesn’t have the drive to be great anymore. Just an average NFL DT at this point. 1
John from Riverside Posted December 7, 2018 Author Posted December 7, 2018 1 minute ago, QCity said: It's been clear since the day they were moved. What took you so long? I have been there since day one of this......and taking a lot of heat for it I might add This is directed to the non believers 15 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said: We only saved 2 mil against the cap by trading Dareus. Most of his contract turned into dead cap after the trade. There was an out in his contract after this season. Given that we barely save against the cap by trading him, I would've rather kept him around. Why? So he can drag down the team? Or maybe your ok with him falling asleep in team meetings, smoking his fake weed, contantly being injured?
thebandit27 Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: I dont understand your math. How is it a wash? One, its not just about the money, its about who we are paying the money too. And second, how is KB a wash with Sammy financially? Sammy is making $16M per, KB wasn't making close to that. We saved a ton moving on from Marcell and not keeping Sammy. And as much as I have been a believer in Sammy's talents, its also painfully clear he is not remotely close to living up to expectations of his contract. Rams replaced him for a guy that is only making $500k less than Sammy and gave up a first round pick to get him. And that guy Cooks, is grossly out performing what Sammy did in 16 full games on the same roster. Now Sammy has had a couple good games in KC but mostly been underwhelming in an offense that has a QB about to pass for around 50 TDs and around 5000 yards. So in two explosive offenses, Sammy is the one not performing statistically like his contract suggests. In LA, his value went further than the stat sheet in terms of his downfield threat opening up the game for others...however, Cooks is playing the same role and still grossly out performing Sammy in LA. This front office got a 2nd round pick and a quality player that helped us make the playoffs last year for a WR they were never going to pay the money he would command and were going to lose for nothing. Or they could have overpaid him to be an 800 yard receiver here too, which would be 300 yards more than he put up with McCoy, Goff, and Gurley as the #1 target (alleged #1 WR). It's easy: had the team picked up Sammy's option year, he'd have been given a cap number equal to the average of the top 10 WRs in the league--that's true for any 1st round WR, and so his cap number would be identical to Benjamin's Moreover, he's a better player than Benjamin. Had the team kept him and let him walk in FA, they'd have gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick. And none of that is the point. I refuted John's claim that the team would have suffered cap-wise by keeping Dareus and Sammy--it's simply not true
ProcessTruster Posted December 7, 2018 Posted December 7, 2018 4 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Marcel - not worth the money...lazy...is not improving the jags defense (you could make a case that he is hurting it for the amount he is getting paid but is not a team leader) Sammy - foot is hurt again....not living up to the draft status and cost on 3rd team has played with two different very good QBs. These are the players that we would have given contracts to if we did not trade them away for draft picks....our cap space would be nil.....and we would be right where we were. This is why they were let go...this is why we rebiult...this is why Beane and McD did what they did. Is it becoming more clear? Its not all perfect.....I wanted to keep Woods but he didnt want to stay.....Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots..... Gilmore wouldn't come up and tackle my grandmother. Woods is a SoCal softy; his agent pulled him out. all your points are on target.. the process is working. This was all abundantly clear to me a year ago. Trust IT.
Alphadawg7 Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: It's easy: had the team picked up Sammy's option year, he'd have been given a cap number equal to the average of the top 10 WRs in the league--that's true for any 1st round WR, and so his cap number would be identical to Benjamin's Moreover, he's a better player than Benjamin. Had the team kept him and let him walk in FA, they'd have gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick. And none of that is the point. I refuted John's claim that the team would have suffered cap-wise by keeping Dareus and Sammy--it's simply not true No, Sammy would not have played this year on that deal, he would be at $16M per. Thats how this all played out. They declined Sammys option before trading him and before acquiring KB. Second, if they felt Sammy was worth top 10 money and a guy they wanted here for the rebuild, they would have picked the option up. But Sammy hasn't even produced at a level worthy of top 10 pay, in fact he hasn't come close...and I was a guy who wanted to keep Sammy and I can easily admit that he hasn't produced anything like he should at the money he currently makes or the money he would have made on an option. And MOST importantly...we netted both a player (who helped us make playoffs last year) and an asset that helped us land Allen WITHOUT giving up any future picks. So I cant see how this is a wash, we came up a lot moving on from Sammy when we did both for the cap and in our ability to rebuild this team. Not to mention, Sammy said himself he wasn't the best teammate here and we got rid of Dareus attitude as well. So like I said in my original post, its far from just a numbers game too. Beane made the right decisions on both, and for the record, I didn't love either decision when we made them. I wanted to see what a healthy Sammy could do (although felt we got good value in trade, I just wanted to see a healthy Sammy out there) and also thought we might get more for MD if we waited til the offseason. Beane proved he was right in both instances. 1 1
John from Riverside Posted December 8, 2018 Author Posted December 8, 2018 16 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: It's easy: had the team picked up Sammy's option year, he'd have been given a cap number equal to the average of the top 10 WRs in the league--that's true for any 1st round WR, and so his cap number would be identical to Benjamin's Moreover, he's a better player than Benjamin. Had the team kept him and let him walk in FA, they'd have gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick. And none of that is the point. I refuted John's claim that the team would have suffered cap-wise by keeping Dareus and Sammy--it's simply not true And if we would have given Marcel and Sammy extensions? (I think I am understanding your point about if we got rid of them after this year) My point is if we were not going to go with those players as being biulding blocks of our team then best to get rid of them when we could actually get draft picks for them. Which we did...which was part of the rebiuld (and also why we are eating a dead cap crap sandwich this year)
thebandit27 Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said: No, Sammy would not have played this year on that deal, he would be at $16M per. Thats how this all played out. They declined Sammys option before trading him and before acquiring KB. Second, if they felt Sammy was worth top 10 money and a guy they wanted here for the rebuild, they would have picked the option up. But Sammy hasn't even produced at a level worthy of top 10 pay, in fact he hasn't come close...and I was a guy who wanted to keep Sammy and I can easily admit that he hasn't produced anything like he should at the money he currently makes or the money he would have made on an option. And MOST importantly...we netted both a player (who helped us make playoffs last year) and an asset that helped us land Allen WITHOUT giving up any future picks. So I cant see how this is a wash, we came up a lot moving on from Sammy when we did both for the cap and in our ability to rebuild this team. Not to mention, Sammy said himself he wasn't the best teammate here and we got rid of Dareus attitude as well. So like I said in my original post, its far from just a numbers game too. Beane made the right decisions on both, and for the record, I didn't love either decision when we made them. I wanted to see what a healthy Sammy could do (although felt we got good value in trade, I just wanted to see a healthy Sammy out there) and also thought we might get more for MD if we waited til the offseason. Beane proved he was right in both instances. Honestly man, this isn't complicated. Had they picked up Sammy's option year, he'd have been under contract for this season at the same salary as KB--they were drafted in the same year If we aren't on the same page there then we're talking past each other
Scott7975 Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 3 hours ago, Chemical said: You wouldn’t swap a late second and Benjamin for a 3rd and Watkins?! Watkins cap hit the next two years is 19.2 mil and 21 mil. The guy's availability isn't good and neither are his stats. No, I wouldn't want Watkins.
thebandit27 Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: And if we would have given Marcel and Sammy extensions? (I think I am understanding your point about if we got rid of them after this year) My point is if we were not going to go with those players as being biulding blocks of our team then best to get rid of them when we could actually get draft picks for them. Which we did...which was part of the rebiuld (and also why we are eating a dead cap crap sandwich this year) Dareus is under contract for another 2 years, and Sammy would likely leave in FA, so he'd be gone just like Benjamin.
dollars 2 donuts Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, thebandit27 said: Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M. I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash. In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen. I get ya, bandit, however it isn’t really a wash as Sammy is getting 16 million and kelvin was getting 8. sorry if brought up later in the thread. Edited December 8, 2018 by dollars 2 donuts
thebandit27 Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said: I get ya, bandit, however it isn’t really a wash as Sammy is getting 16 million and kelvin was getting 8. sorry if brought up later in the thread. No worries--I think folks are forgetting that the team could have had Sammy here for 2018 at the same cap figure as KB has they not declined his option year. 1
Bob in STL Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 The rebuild really comes to a peak in the next offseason. How will they use the $90m in cap space wisely? Will they have a strong draft? It’s too early to grade the rebuild. Yes, making the playoffs while clearing cap space was good in 2017. The results of the 2018 draft, specifically Allen and Edmunds will be the keys to it all. There are are many holes to fill and depth is a problem. This loooks like a team being built for 2020’s.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 2 hours ago, thebandit27 said: Honestly man, this isn't complicated. Had they picked up Sammy's option year, he'd have been under contract for this season at the same salary as KB--they were drafted in the same year If we aren't on the same page there then we're talking past each other Watkins was a higher pick in the 1st so he would be at a bit higher salary - $13M and change as I recall.
Recommended Posts