Rochesterfan Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Play is 1st & 10 from the Buff 35, 7:56 in the 4th. Most people consider this an overthrow by Allen. I have a WR technique question for those of you who played WR or have scouted or coached WR. So the start of the route is beautiful for Foster. Does a great job "selling" the CB, jukes him out of his shorts and blows by him inside. But at about the Phins 45 yd line, he starts looking back over his L shoulder and keeps looking back, which must inevitably slow him down. It's not until he gets to the 20 yd line that he looks ahead and seems to accelerate. The ball looks to be a yard or so past his outstretched hands. Questions are: 1) is this a route mismatch between Foster and Allen? Does Foster think the ball is gonna be an intermediate throw and that's why he starts looking for the ball soon as he beats his man? 2) or is this a technique flaw on a deep route - where Foster should not be looking back, he should be running full-out for longer than he is? 3) or maybe it's a perfect route by Foster and an overthrow by Allen? But I don't recall having seen a WR on a deep route looking over his shoulder for 25 yds instead of "running like hell" Thoughts? I don’t think it is a route mismatch because Allen spends a bunch of time looking the safety off - I don’t think he wanted the seam before the safety it was an over the top throw all the way. I think the WR has to look back to see the QB throw and then gauge where the ball is heading and get to that spot - sometimes that means looking away from the throw and sprinting and then picking up the ball again. I think Foster has some issues with this mainly due to the fact that he has probably never played with a QB that can out throw his speed. So he has some technique to work on along with timing. As for the throw - early in the year this was an underthrow by Allen by sometimes as much as 5 yards causing the WR to have to really adjust. I think this is the next step in his progress - getting the ball out in front. Now the final part is getting that sync to drop it in their perfectly. I think the throw could of used a little air to allow it to settle a bit and give Foster more time to adjust. Allen’s arm is amazing and I think sometimes that causes him to hold the ball a quarter of a second to long and throw a laser rather than a more lofted pass - giving his receivers less time to adjust. Finally - it is naturally a low percentage pass - guys like Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben, etc. miss this same pass even with guys they have worked on it for years with. I think it is hard to lay to much blame without giving a bit to both guys. What I want to see is them - make this connection on this route. Show me some progress. What I have seen is Foster is not bad on these deep crossing routes like his touchdown against the Jets - it was not a deep bomb, but he was tracking the ball with his eyes mostly still looking forward. He has more trouble on the deeper throws where he has to look back over the shoulder to adjust to the throw. He also seems to be better looking over his right shoulder than his left. It may be technique or player driven, but they may have to adjust his route and have it closer to the sideline and allow the throw to bring him back toward the middle of the field. Edited December 5, 2018 by Rochesterfan
billsredneck1 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Play is 1st & 10 from the Buff 35, 7:56 in the 4th. Most people consider this an overthrow by Allen. I have a WR technique question for those of you who played WR or have scouted or coached WR. So the start of the route is beautiful for Foster. Does a great job "selling" the CB, jukes him out of his shorts and blows by him inside. But at about the Phins 45 yd line, he starts looking back over his L shoulder and keeps looking back, which must inevitably slow him down. It's not until he gets to the 20 yd line that he looks ahead and seems to accelerate. The ball looks to be a yard or so past his outstretched hands. Questions are: 1) is this a route mismatch between Foster and Allen? Does Foster think the ball is gonna be an intermediate throw and that's why he starts looking for the ball soon as he beats his man? 2) or is this a technique flaw on a deep route - where Foster should not be looking back, he should be running full-out for longer than he is? 3) or maybe it's a perfect route by Foster and an overthrow by Allen? But I don't recall having seen a WR on a deep route looking over his shoulder for 25 yds instead of "running like hell" Thoughts? i'm going with no.2. i thought he was making progress in that area....ie td pass vs. jags, but must be a hard habit to break. i believe it can be fixed over time.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 As I posted before, Foster ran an excellent route and I can't see anything he could have done better. He sold the out that Howard bit on and was wide open for a TD.
billsredneck1 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So what should he be doing during the deep ball route? Running like hell until the ball gets to the point where he can track it without looking back? Or ?? Deep ball WR technique education, please. i think it could be practiced more. josh says just get to x yd. line. foster has a pre determined distance and spot. it should help train him not to turn around too soon. do this with a combination of routes...of course after mastering the fly route....or whatever you wanna call it. it should be practiced over and over. Edited December 5, 2018 by billsredneck1
CSBill Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 8 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: My thoughts on this play haven’t changed since Sunday... Foster has struggled with tracking the deep ball since college and hasn’t struggled in the pros... I said immediately after the play that he slows down while tracking the ball and that was a weakness in college imo it was a beautiful deep ball which any high quality deep ball receiver should have and would have caught hopefully it’s something that will be improved Everyone slows down when they look up to track the ball. The same thing happens in baseball, we are always telling young players not to do that, get to the spot, then reach to catch the ball.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Play is 1st & 10 from the Buff 35, 7:56 in the 4th. Most people consider this an overthrow by Allen. I have a WR technique question for those of you who played WR or have scouted or coached WR. So the start of the route is beautiful for Foster. Does a great job "selling" the CB, jukes him out of his shorts and blows by him inside. But at about the Phins 45 yd line, he starts looking back over his L shoulder and keeps looking back, which must inevitably slow him down. It's not until he gets to the 20 yd line that he looks ahead and seems to accelerate. The ball looks to be a yard or so past his outstretched hands. Questions are: 1) is this a route mismatch between Foster and Allen? Does Foster think the ball is gonna be an intermediate throw and that's why he starts looking for the ball soon as he beats his man? 2) or is this a technique flaw on a deep route - where Foster should not be looking back, he should be running full-out for longer than he is? 3) or maybe it's a perfect route by Foster and an overthrow by Allen? But I don't recall having seen a WR on a deep route looking over his shoulder for 25 yds instead of "running like hell" Thoughts? Nice topic. To me a pass with that low of an arc is coming fast. And with little adjustment time. If it’s not perfect, there’s no chance. More air air under the deeeo ball please
Magox Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 It's an overthrow. You can see Foster really accelerating and pulling away from the DB, hard to imagine how he could have gotten much faster than he had already been running. And man, I always knew Foster was fast but over the past few weeks I've been very impressed with Fosters game speed and acceleration. I dont think his 40 time does his game speed justice.
vincec Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 13 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: As I posted before, Foster ran an excellent route and I can't see anything he could have done better. He sold the out that Howard bit on and was wide open for a TD. Agree. It’s amazing how nothing was actually his fault in this game. overthrow Foster... bad route by Foster underthrow Clay... drop by Clay behind Jones over the middle for TD... Jones ran the wrong route interception over the middle... bad route by Benjamin Apparently he played a perfect game. The greatest rookie QB ever. 2
bills11 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 To me it seems to me a result of one of the things Josh is working on right now his velocity arc etc on throws..and timing the throw just needed a bit more air under it..that will come with time and chemistry ..so far he's thrown several deep balls to foster 2 were perfect jags and vikes game drop ..same vikes game 1st quarter he didnt put enough air under it foster was wide open for a TD deep.
BB@Shooter Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 9 hours ago, Warcodered said: That's a throw where they really have to be completely in sync I'm not really sure who to blame there. I think that play is just going to take more repetition for them to be more consistent. I agree with this. I guess it depends on what the receivers coach is preaching . And Allen could have put a little more air under it or a little less distance. But overall the hope is to one day have the timing down. And if they do.... watch out. Good catch Hapless. I wouldn't have put that much thought into it or broke it down. Now I am curious as to what the receiver coach thinks about it.
thebandit27 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 He missed him...not by much, but yeah, that's a miss. The ball needed to either come out earlier or have more air under it. Could an elite deep-ball tracker like Hill, Hilton, or Watkins make that play? Probably, but Foster isn't that guy, so his QB needs to throw a better ball. It's not like the Clay play where any pass catcher should have that. 3
buffaloboyinATL Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Questions are: 1) is this a route mismatch between Foster and Allen? Does Foster think the ball is gonna be an intermediate throw and that's why he starts looking for the ball soon as he beats his man? 2) or is this a technique flaw on a deep route - where Foster should not be looking back, he should be running full-out for longer than he is? 3) or maybe it's a perfect route by Foster and an overthrow by Allen? But I don't recall having seen a WR on a deep route looking over his shoulder for 25 yds instead of "running like hell" Thoughts? If the throw is designed to be thrown to a spot then he needs to keep his head forward and get close to that spot before he looks for the ball. It is like in baseball where they say to turn and run under the ball before you turn back and track it. It is hard to believe something simple like raining your glove or looking back too soon can slow you down, but it does. That being said, it is a lower percentage play that takes chemistry between the receiver and QB to accomplish. Hopefully, that is being developed as we speak.
boyst Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.shakinthesouthland.com/platform/amp/2010/3/6/1330505/wr-basics-stance-lining-up-and Found this to be insightful and would be helpful for the basics and fundamentals of wr
CommonCents Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 Best deep ball tracker in the league is Lockett. I have seen him slow down on long passes just so he can accelerate again and get that last second separation so he can avoid being tackled.
boyst Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 Also saw this from urban meyer @YoloinOhio https://coachtube.com/course/football/the-fundamentals-of-coaching-receivers/117885 Urban meyer teaching his WR tech. ??? Dudes never really been a WR coach, tho.
CommonCents Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Boyst62 said: Also saw this from urban meyer @YoloinOhio https://coachtube.com/course/football/the-fundamentals-of-coaching-receivers/117885 Urban meyer teaching his WR tech. ??? Dudes never really been a WR coach, tho. FWIW Deanglo Hall was all over Meyer yesterday. Saying his offense is a gimmic and he doesn’t teach his WRs how to run routes. He is cousins with Percy Harvin and blamed Urban for his lack of development.
boyst Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Commonsense said: FWIW Deanglo Hall was all over Meyer yesterday. Saying his offense is a gimmic and he doesn’t teach his WRs how to run routes. He is cousins with Percy Harvin and blamed Urban for his lack of development. I agree fully with this but hearing how urbans mind works is quite amazing. He's much more colorful and pleasant than folks like Saban who is acting like he wants to imitate Belichick. Both are insufferable. Edited December 5, 2018 by Boyst62 1
Shaw66 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Maybe if he gets more practice reps with Allen and some good WR coaching he will figure it out and it will "click"? But if it's a natural spatial perception that lets a guy see the ball launched and somehow translate that into projection of where it will be 50 yds downfield - it may be he never will get it. Someone else commented on this, and I think this is the right answer. We don't know the future, but assume for this discussion it's three years from now, Allen is acknowledged as a true star in the league, and Foster is his deep threat, like Marvin Harrison was for Peyton. What are the announcers going to be saying about them? They're going to talk about all the time Allen and Foster spent after practice, working on communication on all their favorite routes. For example, they're going to be saying that Foster learned not to look for the ball too early on that route, that Allen learned to lead Foster one way or another. Whatever the details, they're going to be saying that Allen and Foster had a much deeper understanding of what each is going to try to do on the play. You're right, maybe they'll never get it. But it's that kind of special relationship that develops over time that makes certain passer-receiver combinations so deadly. If Allen and Foster are completing that pass two years from now, it will because they've learned to do some little things AND to expect the other guy to do some little things.
PolishPrince Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 11 hours ago, BillsFan692 said: Thoughts are that there is no 60+ yard throws that are perfectly accurate 100% of the time. Those are really low percentage plays. I think both did pretty good and it was close. Sometimes they will catch people and sometimes itll be a near miss. This, I cant believe how many articles and posters point to this "miss" showing an example of "how inaccurate Josh is." The throw was a step away from being a dime of a throw at 70 yards in the air as pressure was starting to get in Josh's face. People want to site to other QB's making this throw... when they do, they typically throw a bit of a duck (I think on purpose) which is good and bad. Good = Gives WR time to get under the ball, or work back to it if needed (***** Clay!).. Bad = gives chance for DB to also recover to make play on ball. What I like about Allen's ball is it still has velocity on it and comes down at a tighter angle. To be honest, its going to make a lot of his deep throws like this a tad lower completion percentage - however with this kind of throw its a typical "my guy will get it, or no one" so less chance for an INT.
Antonio Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 There is no way Allen could throw that ball any better without laser help. But Foster ran it perfectly as well. When you come out of your break you always have to look for the ball, then as soon as is thrown you have to track it and run full speed to where you see it going. It was really close. If I could change something to make it work is just for Allen to throw it a tad earlier and with a litte more air under it so he doesnt have to throw it that far.
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