Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 Play is 1st & 10 from the Buff 35, 7:56 in the 4th. Most people consider this an overthrow by Allen. I have a WR technique question for those of you who played WR or have scouted or coached WR. So the start of the route is beautiful for Foster. Does a great job "selling" the CB, jukes him out of his shorts and blows by him inside. But at about the Phins 45 yd line, he starts looking back over his L shoulder and keeps looking back, which must inevitably slow him down. It's not until he gets to the 20 yd line that he looks ahead and seems to accelerate. The ball looks to be a yard or so past his outstretched hands. Questions are: 1) is this a route mismatch between Foster and Allen? Does Foster think the ball is gonna be an intermediate throw and that's why he starts looking for the ball soon as he beats his man? 2) or is this a technique flaw on a deep route - where Foster should not be looking back, he should be running full-out for longer than he is? 3) or maybe it's a perfect route by Foster and an overthrow by Allen? But I don't recall having seen a WR on a deep route looking over his shoulder for 25 yds instead of "running like hell" Thoughts? 1
BillsFan692 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 Thoughts are that there is no 60+ yard throws that are perfectly accurate 100% of the time. Those are really low percentage plays. I think both did pretty good and it was close. Sometimes they will catch people and sometimes itll be a near miss. 6
Buffalo716 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Play is 1st & 10 from the Buff 35, 7:56 in the 4th. Most people consider this an overthrow by Allen. I have a WR technique question for those of you who played WR or have scouted or coached WR. So the start of the route is beautiful for Foster. Does a great job "selling" the CB, jukes him out of his shorts and blows by him inside. But at about the Phins 45 yd line, he starts looking back over his L shoulder and keeps looking back, which must inevitably slow him down. It's not until he gets to the 20 yd line that he looks ahead and seems to accelerate. The ball looks to be a yard or so past his outstretched hands. Questions are: 1) is this a route mismatch between Foster and Allen? Does Foster think the ball is gonna be an intermediate throw and that's why he starts looking for the ball soon as he beats his man? 2) or is this a technique flaw on a deep route - where Foster should not be looking back, he should be running full-out for longer than he is? 3) or maybe it's a perfect route by Foster and an overthrow by Allen? But I don't recall having seen a WR on a deep route looking over his shoulder for 25 yds instead of "running like hell" Thoughts? My thoughts on this play haven’t changed since Sunday... Foster has struggled with tracking the deep ball since college and hasn’t struggled in the pros... I said immediately after the play that he slows down while tracking the ball and that was a weakness in college imo it was a beautiful deep ball which any high quality deep ball receiver should have and would have caught hopefully it’s something that will be improved 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 5, 2018 Author Posted December 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: My thoughts on this play haven’t changed since Sunday... Foster has struggled with tracking the deep ball since college and hasn’t struggled in the pros... I said immediately after the play that he slows down while tracking the ball and that was a weakness in college imo it was a beautiful deep ball which any high quality deep ball receiver should have and would have caught hopefully it’s something that will be improved So what should he be doing during the deep ball route? Running like hell until the ball gets to the point where he can track it without looking back? Or ?? Deep ball WR technique education, please.
Warcodered Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 That's a throw where they really have to be completely in sync I'm not really sure who to blame there. I think that play is just going to take more repetition for them to be more consistent. 5 1
eSJayDee Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 I don't have any particular expertise, but I have noted that most "bombs" only travel about 50 yards in the air. As this one traveled 65+, it certainly seems reasonable that Foster start looking for the ball WELL before it's arrival. Further, I'd like to add that a 65 yd pass that's only off by less than 6' is still pretty accurate. It's unfortunate that in this case w/ Foster being so open, a 5 yards underthrow, would've yielded a better result than a 2 yd overthrow. Then again, it's also possible that he was so open cuz the defender didn't expect/believe that a ball could/would be thrown that far.
Buffalo716 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So what should he be doing during the deep ball route? Running like hell until the ball gets to the point where he can track it without looking back? Or ?? Deep ball WR technique education, please. That is a difficult question.... when people talk about quarterbacks and they talk about “it” factor , it is almost the same with a Deep threat WR all the great deep threats have an “it” factor... and what most coaches and scouts see as the “it” factor is the ability of the receiver to kick into “another gear” when the ball is in the air a natural phenomena... desean jackson , Sammy Watkins, Ty Hilton, tyreek Hill etc all have a natural ability to kick it into overdrive when the ball is in the air deep down field... add an extra 2-5 mph and track it down Foster sometimes loses a step when he starts tracking... he needs to keep that extra gear and find it when the ball goes up... it’s something he is really inconsistent at He can set up a nice route and beat his man... but when the ball is up 50-60 yards downfield he loses a step He seems to track over his shoulder the whole time which slows him down . He needs to find the ball in the air... then sprint to the spot and then locate and make a play he finds the ball, and then tries tracking it while running which slows him down a tad... he needs to react and just fly 3
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 5, 2018 Author Posted December 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: That is a difficult question.... when people talk about quarterbacks and they talk about “it” factor , it is almost the same with a Deep threat WR all the great deep threats have an “it” factor... and what most coaches and scouts see as the “it” factor is the ability of the receiver to kick into “another gear” when the ball is in the air a natural phenomena... desean jackson , Sammy Watkins, Ty Hilton, tyreek Hill etc all have a natural ability to kick it into overdrive when the ball is in the air deep down field... add an extra 2-5 mph and track it down Foster sometimes loses a step when he starts tracking... he needs to keep that extra gear and find it when the ball goes up... it’s something he is really inconsistent at He can set up a nice route and beat his man... but when the ball is up 50-60 yards downfield he loses a step He seems to track over his shoulder the whole time which slows him down . He needs to find the ball in the air... then sprint to the spot and then locate and make a play he finds the ball, and then tries tracking it while running which slows him down a tad... he needs to react and just fly Well, the good news is, he def. has that extra gear. About the 20 yd line he turned it up but how. And the start of the route was a thing of beauty. DB lost his jock and trailed the rest of the way. But you're exactly right, Foster was tracking over his shoulder the whole time, starting before Allen actually threw it. And no one can run full speed like that. Maybe if he gets more practice reps with Allen and some good WR coaching he will figure it out and it will "click"? But if it's a natural spatial perception that lets a guy see the ball launched and somehow translate that into projection of where it will be 50 yds downfield - it may be he never will get it.
TigerJ Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 I have never played WR, or organized football for that matter, so mine can hardly be considered an expert opinion, but deep balls like that are always considered a low percentage pass for a reason. The longer the pass attempt the more opportunity for some little (essential detail) to go awry. The distance the ball travels magnifies the effect of any ittle aberation that might occur. The receiver is nowhere near the catch point when the QB is letting go of the ball. Wind, the receiver's speed, tiny variations in the QBs mechanics and effort are all going to affect the play. QBs are not machines, and a football playing field is not a controled lab, so it is not possible for the pass to be completed with machine like consistency and precision.
Buffalo716 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Well, the good news is, he def. has that extra gear. About the 20 yd line he turned it up but how. And the start of the route was a thing of beauty. DB lost his jock and trailed the rest of the way. But you're exactly right, Foster was tracking over his shoulder the whole time, starting before Allen actually threw it. And no one can run full speed like that. Maybe if he gets more practice reps with Allen and some good WR coaching he will figure it out and it will "click"? But if it's a natural spatial perception that lets a guy see the ball launched and somehow translate that into projection of where it will be 50 yds downfield - it may be he never will get it. This will be the ultimate reason he either becomes a very good deep threat or is out of the league in 2 years He HAS flashed the ability to locate and track the deep ball at an NFL level but then regresses on some passes... he needs to find the consistency which can only come with more reps and time with Josh Allen and the coaches... The good news is that Foster is a baby doe. Fresh and green. He doesn’t have many bad habits that he has built up with game time because he hardly played at Bama... The Bills coaches can and are building him from the ground up. Literally molding him to be the receiver they want him to be... you can’t always do that with a finished product If the Bills take the right approach, there is no reason he cannot be built into a top end deep threat because he has displayed that second gear... He is in a victor Cruz mold... UDFA who can fly but needs to be taught how to be a WR 1 1
Dadonkadonk Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 Low percentage pass and no WR is going to start looking for the ball when already 40 yards downfield. They will start to look sooner. That is a seam route that probably has a window of 20-25 yards down field - behind the MLB and in front of the safety against most defenses. He probably looked back at the correct time.
JimmyNoodles Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) Once the receiver breaks open he's going to look for the ball. Best thing QBs can do with single coverage is put air under the ball and let the receiver adjust to it. Allen can throw that a little earlier and a little easier. He's learning that most throws don't have to be rockets. Edited December 5, 2018 by JimmyNoodles
BullBuchanan Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) Allen needs to learn how to drop those in the bucket. He just doesn't have that timing down yet. He also did this in college all the time. The zones that Allen is throwing to down the field are much larger right now when compared to the great deep ball throwers in the game today, and some of them don't have anywhere near the arm that he has. In general Allen has a serious flaw, maybe his biggest, with gauging power. You see it on the short throws all the time, and I think it's also happening here. If the kid learns a little touch, he'll be deadly. Edited December 5, 2018 by BullBuchanan
transplantbillsfan Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 Wasn't there a deep throw early this year where the exact same thing happened with the WR starting to look back for the ball insanely early, obviously slowing down the WR? I think it was Foster on that play, as well. Wish I could remember the exact play or game.
Thurman#1 Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Questions are: 1) is this a route mismatch between Foster and Allen? Does Foster think the ball is gonna be an intermediate throw and that's why he starts looking for the ball soon as he beats his man? 2) or is this a technique flaw on a deep route - where Foster should not be looking back, he should be running full-out for longer than he is? 3) or maybe it's a perfect route by Foster and an overthrow by Allen? But I don't recall having seen a WR on a deep route looking over his shoulder for 25 yds instead of "running like hell" Thoughts? Hapless, just watched this several times in slo-mo on GamePass. It's a double move, and Allen starts the play looking to the left to draw the safety away from Foster. Foster hits the second move at the Bills 47, with the CB having turned his hips outside. At that instant, Foster knows he's going to be wide open. The one deep safety is responding to Allen's eyes and is heading to to the left side of the field and even though right now the CB is a couple of yards deeper than Foster, Foster has faked him out of his jock. Nobody's going to catch him and he knows it. The CB actually stumbles and puts his hand on the ground. Foster knows he has him beat with nobody to worry about. He looks back at the Bills 48 or so. Allen moves his front foot right to line up with Foster as Foster crosses the 50. He's still looking down the field to make sure he doesn't trip over the CB, whose leg is actually right in front of Foster. Foster clears the CB at the 48 and immediately looks back. Allen has started his passing motion. He has hopped off his back foot forward to gather momentum and his arm starts the motion as Foster is at the 46. This is a perfectly timed play. Receivers have to adjust to bombs, as the QB should ideally throw it longer or shorter or left or right to lead him away from defenders and make the catch easier depending where the defenders are. The instant Foster has his line, Allen knows it and starts to throw. I just quickly found a bomb from Fitzy to DeSean Jackson. 37 yards in the air and he turns his head after 12 yards. There's a deep center safety and so he decides he has to veer outside a bit and the instant he makes that decision he's turning his head. Jackson runs quite a bit more than half the route with his head turned. This is the way these things usually go if the CB is beat early. The receiver has to adjust to the QB's throw but also wants to let the QB know where he's going by pointing to it. So he wants to give the QB as large a time and space window to throw into as possible depending on the defense's response. Sometimes the QB throws late. Other times on time. Other times maybe early. The receiver's job is to be prepared for any of these if at all possible. When he looks back, it's generally called "making yourself available" to the QB. If you're not looking, the QB can't know if you'll see the ball. On most plays you want to make yourself available as soon as you know what's happening and think you're open. Precise timing routes can be exceptions. But a ball going 60 yards in the air isn't a precise timing route. It's got to be two people working in sync as best they can and that involves the reciever making himself available and making it easier to adjust to the ball. The receiver wants to turn and look as soon as he can. There are exceptions but this isn't one. It was just a slight overthrow. Hopefully as they get more used to each other, there will be fewer of these, but every QB makes them sometimes. Edited December 5, 2018 by Thurman#1 1 1
ProcessTruster Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 6 hours ago, Warcodered said: That's a throw where they really have to be completely in sync I'm not really sure who to blame there. I think that play is just going to take more repetition for them to be more consistent. Agreed. Bills WRs going forward need to adjust to the fact that you cannot outrun Allen's deep ball. Not possible. Just keep sprinting. The ball will meet you. Just takes time. Foster learned his lesson. He's probably been outrunning QBs arm strength for the past 15 years. Not any more. Trust It. Ooops, I said it again. 1
boyst Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: That is a difficult question.... when people talk about quarterbacks and they talk about “it” factor , it is almost the same with a Deep threat WR all the great deep threats have an “it” factor... and what most coaches and scouts see as the “it” factor is the ability of the receiver to kick into “another gear” when the ball is in the air a natural phenomena... desean jackson , Sammy Watkins, Ty Hilton, tyreek Hill etc all have a natural ability to kick it into overdrive when the ball is in the air deep down field... add an extra 2-5 mph and track it down Foster sometimes loses a step when he starts tracking... he needs to keep that extra gear and find it when the ball goes up... it’s something he is really inconsistent at He can set up a nice route and beat his man... but when the ball is up 50-60 yards downfield he loses a step He seems to track over his shoulder the whole time which slows him down . He needs to find the ball in the air... then sprint to the spot and then locate and make a play he finds the ball, and then tries tracking it while running which slows him down a tad... he needs to react and just fly Good answer. Haven't read them all yet tho... There was an old quote a coach used to tell us. "Don't look for the ball, wait for the ball.". That may not be it but it was close to that. His philosophy was a good QB will get you the ball without having to look for it and a good WR will be patient to get to it.
GunnerBill Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 It isn't a fault of when he turns his head..... it is what happens next. His brain doesn't seem to compute what he sees and work out how he needs to adjust quickly enough. 2
vincec Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 Looked like a slow read and a slightly late throw. The WR was open and the ball should have been thrown as soon as he made the double move, IMO. Every split second you wait makes the throw longer and more difficult. Allen has the arm to wait an extra split second but maybe not the accuracy.
Recommended Posts