C.Biscuit97 Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 48 minutes ago, eball said: To think the Bills went into this season relying upon Benjamin and Holmes as significant members of the WR corps...ouch. I don't care who you blame -- Beane, McD, Whaley (for the cap situation) -- that's just awful. Whaley??? ? the guy who put together a receiving core of Watkins, Woods, Hogan (all 3 who just played in championship games), and Goodwin. Come on, that’s crazy. its totally on McBeane. They saw Benjamin’s work up close in Carolina and decided to package picks for him. They hired Zay Jones’ college coach and traded up for him instead of just staying put and taking JuJu or Kupp. They took Austin Prohel because SM was friends with his dad. They took the second best slot receiver on Clemson. they have done a great job on the defensive side of the ball. But they have been dreadful on offensive and that’s to be expected when you have a defensive coach running your franchise. The need is very clear so this is a monster offensive draft for them.
eball Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Whaley??? ? the guy who put together a receiving core of Watkins, Woods, Hogan (all 3 who just played in championship games), and Goodwin. Come on, that’s crazy. its totally on McBeane. They saw Benjamin’s work up close in Carolina and decided to package picks for him. They hired Zay Jones’ college coach and traded up for him instead of just staying put and taking JuJu or Kupp. They took Austin Prohel because SM was friends with his dad. They took the second best slot receiver on Clemson. they have done a great job on the defensive side of the ball. But they have been dreadful on offensive and that’s to be expected when you have a defensive coach running your franchise. The need is very clear so this is a monster offensive draft for them. I think everyone shares the blame. Benjamin was a different receiver after the 2nd knee injury. Whaley totally buggered the Bills' cap and over drafted Watkins. Woods, Hogan, and Goodwin left in free agency. Nobody looks good with respect to the Bills' WR situation. But McBeane did find Foster, and Zay made strides this season. And they drafted Allen, although I know you're still on the fence about that. We're all in agreement it is on McBeane to fix the problem, regardless of what share of the blame they deserve for causing it.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 29 minutes ago, eball said: I think everyone shares the blame. Benjamin was a different receiver after the 2nd knee injury. Whaley totally buggered the Bills' cap and over drafted Watkins. Woods, Hogan, and Goodwin left in free agency. Nobody looks good with respect to the Bills' WR situation. But McBeane did find Foster, and Zay made strides this season. And they drafted Allen, although I know you're still on the fence about that. We're all in agreement it is on McBeane to fix the problem, regardless of what share of the blame they deserve for causing it. With all due respect, you’re reaching on the Whaley point. Money had nothing to do with the receiver situation. They were trying to sign John Brown this offseason and Maclin last offseason. And Benjamin showed up looking like a o linemen while McBeane were in Carolina!!! There were plenty of signs of him being terrible. In terms of the receiver position, they get a F the last 2 years. It’s a good wr draft so hopefully, they can figure it out. But it’s been really bad.
MJS Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 32 minutes ago, eball said: I think everyone shares the blame. Benjamin was a different receiver after the 2nd knee injury. Whaley totally buggered the Bills' cap and over drafted Watkins. Woods, Hogan, and Goodwin left in free agency. Nobody looks good with respect to the Bills' WR situation. But McBeane did find Foster, and Zay made strides this season. And they drafted Allen, although I know you're still on the fence about that. We're all in agreement it is on McBeane to fix the problem, regardless of what share of the blame they deserve for causing it. Isaiah McKenzie was also a quality contributor at WR. I think the plan has been 1) Fix the defense, 2) Fix the cap, 3) Get the QB, 4) Build the offense around that QB. We're now in phase 4. Definitely time for McDermott and Beane to prove they can build an offense. I still think we'll have some growing pains next season, but we should be contending for a playoff spot (if all goes to plan). 2020 is the year we should be expecting to be major contenders. Hope it works out like that. 6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: With all due respect, you’re reaching on the Whaley point. Money had nothing to do with the receiver situation. They were trying to sign John Brown this offseason and Maclin last offseason. And Benjamin showed up looking like a o linemen while McBeane were in Carolina!!! There were plenty of signs of him being terrible. In terms of the receiver position, they get a F the last 2 years. It’s a good wr draft so hopefully, they can figure it out. But it’s been really bad. Money absolutely is the issue. That and no WR wanting to come here because it is WR purgatory. Maybe Allen changed some minds around the league, but it seems only Buffalo fans know that Allen showed some promise in his rookie year. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, MJS said: Isaiah McKenzie was also a quality contributor at WR. I think the plan has been 1) Fix the defense, 2) Fix the cap, 3) Get the QB, 4) Build the offense around that QB. We're now in phase 4. Definitely time for McDermott and Beane to prove they can build an offense. I still think we'll have some growing pains next season, but we should be contending for a playoff spot (if all goes to plan). 2020 is the year we should be expecting to be major contenders. Hope it works out like that. Money absolutely is the issue. That and no WR wanting to come here because it is WR purgatory. Maybe Allen changed some minds around the league, but it seems only Buffalo fans know that Allen showed some promise in his rookie year. Who were they prevented from signing? And why did that make they draft poorly at the wr position or make bad receiver trades? its ok to say they were just flat out bad at evaluating the position and hope they get better. 1
Magox Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Who were they prevented from signing? And why did that make they draft poorly at the wr position or make bad receiver trades? its ok to say they were just flat out bad at evaluating the position and hope they get better. Bad at evaluating the position? They made a bad trade for Benjamin who just about everyone thought was a good trade and then they picked used a few late round draft choices and a UDFA to get Foster, who is an extremely promising pickup. I'd say based on the draft capital they have used for wide receivers since Beane has taken over, that is not too bad. Much better than Whaley can say for himself. It's laughable that you seem to think that Watkins was a good draft from Whaley. That is 10 x worse than any wide receiver move Beane has made with this organization. The Watkins trade was one of the worst Bills moves this organization has made over the past decade, that along with the Maybin and Manuel draft choices. And Whaley had his hands on two of those moves. Edited January 25, 2019 by Magox 1
eball Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: its ok to say they were just flat out bad at evaluating the position and hope they get better. Sure it's ok, if that's an accurate representation of the total picture. I don't think it is. I don't believe for one second McBeane looked at the WRs going into last year and thought "we're set." It simply wasn't a priority given the other issues to address. They brought in a bunch of young guys and let it play out over the course of the season. KB was supposed to be the veteran leader (but not the future) and was a bust. Zay improved. They unearthed Foster -- surely you have to give them credit for that? McKenzie also a very good find during the season. I'm not going to bash them for a 7th round pick that didn't pan out.
Bing Bong Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, Magox said: Bad at evaluating the position? They made a bad trade for Benjamin who just about everyone thought was a good trade and then they picked used a few late round draft choices and a UDFA to get Foster, who is an extremely promising pickup. I'd say based on the draft capital they have used for wide receivers since Beane has taken over, that is not too bad. Matthews and Kelvin for one. And no not "just about everybody" thought Kelvin Benjamin was a good trade.. I didn't, Panthers FO did. Also who cares if that was the case? Their job isn't to make trades you like at the time, it's trades you like 2 years later. He's bad at evaluating the WR position thus far because most of the WRs he started this year can barely make an NFL roster just one year later. The fact that we rolled into seasons with Andre Holmes, Deonte Thompson, Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews.. says we couldn't evaluate the position: for virtue of having one of the worst WR depth charts I can ever think of. Getting a guy like Foster is great. It's a feather in the ole cap for Beane. Something good GMs do every now and then: get an above average WR. Beane's done it once. Otherwise everybody acts like McKenzie is some superstar in the making. We should have 5 McKenzie's. Having one WR that belongs on a WR depth chart only stands out here because we started out with 5 that didn't. Fosters a 7/10, McKenzie a 4/10, KB 2/10, Matthews 1/10, Holmes 1/10, Deonte Thompson 1/10. It's not a good average. McKenzie should be the worst caliber WR we start (ie servicable). Instead he's a godsend because he's so much better than the other guys. Not saying he hasn't really given it the ole college try for a bonafide receiver, but his opinion that his WR depth chart was passable to start the season is the most damning of all. It's what he thought passed for good WRs. Guys like McKenzie set the bar for WR depth. 1
Magox Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 Just now, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said: Matthews and Kelvin for one. And no not "just about everybody" thought Kelvin Benjamin was a good trade.. I didn't, Panthers FO did. Also who cares if that was the case? Their job isn't to make trades you like at the time, it's trades you like 2 years later. He's bad at evaluating the WR position thus far because most of the WRs he started this year can barely make an NFL roster just one year later. The fact that we rolled into seasons with Andre Holmes, Deonte Thompson, Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Matthews.. says we couldn't evaluate the position: for virtue of having one of the worst WR depth charts I can ever think of. Getting a guy like Foster is great. It's a feather in the ole cap for Beane. Something good GMs do every now and then: get an above average WR. Beane's done it once. Otherwise everybody acts like McKenzie is some superstar in the making. We should have 5 McKenzie's. Having one WR that belongs on a WR depth chart only stands out here because we started out with 5 that didn't. Fosters a 7/10, McKenzie a 4/10, KB 2/10, Matthews 1/10, Holmes 1/10, Deonte Thompson 1/10. It's not a good average. McKenzie should be the worst caliber WR we start (ie servicable). Instead he's a godsend because he's so much better than the other guys. Not saying he hasn't really given it the ole college try for a bonafide receiver, but his opinion that his WR depth chart was passable to start the season is the most damning of all. It's what he thought passed for good WRs. Guys like McKenzie set the bar for WR depth. You are adding Matthews to that list? That's nuts, he was never meant to be some superstar pickup, he was meant to fill a hole and part of a throw in for the trade. The value of the Darby pick wasn't in Matthews rather the draft choice picked up. So on that point you fail. In regards to Benjamin, yeah it was a near consensus that it was a good pickup. Everyone seemed to think that we got over on the Panthers. It didn't work out and for that they get a bad grade on their trade. With that said, there is a distinct possibility that Foster could end up being a bonafide starting WR in this league and there is a chance that McKenzie could end up being a contributing WR in this league for some time. If those things occur, considering the draft capital that was used even including the 3rd rounder that we lost out on Benjamin, then the capital that was used to obtain one potential quality starter and one potential contributor means that overall for what they shelled out they got good value. Whereas Whaley completely struck out with the Watkins trade.
gobills1212 Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 On 12/4/2018 at 6:02 PM, PlayoffsPlease said: Ding ***** , the B word ate bread. I for one am just impressed and wld like to thank the person who actly used the search function and found the proper thread for this so we all have the context of the convo. Most wld just simply make a new thread. Not implying im the thread police or anything, but i just wanted to say its nice to see a message board function as intended:)
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Magox said: You are adding Matthews to that list? That's nuts, he was never meant to be some superstar pickup, he was meant to fill a hole and part of a throw in for the trade. The value of the Darby pick wasn't in Matthews rather the draft choice picked up. So on that point you fail. In regards to Benjamin, yeah it was a near consensus that it was a good pickup. Everyone seemed to think that we got over on the Panthers. It didn't work out and for that they get a bad grade on their trade. With that said, there is a distinct possibility that Foster could end up being a bonafide starting WR in this league and there is a chance that McKenzie could end up being a contributing WR in this league for some time. If those things occur, considering the draft capital that was used even including the 3rd rounder that we lost out on Benjamin, then the capital that was used to obtain one potential quality starter and one potential contributor means that overall for what they shelled out they got good value. Whereas Whaley completely struck out with the Watkins trade. I’m sure Zay Jones will put up 100+ in a championship and get $16 million/ year. Put it this way: you should never trade up a non qb. But I’d rather trade up for Sammy than Zay Jones. And there is no comparison between the receiving core that Whaley built compared to this current one. 1
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 I'm not so high on Zay Jones. He doesn't catch contested passes, lacks explosiveness and isn't even reliable on the easy ones. I'd like to see them bring in Golden Tate to play the slot- not only more reliable but far more dangerous after the catch too. No DC is staying up at night worrying about ZJ. Then either trade for, or draft someone to play outside opposite Foster. Push Zay down the depth chart. And I know it's easy to say "only 2 years he can get better" but I just don't see the upside here, he's physically just not a dangerous athlete at WR in addition to the dropsies. Foster was an excellent pickup.
MJS Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Who were they prevented from signing? And why did that make they draft poorly at the wr position or make bad receiver trades? its ok to say they were just flat out bad at evaluating the position and hope they get better. They were prevented from signing any decent WR who got a contract for more than peanuts. Every GM in the league misses on draft picks. It's not an evaluation thing, in my opinion. The draft is luck of the draw outside of the first couple of rounds, and even in the first couple rounds there is luck involved. And I think they showed that they could identify and bring in WR talent to help, including Foster and McKenzie. But they fired their WR coach, so they obviously believe that the group as a whole was not helped by that position coach enough and are looking to improve there.
CookieG Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: With all due respect, you’re reaching on the Whaley point. Money had nothing to do with the receiver situation. They were trying to sign John Brown this offseason and Maclin last offseason. And Benjamin showed up looking like a o linemen while McBeane were in Carolina!!! There were plenty of signs of him being terrible. In terms of the receiver position, they get a F the last 2 years. It’s a good wr draft so hopefully, they can figure it out. But it’s been really bad. Not to mention that they paid KJ $8 million this past year. It doesn't really matter how many fans thought it was a good trade. If there was any WR in the NFL that the McBeane Trust should have known about, it was KJ. There's no excuse for missing his lack of work ethic. From Holmes to Boldin to Holmes to Matthews to KJ to Kerley to Pryor to Coleman and so on down the line, this will basically be the 3rd WR corps in 3 years, assuming they try to upgrade it. Saying it is bad is being kind. 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, CookieG said: Not to mention that they paid KJ $8 million this past year. It doesn't really matter how many fans thought it was a good trade. If there was any WR in the NFL that the McBeane Trust should have known about, it was KJ. There's no excuse for missing his lack of work ethic. From Holmes to Boldin to Holmes to Matthews to KJ to Kerley to Pryor to Coleman and so on down the line, this will basically be the 3rd WR corps in 3 years, assuming they try to upgrade it. Saying it is bad is being kind. ...sure as hell is...we've had key positional failures for years post Kelly, with QB spot being clear cut #1 closely followed by TE spot at #2.......so now WR spot is added to the list?.....along with a shaky OL?.....Jesus, why not relegate your QB to "chuck 'n duck" versus a gurney ride?......
CookieG Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 21 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...sure as hell is...we've had key positional failures for years post Kelly, with QB spot being clear cut #1 closely followed by TE spot at #2.......so now WR spot is added to the list?.....along with a shaky OL?.....Jesus, why not relegate your QB to "chuck 'n duck" versus a gurney ride?...... Some are better at judging a certain position or positions than they are judging others. Ozzie is considered one of the best GM's of his era, and is great at evaluating OL and D7, but not so good at evaluating WR's and in most cases, QB's. Based on their history with signing WR and OL ...I've always thought they needed to bring in talent evaluators for those positions. Because if they fail again, this could be their butts, and should be. 1
Bing Bong Posted January 25, 2019 Posted January 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Magox said: You are adding Matthews to that list? That's nuts, he was never meant to be some superstar pickup, he was meant to fill a hole and part of a throw in for the trade. The value of the Darby pick wasn't in Matthews rather the draft choice picked up. So on that point you fail. He didn't "fill the hole bud". I didn't fail on the point that we played Matthews for 10 games. Even if your pure speculation that Matthews was a pure throwaway players is correct we got a crappy one and started him lol. Hence whoever acquired and played him gets just as much blame as whoever acquired and played McKenzie gets credit. My point is we had god awful receivers this year and last to start the season. Tell me they were a really good WR corps and then maybe you can think I missed the point. And I don't give a crap about what you and your buddies thought about KB. He sucked. By that logic I thought Sammy was going to be great! Guess we should give Whaley props there for getting a guy we "thought would be good". No, hence why we retrospectively hate Whaley's move.. and why we shouldn't treat KB with one iota of difference. 1
LSHMEAB Posted January 26, 2019 Posted January 26, 2019 17 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said: He didn't "fill the hole bud". I didn't fail on the point that we played Matthews for 10 games. Even if your pure speculation that Matthews was a pure throwaway players is correct we got a crappy one and started him lol. Hence whoever acquired and played him gets just as much blame as whoever acquired and played McKenzie gets credit. My point is we had god awful receivers this year and last to start the season. Tell me they were a really good WR corps and then maybe you can think I missed the point. And I don't give a crap about what you and your buddies thought about KB. He sucked. By that logic I thought Sammy was going to be great! Guess we should give Whaley props there for getting a guy we "thought would be good". No, hence why we retrospectively hate Whaley's move.. and why we shouldn't treat KB with one iota of difference. The receivers are a work in progress in the receiver threads and the receivers are all trash in the Allen threads. Rinse and repeat. Time to start winning. 1
Bing Bong Posted January 26, 2019 Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said: The receivers are a work in progress in the receiver threads and the receivers are all trash in the Allen threads. Rinse and repeat. Time to start winning. These aren't the droids.. I mean blow out losses.. you're looking for. I'm being led to believe everything is peaches. Until we WIN and lose competitively I'd like to see these components start working and not be lead to believe I'm crazy for seeing reasons why we sucked for so many games. Our recievers were apparently hamstrung by Tyrod until we learned they were just bad when we trotted out a no 7 overall pick and got the same results with slightly better WRs. Edited January 26, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P 1
Saxum Posted January 26, 2019 Posted January 26, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 1:12 PM, MJS said: Money absolutely is the issue. That and no WR wanting to come here because it is WR purgatory. Maybe Allen changed some minds around the league, but it seems only some Buffalo fans know that Allen showed some promise in his rookie year. Corrected.
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