Dispelling the notion that Allen needs to "stop running so much"

[Max Fischer]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

And as to the notion that he'll get hurt if he keeps running so much? I just flat out disagree. First, the argument that running QBs get injured more often is not really based on fact. Instead, most QB injuries happen IN the pocket, not outside of it. Furthermore, Allen's sheer size should lessen his injury vulnerability. Look at Cam Newton, who is very similar in size and running style. How many games has he missed due to injury in his career? 

 

Agree. This question has been examined many times and there is NO correlation between a "running" QB and more frequent injury.  In fact, statistically, there is no difference at all between "pocket" and "mobile" passers.  The only correlation between injury and a play is the sack, and even that's on the edge.  

 

I apologize for the possible hyperbole but there just hasn't been many QBs with Allen's skill set.  He and Lamar Jackson may turn out to be a bust but it won't be because of his physical tools.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Allen claims he only runs if his first two reads aren’t there. Pundits and skeptics claim he takes off if his first read is covered. Which is it ? I don’t think of Allen being like RG III when it comes to running. He’s got a big frame, and seems to be learning to avoid the big hit quickly. It will always be a part of his game, at least until he’s much older. 

 

....good assessment......he'll grow into reads, progressions etc over time....couldn't develop much of a rhythm in practice and pre-season working principally with the threes.......so he's doing that now......the kid is "Big Ben Big" and his mobility is pretty amazing.......remember the Tasker quote, "Jauron's speedy defense look like bugs on a windshield".....imagine one of those "bugs" seeing the 245 lb Allen barreling through their neighborhood.....uh oh.....

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Give Allen a respectable offensive line, more experience, and receivers that can quickly separate and we should be in good shape.  This season, he runs because he has to.  The balance will come when the requirements noted above are successfully addressed.

[34-78-83]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I've seen it said across a few different threads here, and from several different posters, that Allen needs to cut down on the amount that he runs the ball. I've seen a few "he's not long for this league if he does that" type comments.

I'm here to say that I completely and unequivocally disagree. He needs to learn to be more patient and let the plays develop, yes. He can naturally cut down on the amount that he NEEDS to scramble by reading the field better and going through his progressions. But even then, he should not make it a goal to limit or eliminate his scrambling. Indeed, it is precisely his otherworldly improvisatory scrambling ability that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league.

Consider this: In the Super Bowl era, Allen is the ONLY QUARTERBACK EVER to rush for 95+ yards in back-to-back games. And he did this in only the 6th and 7th games of his career. The bind that Allen puts defenses in by having such lethal running ability AND such a lethal arm is hard to overstate. If they choose not to spy him, he'll run wild. If they DO choose to spy him, he'll have extra time to find an open receiver and make the defense pay. This type of double threat is unique, rare, and is what will make Allen a successful QB in this league for a long time.

And as to the notion that he'll get hurt if he keeps running so much? I just flat out disagree. First, the argument that running QBs get injured more often is not really based on fact. Instead, most QB injuries happen IN the pocket, not outside of it. Furthermore, Allen's sheer size should lessen his injury vulnerability. Look at Cam Newton, who is very similar in size and running style. How many games has he missed due to injury in his career? 

Bottom line: Allen is dangerous BECAUSE of his running ability. It is not an overstatement to say that he is on track to be one of the best running QBs in the HISTORY of the NFL. His combination of size and speed -- combined with his passing ability -- makes him a unique and difficult player to defend. Any notion that he needs to concentrate on scrambling less or cut it out of his game is just wrong. Aside from the aforementioned natural decline in rushing attempts due to his learning to see the field better, nothing else is needed.

 

This discussion was hot for a while yesterday ....

 

 

[Big Turk]

Even when they spy him its largely ineffective because he is so much faster than the player spying him they look like are stuck in quicksand and he just pulls away from them.

 

Typically he doesnt take many hits when running because he either slides or goes out of bounds.

Edited December 3, 2018 by matter2003

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

 

You cant compare Fran Tarkenton who last played 40 years ago to anything to todays game.  Players as so much bigger today than 40 years ago, there is no way you are going to have a 165 lb QB in today's NFL survive.

 

Fran was 190 - but your statement that he couldn't survive in today's game may be true.  But Allen isn't Tark.  He weighs 55 lbs more!

 

In any case, I'm not so sure you can't make the comparison.  In Fran's time, LBs were human sledge-hammers with names like Jack Lambert and Dick Butkus.  In today's game, LBs are chosen as much for their coverage skills as their tackling skills.  The Butkus-type thumper is a thing of the past.  

 

While Tark survived in a league where most - if not all - of the LBs outweighed him.  On the Bills, Edmunds might be the only LB who outweighs Allen.  Allen is bigger than pretty much all DBs and many LBs.  

[Augie]

Running does not get you hurt. 

 

Getting hit gets you hurt. 

 

Josh is doing a MUCH better job of not getting hit. Keep that up! 

[hemma]

As long as Sirles is playing RG, better get used to Allen running.

 

He only got overpowered a couple or three times, but blitzes & stunts are definitely not his strength.

 

Even the Jets watch film and they will mess him up, I'm sure.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

This is the thing I can’t stand about the nfl when it comes to QBs that run. Do not change them. The reason it never “works” is because sooner or later, people will try and turn these guys into something they are not. Vick was incredible until coaches started trying to make him a pocket passer. The reason these guys are in the league, is because of the unique skills they posses. You wouldnt ask Brady or Peyton Manning to move off their spot and throw from outside the pocket. Do not ask Allen to not run. Do not ask this kid to be a drop back passer and read the defense. He won’t be good at it and he won’t be a good qb. Build an offense around what he does well. Don’t ask him to be something he’s not.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Brianmoorman4jesus

[Chicken Boo]

I have no problem with Allen running, for now.  Both Ben and Cam utilized their scrambling ability early in their careers until the game slowed down for them.

[row_33]

The Fish are a trash team, it was a strong game from Allen but don’t pretend this was against a D that was ready for his talent

 

 

[tcampbell104]

let allen play his game,as he gets more experience he will use his arm more

[Maynard]

As long as he runs smart, sliding and getting out of bounds, I’m all for it. I think he’s more in danger in the pocket with our online. He’s already had one injury in the pocket that kept him out 1/4th of the season. Run smart Allen! 

[RoyBatty is alive]

13 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Fran was 190 - but your statement that he couldn't survive in today's game may be true.  But Allen isn't Tark.  He weighs 55 lbs more!

 

In any case, I'm not so sure you can't make the comparison.  In Fran's time, LBs were human sledge-hammers with names like Jack Lambert and Dick Butkus.  In today's game, LBs are chosen as much for their coverage skills as their tackling skills.  The Butkus-type thumper is a thing of the past.  

 

While Tark survived in a league where most - if not all - of the LBs outweighed him.  On the Bills, Edmunds might be the only LB who outweighs Allen.  Allen is bigger than pretty much all DBs and many LBs.  

 

 

What about the D Line, the ones that get the most sacks on the QB.  I bet they weigh 50 lbs more on average than they did in tarkenton's time. It was rare, very rare to have any player of 300 lbs, now look how big they are.  I looked at the Bills '78 roster, they had one guy weighed 274.  Todays roster we have 16 guys that weigh over 300 lbs.

[Hebert19]

Hes the most pressured QB in the league.  He needs to run most times. 

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, Logic said:

I've seen it said across a few different threads here, and from several different posters, that Allen needs to cut down on the amount that he runs the ball. I've seen a few "he's not long for this league if he does that" type comments.

I'm here to say that I completely and unequivocally disagree. He needs to learn to be more patient and let the plays develop, yes. He can naturally cut down on the amount that he NEEDS to scramble by reading the field better and going through his progressions. But even then, he should not make it a goal to limit or eliminate his scrambling. Indeed, it is precisely his otherworldly improvisatory scrambling ability that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league.

Consider this: In the Super Bowl era, Allen is the ONLY QUARTERBACK EVER to rush for 95+ yards in back-to-back games. And he did this in only the 6th and 7th games of his career. The bind that Allen puts defenses in by having such lethal running ability AND such a lethal arm is hard to overstate. If they choose not to spy him, he'll run wild. If they DO choose to spy him, he'll have extra time to find an open receiver and make the defense pay. This type of double threat is unique, rare, and is what will make Allen a successful QB in this league for a long time.

And as to the notion that he'll get hurt if he keeps running so much? I just flat out disagree. First, the argument that running QBs get injured more often is not really based on fact. Instead, most QB injuries happen IN the pocket, not outside of it. Furthermore, Allen's sheer size should lessen his injury vulnerability. Look at Cam Newton, who is very similar in size and running style. How many games has he missed due to injury in his career? 

Bottom line: Allen is dangerous BECAUSE of his running ability. It is not an overstatement to say that he is on track to be one of the best running QBs in the HISTORY of the NFL. His combination of size and speed -- combined with his passing ability -- makes him a unique and difficult player to defend. Any notion that he needs to concentrate on scrambling less or cut it out of his game is just wrong. Aside from the aforementioned natural decline in rushing attempts due to his learning to see the field better, nothing else is needed.

 

 

 

Perhaps the reason most QB injuries happen in the pocket is that even running QBs spend far more time there than anywhere else. The question is whether injuries per run are more than injuries per play in the pocket. I've never seen a study on that nor do I expect to, but I think it's likely that there are more injuries per run, mitigated by plays where the QB slides or runs out of bounds. But that can't be done every time.

 

And while it's great that he rushed for 95+ in two straight games, it's something that won't mean much unless he develops his pocket passing. If he does, having the ability to run is a terrific alternative defense stressor. On a steady diet of runs, put me down among those who believe it's more dangerous. Tyrod was a terrific running QB too. But not a franchise guy. Running needs to be an optional extra.

 

Not buying that he isn't vulnerable to injury either. Plenty of Josh-sized players get injured every week. He might be a bit harder to injure, but he's not proof against them.

[HOUSE]

Yeh, well you better have a good backup because this leaping over linebackers will eventually land Josh in the hospital.

 

Its only a matter of time

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

Allen rushed 9 times yesterday

Patrick Mahomes also rushed 9 times yesterday.

 

Don't see anyone complaining or saying that Mahomes needs to run less.

 

 

The difference being Mahomes has run 51 times in 12 games this year, which is 4.25 runs per game, while Allen has 57 rushes in 9 appearance that really amount to about eight total games as he played a bit less than a half in game one and a bit more than a half against Houston before the injury. That averages out to 7.1 runs per game. 

 

That's why nobody complains that Mahomes needs to run less but they do say it about Allen.

 

Outside of this week's game where he had 9, Mahomes has had one game of 6 and nothing else more than 5. While Allen has had games of 9 and 13 rushes (the last two games) and another earlier game of 10 and another yet of 8.

 

He's tough and capable. I love it, but it's not great long-term strategy. We need to get a line in front of him, five capable guys, and he needs to work more on understanding defenses and getting it out quick.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Foxx]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The difference being Mahomes has run 51 times in 12 games this year, which is 4.25 runs per game, while Allen has 57 rushes in 9 appearance that really amount to about eight total games as he played a bit less than a half in game one and a bit more than a half against Houston before the injury. That averages out to 7.1 runs per game. 

 

That's why nobody complains that Mahomes needs to run less but they do say it about Allen.

 

Outside of this week's game where he had 9, Mahomes has had one game of 6 and nothing else more than 5. While Allen has had games of 9 and 13 rushes (the last two games) and another earlier game of 10 and another yet of 8.

 

He's tough and capable. I love it, but it's not great long-term strategy. We need to get a line in front of him, five capable guys, and he needs to work more on understanding defenses and getting it out quick.

i both agree and disagree here.

 

i think because of the skill set Josh possesses, he presents a unique problem for defenses.  has a strong arm and an equally strong run threat. what i see from the looks of the last two games and the Miami game in particular, is that Josh has absolutely no problem with passes of 20+ yards or more. this means that defenses have to respect that. drop threat out of the backfield into the flat on one side and what that does is essentially clear out the field underneath, from the D-line to the depth of the CB's.  if the receivers are covered, he has the option of hanging a 10/15 burger on them with his feet pretty easily, if not more. if they spy him then that leaves one less man to cover the receivers.

 

obviously he is still a rook and has a ways to go but he should develop both of these aspects to a greater degree and become more lethal as experience comes.

 

i am going to be real curious to see the game in NE, see what belly boy tries to contain him.

[CodeMonkey]

23 hours ago, Logic said:

I've seen it said across a few different threads here, and from several different posters, that Allen needs to cut down on the amount that he runs the ball. I've seen a few "he's not long for this league if he does that" type comments.

I'm here to say that I completely and unequivocally disagree. He needs to learn to be more patient and let the plays develop, yes. He can naturally cut down on the amount that he NEEDS to scramble by reading the field better and going through his progressions. But even then, he should not make it a goal to limit or eliminate his scrambling. Indeed, it is precisely his otherworldly improvisatory scrambling ability that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league.

Consider this: In the Super Bowl era, Allen is the ONLY QUARTERBACK EVER to rush for 95+ yards in back-to-back games. And he did this in only the 6th and 7th games of his career. The bind that Allen puts defenses in by having such lethal running ability AND such a lethal arm is hard to overstate. If they choose not to spy him, he'll run wild. If they DO choose to spy him, he'll have extra time to find an open receiver and make the defense pay. This type of double threat is unique, rare, and is what will make Allen a successful QB in this league for a long time.

And as to the notion that he'll get hurt if he keeps running so much? I just flat out disagree. First, the argument that running QBs get injured more often is not really based on fact. Instead, most QB injuries happen IN the pocket, not outside of it. Furthermore, Allen's sheer size should lessen his injury vulnerability. Look at Cam Newton, who is very similar in size and running style. How many games has he missed due to injury in his career? 

Bottom line: Allen is dangerous BECAUSE of his running ability. It is not an overstatement to say that he is on track to be one of the best running QBs in the HISTORY of the NFL. His combination of size and speed -- combined with his passing ability -- makes him a unique and difficult player to defend. Any notion that he needs to concentrate on scrambling less or cut it out of his game is just wrong. Aside from the aforementioned natural decline in rushing attempts due to his learning to see the field better, nothing else is needed.

 

I agree with you, mainly due to the fact that Allen is now running "smart".  Not trying to leapfrog defenders to make an extra yard any more, instead he slides or gets out of bounds.