Dispelling the notion that Allen needs to "stop running so much"

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Flip Johnson said:

 

Of course he's fast. It's just more than that.

 

But it IS very hard to come up with speed from the second or third level of the defense, not knowing when the QB is going to slide or give himself up, and make that play, when the guy is 245 and the refs are supposed to protect him.

 

I'm not saying he was particularly helped by yesterday's refs.

 

 

 

 

 

You said that, as for his running success yesterday, "the rule changes are a major factor".  They aren't. 

 

If you were making the argument that defenders are laying off of QBs in the pocket for fear of drawing the now dreaded "full weight of the defender" flag, I might agree.  But there is no reason to believe some rule change has affected the tackling of any QB as a runner.  In fact, after Kiko annihilated Flacco last year, he's still out there head hunting.

 

Zero impact.

[Flip Johnson]

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

Has anyone done a study on running QBs?  Do they really get hurt more or have shorter careers?

 

I'd rather see Josh Allen running than an immobile pocket QB getting pancaked behind a porous OL.

 

Allen's best attributes are his big arm and his running ability.  I think Daboll should build next year's offense around those two things.  And find a backup QB who can do the same kinds of things - just in case.  

 

Not a scientific study, but IMO the common denominator in durable QBs is more intangible - they have a great sense of where everyone is.

 

For example, a guy like Doug Flutie played into his 40s (granted, not all in the NFL) as a running QB, and seemed like he was never hit hard. He had incredible awareness of where everyone was. Russell Wilson has that today - he is running 90+ times a year most seasons and has not missed a game in his pro career.

 

RG3 did not have that. Michael Vick did not have that.

 

Some guys like Luck or Cam Newton think they're Superman - it isn't that they don't see the defender they just think they can take it. That changes as they get older.

[dakrider]

The worse QB injuries I've seen have mostly been when they were in the pocket, sometimes moving around a little bit but usually within the pocket.  
If Allen runs, he just needs to be smart about it and run out of bounds or slide or just go down.  He shouldn't have run the ball twice on 2nd and 3rd and goal the prev. week.  But a play action where he sees an opening, then go for it.  

[LeGOATski]

The injury argument is a definitely a bad one.

 

He needs to get better throwing from the pocket. That's all.

 

A by-product of that will be not running as much.

[hondo in seattle]

12 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

I think MOST people are saying he needs to cut down on the ru. I got because scrambling QBs USUALLY have a very short career because of injuries from running.   When teams get more afraid of his arm instead of his legs the better IMO for the Bills.

 

Is this really true?

When I think of scrambling QBs, the first person I think of is Fran Tarkenton who lasted 18 years in the NFL.   "The Mad Scrambler," as Tarkenton was known,  was the NFL passing yards leader in his 15th season and the NFL TD  leader in his 18th season.  In other words, his effectiveness as a QB had a long life.  

 

And Josh has a couple advantages over Tarkenton.  Josh weighs 245 lbs versus Tark's 190.   And today's rules protect QBs - even ones on the run.    

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Flip Johnson said:

 

Not a scientific study, but IMO the common denominator in durable QBs is more intangible - they have a great sense of where everyone is.

 

For example, a guy like Doug Flutie played into his 40s (granted, not all in the NFL) as a running QB, and seemed like he was never hit hard. He had incredible awareness of where everyone was. Russell Wilson has that today - he is running 90+ times a year most seasons and has not missed a game in his pro career.

 

RG3 did not have that. Michael Vick did not have that.

 

Some guys like Luck or Cam Newton think they're Superman - it isn't that they don't see the defender they just think they can take it. That changes as they get older.

 

This is a great point.  Not all running QBs are cut from the same mold.  Sometimes their style of running might make the probability of sustaining an injury far more likely. 

[Buffalo03]

I just can't figure out for the life of me why Allen didn't throw to wide a open McKenzie that was right in front of Zay on the pass that went to Zay on that 3rd and 11. He definitely would have got the first down. That made no sense to me. Looking that way you can clearly see McKenzie right in front of him

[starrymessenger]

I agree with the OP. As long as he protects himself (and he seems to be doing more of that)  I have no problem with giving him designed runs, RPOs etc... When plays or protections break down I'm fine with him scrambling and looking for opportunities to run and, as importantly, to pass (he also appears to be throwing it away better when there is no play there to be made).. His physical skillset is so impressive  that shutting him down as a runner takes away too much of what makes him effective as a threat to opposing Ds. When (if) he cleans up his throwing mechanics he's going to be scary good, a guy with a complete set of tools for destroying a defence and breaking an opponent's will. 

He will never be Drew Bree's accurate but I think the Bills braintrust see Cam Newton when they look at Josh and I think that to be the measure of improvement that is needed in Josh's passing game. We just need to hope that he doesn't become Vince Young, who was an exciting player who won his share of games with his legs when he came into the league. At least Allen already has a big step up on these guys (especially Vince) as far as his intangibles are concerned.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Is this really true?

the argument can be made ....    RGIII is the most recent example.

 

 

But with others like Vince Young, Kaepenick and others their heads get their short careers 

soooo  which do you make the correlation? 

[jrober38]

The premise is fine, but running QBs always get injured. There's just no avoiding it.

 

If Allen wants to keep rushing 10+ times a game, some LB or DB is going to take a kill shot as he slides or ducks out of bounds. It's going to happen eventually, because it happens to pretty much every QB if they give defenders enough opportunities. 

 

Allen is a threat to run. That's obvious at this point.

 

Defenses aren't going to forget he can run if he tones it down, but eventually he needs to operate more from the pocket if he wants to experience long term success. 

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

JA can flat out ball. He spun Kiko around like a top on numerous occasions. It was joyful to watch. The kid is big and strong. I love the fact that he has wheels for a body his size. He's elusive, smart, fast and learning the game.  Hopefully he continues to improve and stay healthy. I see no problem at all with the dual threat he brings to this offense. With a pro line and some weapons, we could be dangerous. 

 

And yes, no matter what happens we still need to beat NE in their house. That will end the year quite nice for the city of Buffalo. And since the Sabres are ahead of the Bruins we will finally have some bragging rights over those blowhard Boston fans.

[Ronin]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

I've seen it said across a few different threads here, and from several different posters, that Allen needs to cut down on the amount that he runs the ball. I've seen a few "he's not long for this league if he does that" type comments.

I'm here to say that I completely and unequivocally disagree. He needs to learn to be more patient and let the plays develop, yes. He can naturally cut down on the amount that he NEEDS to scramble by reading the field better and going through his progressions. But even then, he should not make it a goal to limit or eliminate his scrambling. Indeed, it is precisely his otherworldly improvisatory scrambling ability that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league.

Consider this: In the Super Bowl era, Allen is the ONLY QUARTERBACK EVER to rush for 95+ yards in back-to-back games. And he did this in only the 6th and 7th games of his career. The bind that Allen puts defenses in by having such lethal running ability AND such a lethal arm is hard to overstate. If they choose not to spy him, he'll run wild. If they DO choose to spy him, he'll have extra time to find an open receiver and make the defense pay. This type of double threat is unique, rare, and is what will make Allen a successful QB in this league for a long time.

And as to the notion that he'll get hurt if he keeps running so much? I just flat out disagree. First, the argument that running QBs get injured more often is not really based on fact. Instead, most QB injuries happen IN the pocket, not outside of it. Furthermore, Allen's sheer size should lessen his injury vulnerability. Look at Cam Newton, who is very similar in size and running style. How many games has he missed due to injury in his career? 

Bottom line: Allen is dangerous BECAUSE of his running ability. It is not an overstatement to say that he is on track to be one of the best running QBs in the HISTORY of the NFL. His combination of size and speed -- combined with his passing ability -- makes him a unique and difficult player to defend. Any notion that he needs to concentrate on scrambling less or cut it out of his game is just wrong. Aside from the aforementioned natural decline in rushing attempts due to his learning to see the field better, nothing else is needed.

 

 

A very decent post! 

 

What you failed to mention is a point that many have made and issue  with his running.  His running is fine, what 's not fine are all the head-first run-finishes.  THAT'S what's going to curtail his career, not his running.  His running is great, fantastic, makes games worth watching even by itself.  But he's gotta start protecting himself.  This "tough guy" persona that players in the NFL have sometimes costs them injuries or a fumble trying to get an extra half-yard.  You have to keep your career and the team in mind.  Allen's not going to benefit anyone if he keeps up those head-first finishes, it WILL eventually land him on IR and likely more than once if he keeps doing it, and may even truncate his career.  

 

Run away, just be smart about it.  

 

But the running aside, he's never going to rise to the level of expectations if he doesn't become a better passer.  Yes it's early, yes, there's promise too.  But there is also a whole lotta room for concern.  I mean he's not even beating out his draft peers in passsing.  That's not a good indication.  

 

Also, let's not forget that Miami and the Jets have two bottom-quartile defense, and yet, with all of his rushing we've averaged 20 points-per-game.  That's well below average.  Fortunately he's got two games remaining against them and againstt Detroit and NE's below-average defenses too.  So these forthcoming games should be good games for him to progress.  

[Domdab99]

Allen rushed 9 times yesterday

Patrick Mahomes also rushed 9 times yesterday.

 

Don't see anyone complaining or saying that Mahomes needs to run less.

[RoyBatty is alive]

22 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Is this really true?

When I think of scrambling QBs, the first person I think of is Fran Tarkenton who lasted 18 years in the NFL.   "The Mad Scrambler," as Tarkenton was known,  was the NFL passing yards leader in his 15th season and the NFL TD  leader in his 18th season.  In other words, his effectiveness as a QB had a long life.  

 

And Josh has a couple advantages over Tarkenton.  Josh weighs 245 lbs versus Tark's 190.   And today's rules protect QBs - even ones on the run.    

 

 

 

 

 

This is a great point.  Not all running QBs are cut from the same mold.  Sometimes their style of running might make the probability of sustaining an injury far more likely. 

 

 

You cant compare Fran Tarkenton who last played 40 years ago to anything to todays game.  Players as so much bigger today than 40 years ago, there is no way you are going to have a 165 lb QB in today's NFL survive.

[Domdab99]

4 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

I just can't figure out for the life of me why Allen didn't throw to wide a open McKenzie that was right in front of Zay on the pass that went to Zay on that 3rd and 11. He definitely would have got the first down. That made no sense to me. Looking that way you can clearly see McKenzie right in front of him

 

1. I rewatched that play - it did not look like McK would've gotten the first down.

2. Allen made an amazing throw to Zay that he couldn't come down with:

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Domdab99

[Logic]

16 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

I just can't figure out for the life of me why Allen didn't throw to wide a open McKenzie that was right in front of Zay on the pass that went to Zay on that 3rd and 11. He definitely would have got the first down. That made no sense to me. Looking that way you can clearly see McKenzie right in front of him

Cover 1 on Twitter showed a snapshot that captures the moment McKenzie breaks open toward the sideline. Allen already cocked his arm back and the ball is about to leave his fingertips. Furthermore....Zay should've caught that ball.

[BuffaloHokie13]

3 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

Allen rushed 9 times yesterday

Patrick Mahomes also rushed 9 times yesterday.

 

Don't see anyone complaining or saying that Mahomes needs to run less.

Mahomes runs on 10.2% of his attempts.

Allen runs on 21.03% of his attempts.

Lamar Jackson runs on 50% of his attempts.

Cam Newton runs on 17.67% of his attempts.

[BuffaLoko]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

I've seen it said across a few different threads here, and from several different posters, that Allen needs to cut down on the amount that he runs the ball. I've seen a few "he's not long for this league if he does that" type comments.

I'm here to say that I completely and unequivocally disagree. He needs to learn to be more patient and let the plays develop, yes. He can naturally cut down on the amount that he NEEDS to scramble by reading the field better and going through his progressions. But even then, he should not make it a goal to limit or eliminate his scrambling. Indeed, it is precisely his otherworldly improvisatory scrambling ability that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league.

Consider this: In the Super Bowl era, Allen is the ONLY QUARTERBACK EVER to rush for 95+ yards in back-to-back games. And he did this in only the 6th and 7th games of his career. The bind that Allen puts defenses in by having such lethal running ability AND such a lethal arm is hard to overstate. If they choose not to spy him, he'll run wild. If they DO choose to spy him, he'll have extra time to find an open receiver and make the defense pay. This type of double threat is unique, rare, and is what will make Allen a successful QB in this league for a long time.

And as to the notion that he'll get hurt if he keeps running so much? I just flat out disagree. First, the argument that running QBs get injured more often is not really based on fact. Instead, most QB injuries happen IN the pocket, not outside of it. Furthermore, Allen's sheer size should lessen his injury vulnerability. Look at Cam Newton, who is very similar in size and running style. How many games has he missed due to injury in his career? 

Bottom line: Allen is dangerous BECAUSE of his running ability. It is not an overstatement to say that he is on track to be one of the best running QBs in the HISTORY of the NFL. His combination of size and speed -- combined with his passing ability -- makes him a unique and difficult player to defend. Any notion that he needs to concentrate on scrambling less or cut it out of his game is just wrong. Aside from the aforementioned natural decline in rushing attempts due to his learning to see the field better, nothing else is needed.

 

We are dealing with many encountered notions, I find myself struggling to think we can have a QB that is a better runner than Mike Vick or Cam Newton, guys that since they were coming to the league, were considered generational level QBs with great wheels, but in Josh´s case, what amazes me it is not only about his skills challenging tacklers, is the elusiveness he shows and how the defenders look continually frozen when he launches!! 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

Want him to slide more and I was encouraged when he decided to slide a few times yesterday. This is a weapon of his I don't want to curtail. I'm more concerned about his lack of just dumping it off. He'd rather go for the big play every time then dump it off and get a 4 yard gain here and there. 

 

It's kinda awesome because I hate the dink and dunk the league has reverted too but sometimes I just want him to manage his 1st and 2nd downs better. I'm hoping this comes with more experience. His completion pct will sky rocket if he does.

[ThunderGun]

The dude is an absolute beast who will run by you, through you, or he will just jump over you all together... this isn’t some scrawny Mike Vick, Rg3, Tyrod style mobile QB, he’s like Cam but with a better head in his shoulders.

 

Besides, analysts who criticize that he can’t sustain running so much clearly weren’t watch the game as he avoided hits frequently by running out of bounds and sliding.

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I've seen it said across a few different threads here, and from several different posters, that Allen needs to cut down on the amount that he runs the ball. I've seen a few "he's not long for this league if he does that" type comments.

I'm here to say that I completely and unequivocally disagree. He needs to learn to be more patient and let the plays develop, yes. He can naturally cut down on the amount that he NEEDS to scramble by reading the field better and going through his progressions. But even then, he should not make it a goal to limit or eliminate his scrambling. Indeed, it is precisely his otherworldly improvisatory scrambling ability that sets him apart from most other QBs in the league.

Consider this: In the Super Bowl era, Allen is the ONLY QUARTERBACK EVER to rush for 95+ yards in back-to-back games. And he did this in only the 6th and 7th games of his career. The bind that Allen puts defenses in by having such lethal running ability AND such a lethal arm is hard to overstate. If they choose not to spy him, he'll run wild. If they DO choose to spy him, he'll have extra time to find an open receiver and make the defense pay. This type of double threat is unique, rare, and is what will make Allen a successful QB in this league for a long time.

And as to the notion that he'll get hurt if he keeps running so much? I just flat out disagree. First, the argument that running QBs get injured more often is not really based on fact. Instead, most QB injuries happen IN the pocket, not outside of it. Furthermore, Allen's sheer size should lessen his injury vulnerability. Look at Cam Newton, who is very similar in size and running style. How many games has he missed due to injury in his career? 

Bottom line: Allen is dangerous BECAUSE of his running ability. It is not an overstatement to say that he is on track to be one of the best running QBs in the HISTORY of the NFL. His combination of size and speed -- combined with his passing ability -- makes him a unique and difficult player to defend. Any notion that he needs to concentrate on scrambling less or cut it out of his game is just wrong. Aside from the aforementioned natural decline in rushing attempts due to his learning to see the field better, nothing else is needed.

 

I was more happy this week with THE WAY he was running.....he was sliding instead of taking a hit....running out of bounds.....etc

 

Last week he got bent over in a very dangerous way on a run by a defensive player close to the goal line.......Those HAVE to stop