How much does the reveal that missed Zay Jones in endzone pass affect your inaccuracy POV?

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I'm just curious. It doesn't matter to you to learn that it wasn't a missed pass by Josh when it appeared to be?

It's a TD though. Those matter. It was four points. We lost by four points.

No. I don’t expect perfection. Josh was mostly on point today. One throw doesn’t change that.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I referenced that but he was being diplomatic. If you think about what he said, he inferred that he should have known Zay was going to not do what the play called for. In his PC, McD inferred that Zay was supposed to sit.

 

 

 

McDermott defends Allen a lot. Even on the interception, which I thought was Allen's worst throw of the game, this is what he said:

 

 

He's basically giving Benjamin as much of the blame as Allen for that interception. Whatever the fans think this regime is all in on Allen and they're going to overhaul his supporting cast in the offseason.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I referenced that but he was being diplomatic. If you think about what he said, he inferred that he should have known Zay was going to not do what the play called for. In his PC, McD inferred that Zay was supposed to sit.

 

 

 He absolutely did the right thing and took the blame even though it may have been Zays fault. He didn't throw any of his players under the bus like Ben did with AB. This goes a very long way showing leadership and your fellow players will play that much harder behind you. This kid is going to be special. 

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

No. I don’t expect perfection. Josh was mostly on point today. One throw doesn’t change that.

But that is not at all the point of all this. No one expects perfection. There seems to be two schools of thought on this board and all across the NFL. Josh Allen has a ton of talent, he is either going to be a franchise guy OR his inaccuracy will keep him from being a franchise guy. There really doesn't seem to be any other choice.

 

Watching that play made me worry slightly more that he really may have an issue. He had all day, he looked right at the WR, it was 3rd and 6, and it was an easy TD. And he missed it by two yards. An easy throw. You're absolutely right that one play is not going to change yours or anyone's opinion on whether or not he will be the man.

 

But to me, I was thinking, *****! He's got to make that throw. That is the one thing that will keep him from being great. And later on I learn that it was a perfect throw not a horrible one. So my worry, which is ongoing and fluid, was significantly lessened. Those are touchdowns. Those arent regular nominal plays. Those plays need to be made.

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

McDermott defends Allen a lot. Even on the interception, which I thought was Allen's worst throw of the game, this is what he said:

 

 

He's basically giving Benjamin as much of the blame as Allen for that interception. Whatever the fans think this regime is all in on Allen and they're going to overhaul his supporting cast in the offseason.

I agree with that. I very much doubt, however, if Zay did exactly what he was supposed to, run to the middle of the endzone, that he would infer Zay blew the play and not Josh. That would be just making something up out of whole cloth and Zay would hate him for it. Not to mention that Zay said the same thing as McD.

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

But that is not at all the point of all this. No one expects perfection. There seems to be two schools of thought on this board and all across the NFL. Josh Allen has a ton of talent, he is either going to be a franchise guy OR his inaccuracy will keep him from being a franchise guy. There really doesn't seem to be any other choice.

 

Watching that play made me worry slightly more that he really may have an issue. He had all day, he looked right at the WR, it was 3rd and 6, and it was an easy TD. And he missed it by two yards. An easy throw. You're absolutely right that one play is not going to change yours or anyone's opinion on whether or not he will be the man.

 

But to me, I was thinking, *****! He's got to make that throw. That is the one thing that will keep him from being great. And later on I learn that it was a perfect throw not a horrible one. So my worry, which is ongoing and fluid, was significantly lessened. Those are touchdowns. Those arent regular nominal plays. Those plays need to be made.

I actually disagree with both of those schools of thought. 

 

My comp for Allen has been Cam Newton. Cam is not accurate. At least, he’s not accurate in the way Brady, Brees and Rodgers are. There’s a reason the Panthers surrounded him with wide catching radius bodies at WR. But Cam’s still an MVP. He’s still a franchise QB. Just a different one.

 

Josh needs to work on his touch on swing passes. On his timing with deep passes. On going through his reads.  But lots of young QBs have things to work on.

 

I’ve said this for weeks now. If you think Allen will ever be surgical in the way Brady is, you may be waiting a long time. But you don’t need surgical accuracy to be better a franchise QB.

 

I wish he hit that pass, but it wasn’t keeping me up at night.

Edited December 3, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

But that is not at all the point of all this. No one expects perfection. There seems to be two schools of thought on this board and all across the NFL. Josh Allen has a ton of talent, he is either going to be a franchise guy OR his inaccuracy will keep him from being a franchise guy. There really doesn't seem to be any other choice.

 

Watching that play made me worry slightly more that he really may have an issue. He had all day, he looked right at the WR, it was 3rd and 6, and it was an easy TD. And he missed it by two yards. An easy throw. You're absolutely right that one play is not going to change yours or anyone's opinion on whether or not he will be the man.

 

But to me, I was thinking, *****! He's got to make that throw. That is the one thing that will keep him from being great. And later on I learn that it was a perfect throw not a horrible one. So my worry, which is ongoing and fluid, was significantly lessened. Those are touchdowns. Those arent regular nominal plays. Those plays need to be made.

When I saw it I worried/confused it did look bad but he's usually pretty accurate with those. The ones like that, that I remember him missing were that laser to Benjamin that went through his hands at the beginning of the season.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

I actually disagree with both of those schools of thought. 

 

My comp for Allen has been Cam Newton. Cam is not accurate. At least, he’s not accurate in the way Brady, Brees and Rodgers are. There’s a reason the Panthers surrounded him with wide catching radius bodies at WR. But Cam’s still an MVP. He’s still a franchise QB. Just a different one.

 

Josh needs to work on his touch on swing passes. On his timing with deep passes. On going through his reads.  But lots of young QBs have things to work on.

 

I’ve said this for weeks now. If you think Allen will ever be surgical in the way Brady is, you may be waiting a long time. But you don’t need surgical accuracy to be a franchise QB.

I agree with all of that. I guess my point is the "accuracy" issue is going to be found in those swing passes and deep balls you mentioned. I don't think anyone anywhere expects him to be a surgical passer. I don't think he has a huge accuracy problem myself, but a lot do.

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

There was no one on him. I agree that maybe a year or two from now both guys will know what the other will do. But Zay was wide open on the sit, too.

 

Ill need to go back and look at the play. I’ll trust your eye on that one Kelly. But, just because he’s open doesn’t make it the right read or decision.

 

It is man, cover zero. If the QB picks that up in the pre snap read, there is no way to expect him to ever sit on a route. It’s a miscommunication for sure. That’s fine it happens. There just seems to a lot of finger pointing on this one. If you’re a WR, and you realize you’re in man, you’re not sitting in a soft spot. You’re going to keep moving. You have to. 

 

It is a blown coverage from the defense. The right decision from Zay. Wrong pre snap read, and too late to see it from Allen. Allen may have thought Zay should sit, but that’s the wrong decision. 

 

Also not to pile on. This play is a good example of Allen’s biggest weekness today. He was late on a TON of throws. He’s not seeing things quick enough. People asking him to find the outlet quicker, aren’t necassarily asking for him to look underneath more. He needs to see it and throw it immediately. 

 

He is a lot of fun to watch play the position. But he also has a ton to learn about it. Really hope he gets there because I like watching the dude play 

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

I’ve said this for weeks now. If you think Allen will ever be surgical in the way Brady is, you may be waiting a long time. But you don’t need surgical accuracy to be better a franchise QB.

 

Exactly. He will never be Tom Brady. Neither were Favre or Elway. I don't expect a 65% completion percentage but the whole field is open when he has the ball in his hands. He can throw it anywhere or he can run right through the defense. That versatility is just as valuable as pinpoint accuracy. You can still score points with his skill set, it just looks different.

[Helpmenow]

There was a fan base, bad ownership

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

I agree with all of that. I guess my point is the "accuracy" issue is going to be found in those swing passes and deep balls you mentioned. I don't think anyone anywhere expects him to be a surgical passer. I don't think he has a huge accuracy problem myself, but a lot do.

Well that’s the thing. Since he missed that swing pass in Houston, I don’t think he’s missed it since. He guns the ball more appropriately now than he did week 2. 

 

I expect we’ll see more misfires. Some at critical moments. Some years Josh Allen will put up 25/17 TD/INT. Some years he’ll put up 38/12.  He’s gonna be a streaky dude.

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Ill need to go back and look at the play. I’ll trust your eye on that one Kelly. But, just because he’s open doesn’t make it the right read or decision.

 

It is man, cover zero. If the QB picks that up in the pre snap read, there is no way to expect him to ever sit on a route. It’s a miscommunication for sure. That’s fine it happens. There just seems to a lot of finger pointing on this one. If you’re a WR, and you realize you’re in man, you’re not sitting in a soft spot. You’re going to keep moving. You have to. 

 

It is a blown coverage from the defense. The right decision from Zay. Wrong pre snap read, and too late to see it from Allen. Allen may have thought Zay should sit, but that’s the wrong decision. 

 

Also not to pile on. This play is a good example of Allen’s biggest weekness today. He was late on a TON of throws. He’s not seeing things quick enough. People asking him to find the outlet quicker, aren’t necassarily asking for him to look underneath more. He needs to see it and throw it immediately. 

 

He is a lot of fun to watch play the position. But he also has a ton to learn about it. Really hope he gets there because I like watching the dude play 

Good post. I'd love to know the real issue on that play but again, to me, it wasn't really a "read" play. Neither Zay nor Josh nor McD intimated that Josh made the wrong pre or post snap read. It was more of a situation that the middle of the endzone was completely abandoned so Zay kept running to it. Josh saw him wide open behind him too and they haven't played enough together to know that Zay will break off the route. It wasn't a zone versus man read play to me, although so many are. The Dolphins completely blew the coverage. Josh probably thought this is just an easy score.

 

I was always a proponent of playing him right away all season, regardless of the lumps he will take, and precisely because of your accurate criticism. I think it's almost impossible to learn that stuff on the sidelines and through film. You need experience, especially a guy like him. Next year he will be way ahead of the game because he played this year, IMO.

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Exactly. He will never be Tom Brady. Neither were Favre or Elway. I don't expect a 65% completion percentage but the whole field is open when he has the ball in his hands. He can throw it anywhere or he can run right through the defense. That versatility is just as valuable as pinpoint accuracy. You can still score points with his skill set, it just looks different.

But who ever thought he would be?

[WideNine]

3 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I assume most everyone had the same reaction that I did after the play and even the replay. Terrible pass. Josh just missed a wide open Jones in the end zone. He's GOT to make that pass. He missed a couple others in the game and he had a bunch of really solid if not great throws. But the "inaccuracy" tag put on him still haunts him, and he does miss some balls that he needs to hit.

 

But...

 

When I heard from McD, Zay and Josh about what actually happened on that play, it wasn't an inaccurate pass it was a perfect pass. Zay was expected to sit on the route, and that is where Josh threw it. Josh was being diplomatic in his interview, saying that he should have known Zay was going to continue instead of sitting because there was so much open endzone but it is clear that it was not at all an inaccurate pass, it went exactly where he wanted it.

 

To me, that knowledge, has a big affect on the overall game Josh had in my perception. I thought he had a very good game overall but missed several throws. The fact that the biggest misfire was not a misfire, and would have been his third TD to Jones makes a substantial difference in my grading of the game.

 

A lot of times we as fans don't know this kind of stuff, and our evaluations and biases suffer because of it. 

 

Don't think it would matter to me that he misses on a few, just looking for a rookie with a lot of raw talent to show improvement each week. He started slow and did not get into any kind of a rhythm till he had a few scrambles under his belt IMO.

 

He got this team the lead with 5 and change left on the clock and our defense went soft, then got a huge DPI call on Milano, then a really stupid selfish penalty on Phillips (the way the refs were calling the game he should have known better), which put Miami in position for the go ahead score.

 

Even after that Josh used his feet and some great throws, a soft touch on a screen to Shady, and worked hard to march his team down the field despite losing ground with holding calls and a false start on Dawkins to get one last shot at the end zone. He puts in an insane effort to keep the 4th down play alive and hits Clay in the hands and it was dropped on the turf.

 

Would I judge the kid on a few missed throws, or because there was a miscommunication, I just don't think that is how you judge a rookie QB's progress. I am just looking to see if he made a throw that he missed the week before, does he get rid of it rather than take a 15 yard sack like he did earlier in the year, is he keeping his eyes down field when he breaks out of the pocket and hit some of those throws, is he reading defenses a bit better and throwing it a bit sooner.

Edited December 3, 2018 by WideNine

[Spiderweb]

12 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

Allen miraculously escaped a sack on that final fatal play, perfect throw, no but wide open receivers simply have to make a play for their QB in this case. Clay as usual, came up small again.

[CSBill]

12 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

It doesn’t because every QB misses throws. If you’re hanging your hat on one throw like “see!!!!” your evaluation opinion is probably terrible anyway.

 

Ben R missed someone even more wide in the Steeler's game last evening, it happens to every QB--well, maybe not Brady?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

12 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

He threw it where he wanted it to go. Miscommunication aside, it's not inaccurate if it went where he intended.... right?

 

Solid point.  I think about that stuff all the time- passes that look inaccurate because of miscommunications.  

 

Also, if Allen put the incompletion on Zay, I would have been furious.  Team guys always put the failure on themselves.  Saying he should have thrown a different pass doesn't mean he believes that, it just means he is being a leader. 

[Hebert19]

It's not inaccuracies at all.  He just threw to a spot instead of leading him.  

[buffaloboyinATL]

12 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Allen said in post game that Zay was right to keep running against cover 0 with it being his fault. Either way they weren't on the same page. 

I respect him for not throwing his receiver under the bus like Big Ben dis last week.

6 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

It's not inaccuracies at all.  He just threw to a spot instead of leading him.  

This.

[SDS]

13 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I'm just curious. It doesn't matter to you to learn that it wasn't a missed pass by Josh when it appeared to be?

It's a TD though. Those matter. It was four points. We lost by four points.

 

Ugh. Probably my biggest pet peeve in fan talk. "Let's change one play in the first half and pretend the rest of the game plays out exactly if that critical play didn't change the whole complexion of the game."

 

Which is just the baby brother of, "Let's change 3-5 plays at various points in the game - all in our favor - and pretend everything that happens in between all those critical play reversals doesn't change."

[Royale with Cheese]

11 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

I actually disagree with both of those schools of thought. 

 

My comp for Allen has been Cam Newton. Cam is not accurate. At least, he’s not accurate in the way Brady, Brees and Rodgers are. There’s a reason the Panthers surrounded him with wide catching radius bodies at WR. But Cam’s still an MVP. He’s still a franchise QB. Just a different one.

 

Josh needs to work on his touch on swing passes. On his timing with deep passes. On going through his reads.  But lots of young QBs have things to work on.

 

I’ve said this for weeks now. If you think Allen will ever be surgical in the way Brady is, you may be waiting a long time. But you don’t need surgical accuracy to be better a franchise QB.

 

I wish he hit that pass, but it wasn’t keeping me up at night.

I really like this post and agree with it.

 

Brady is Greg Maddux.  Surgical precision on most throws.

 

Allen hopefully can be a Verlander.  Powerful arm and gets wild here and there.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Royale with Cheese