McDermott’s conservative garbage

[HomeskillitMoorman]

17 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Conservative? Like going for a Hail Mary instead of a long FG?

 

I honestly didn't have a problem with either going for the Hail Mary or long FG there because it's kind of no-man's land. I didn't feel like there was necessarily a "right" call there. The Hail Mary didn't work but whatever, I'm not getting on him for that.

 

It's what led up to that. Not even counting the butchering on the other side when McDermott didn't call the timeouts that was the reason we ran out of time...it's that he was completely indecisive when we got to the 41 and had to burn a timeout because he didn't know what he wanted to do. That 5 seconds was enough time to run a quick play and call a timeout. If we grab a few yards, we can go for the FG. If not, you can still attempt that Hail Mary. 

 

The problem here isn't the outcome, it's that McDermott didn't optimize what he had to give the team the best opportunity. And that's a big part of his job. And he's terrible at it. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

5 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

This point was brought up in the post-game radio show with Schopp & The Bulldog.

Perhaps that was you calling in?

 

The answer as to why we do this is what Schopp said: it's the way McDermott wants to play football.  He wants to slow the game down to a crawl, shorten it, play tight defense, and win every game 10-7.

 

I am of the opinion that this philosophy absolutely does not work in the NFL in 2018.  We are possibly THE MOST conservative/cautious team left in the league at this point.  Not good, if you're a Bills fan.

 

I couldn't agree with you more; we threw away that possession at the end of the half and that is losing football.  Which makes sense, given that we lost.

 

McDermott's penalty flag challenge was also bad, as almost ALL of his challenges have been since he arrived here.  We clearly do not have a competent system in place to ensure proper challenges and eliminate poor challenges.

 

It's another sign of bad coaching/lack of organization.

 

 

 

 

Yup, agree with all of it. I haven't really even gotten to the challenges. He is horrific with them, and you're right, the system in place is on him. 

 

I keep seeing excuses made for him, like "the OC wasn't getting the calls in quick enough" or "he's told from someone upstairs whether to challenge or not"...but these are all part of the systems and people he has in place. That's all part of being a head coach and why it's a big job. It's all on him. 

[MarkAF43]

1 hour ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I can't agree that it's based on how the team is going because there's been a pattern of this going back to last year. The being a new coach thing was an excuse for him last year, one I don't really agree with. That's all about preparation and strategic thinking. But even if you did want to give him that, it's year 2 now. There's no way those should just be mistakes. I think it's more of his conservative nature, and I actually think that's less insulting to him. If it's literally that he's a "new coach" in year 2 and can't process a situation or what he wants to do fast enough...I think we have even bigger problems. I just don't like the conservative nature.

 

Haha, no, I'm out of state and have never really listened to WGR. I tried it out a couple of times but just kind of found it boring. I listen to stuff on the Ringer the most often. 

 

 

I only ask because literally someone called them after the game and had many of the same points you did.  

[Rochesterfan]

31 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

Different Scenarios:

 

1. Bills were losing in the game and were about to be down either 4 or 8. (It ended up being 8.) Where NE was up 10-0

2. The field position. Miami was inside the 10 where Minnesota was just on the fringe of the redzone. That is a huge difference as Miami can literally control the clock however they want, where Minnesota still obviously still needs to move at a quicker pace and can't let the clock bleed down on every play. If Minnesota was inside the 10 and they were running the ball with 1:00 left, I can almost guarantee the Pats would call a TO even with that 10-0 lead.

 

 

 

 

Ok so I have 2 points:

 

1.  You are saying it is ok for Belichek not to use time outs and be conservative there because they were up by 10 (3 after the TD) with Minnesota getting the ball to start the second half and Belicheck having one of the greatest if not the greatest QBs of all time.  McDermott though is supposed to be aggressive with a rookie QB and a bad offense in a 1 score game getting the ball to start the second half.  Not sure I agree with that, but ok - seems a bit backwards - I would think Belichek with Brady would be the more aggressive one.

 

2. Then let’s take a trip back a couple of weeks and see how NE handles a drive by Tennessee losing by 7 late in the second half.  Low and behold NE allowed the Titans to move down the field and use 3:30 minutes to the 2 minute warning without using any timeouts.  NE had 2 timeouts just like Buffalo.  At the 2 minute warning it was 3rd and 2 and the Titans get a first down to the 2 yard line, but Belichek did not take a time out there.  NE stops the first and goal run from the 2 and takes their first timeout after 40+ seconds ran off the clock.  Belichek then used his timeout and the Titans scored with 1:09 left.  

 

NE got a touchback so with the greatest QB of all time - they got to start at the 25 with 1:08 and a timeout.  Funny they got to the Titan 43 with 2 seconds left - did not kick a FG and Brady got sacked on the Hail Mary.

 

The 2 set-ups were nearly identical- The Bills took a second timeout at the exact same play and time as Belicheck in his game.  The biggest difference is Buffalo started at the 10 rather than the 25 and had about 15 seconds less, but Josh got them further than Brady and got off the Hail Mary pass.

 

Overall - could McDermott have done better - Yes of course, but the fact is he treated it exactly like KC did in their game and NE in their game - calling a timeout when the open is in goal to goal and they have limited number of plays left to control the clock.  Coaches also tend to like to keep 1 timeout on offense which is why both NE and Buffalo waited - so they could keep that 1 timeout in case of a sack or other issue when they get the ball back.

 

I think there is a lot to digest, but I don’t think McDermott was much different than about 99% of the other coaches and played it more aggressive when he could and tighter with the initial field position.

 

That is my opinion of course, but it seems to match what other coaches have done - including Belichek with Brady. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

5 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Total Hot take and not even correctly written as to what happened - at least get the story correct before you complain.

 

The Bills used their second time-out after stopping the Dolphins on first and goal inside the 10.  Just exactly like the KC Chiefs did in their game.  They were the only 2 games in which a defense called a timeout with the other team driving late in the first half that I saw.  So they used the same strategy as the only other team I saw utilize a timeout on defense.  So oops - wrong #1 in the take.

 

Next paragraph - we did not run 3 straight times before passing.  Let’s look at the facts - after the penalty on the kickoff the Bills are starting on their own 10 yard line.  Most teams then have to decide do we go or do we slow play the drive.  On their own 10 within 1 score and getting the ball to start the second half - the Bills played it like the majority of teams and ran on first down.  The worst thing they could do is go 3 and out without taking any time and punt from deep in their end and give up the last second FG.  They ran again forcing Miami to use timeouts both times and run some time.  3rd down they passed for a first down and got out of bounds.  So 2 runs then a pass. Forcing Miami to use 2 time-outs to help prevent a Dolphins drive and getting the first down.

 

On 1st and ten they then get a false start and go back to essentially their own 20 and 1st and 15.  Now they just want to run the clock out - so a quick handoff to Shady, but he breaks it for 18 and goes out of bounds - now they are in legit scoring position to start to attack.  A beautiful completion to the 41 gives them a legitimate chance with 9 seconds left.

 

Here is where the criticism can come in - they did not seem to know if they wanted 1 short play to get the FG maybe a run or short pass or how they wanted to go forward and they waste their final timeout.  At that point I have to assume 58 yards was pushing his range - especially as we saw at the end of the game the 55 yard miss did not have 3 more yards - so 58 was not really an option.  After wasting the timeout - that left the Hail Mary as the sole option.

 

The real criticism is not being ready after the completion to the 41.  A 5 or 10 yard completion over the middle and a timeout makes the FG a legit threat.  Other than that he played it exactly like most coaches would have given how the game had played out, time-out situation, and field position.

 

Right now I think McDermott struggles because he has a young “gunslinger” QB that makes a ton of plays, but makes a ton of mistakes.  He half plays things to prevent a costly mistake, but try to score.  I see him getting more aggressive as the offense grows.

 

 

It's not a hot take at all, competent coaches optimize their team's opportunities. He didn't right there. As I've said, I'm not assuming we score with more time and I wouldn't have blamed McDermott if we had turned it over with more time and more plays to run. That's part of the game if that happens, but you have to give your team that opportunity.

 

McDermott sat on his timeouts when the Dolphins got inside the 10, he let a bunch of time go off the clock before the Dolphins ran that play and finally called the timeout with around 45 seconds or something left. There was no reason to do that. They're already inside the 10 with like a minute and a half and had all 3 of their own timeouts, they weren't in any kind of time crunch and we weren't helping them by calling timeouts. They could have called their own if they needed more time on anything. There is no disadvantage whatsoever to use your timeouts in that position. I'm all ears if you come up with anything.

 

If you want to say the runs at the beginning of the last drive were to make the Dolphins burn their timeouts...I disagree with the strategic view behind that but I can at least see the logic. I don't like being that conservative but there is some kind of rationale that you can fall back on there, which you can't for not taking the timeout when the Dolphins got inside our 10. 

 

As for the FG vs Hail Mary...I really didn't have a problem with that call either way, but I don't like your logic behind it. It's not because he missed a 55 yarder later in the game. He also missed an extra point, does that mean a 40 yard FG would've been out of the question there too? But it's a long field goal, no real issue for me with the Hail Mary after the timeout.

 

But yes, totally agree on the timeout. That was all because of indecisiveness. That's what McDermott struggles from. He's not prepared. His coordinators are not prepared. There are times when his bad management comes from his incredibly conservative nature, but sometimes it is because he just flat out doesn't know what to do. This is a big problem. It wasted a precious down. If we run a play with the timeout the way we should have, we likely still have the same two options if it's incomplete, or possibly a shorter FG if we make a quick play for a few yards. 

 

It's just inexcusably bad game management. 

[BillsFan130]

10 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Ok so I have 2 points:

 

1.  You are saying it is ok for Belichek not to use time outs and be conservative there because they were up by 10 (3 after the TD) with Minnesota getting the ball to start the second half and Belicheck having one of the greatest if not the greatest QBs of all time.  McDermott though is supposed to be aggressive with a rookie QB and a bad offense in a 1 score game getting the ball to start the second half.  Not sure I agree with that, but ok - seems a bit backwards - I would think Belichek with Brady would be the more aggressive one.

 

2. Then let’s take a trip back a couple of weeks and see how NE handles a drive by Tennessee losing by 7 late in the second half.  Low and behold NE allowed the Titans to move down the field and use 3:30 minutes to the 2 minute warning without using any timeouts.  NE had 2 timeouts just like Buffalo.  At the 2 minute warning it was 3rd and 2 and the Titans get a first down to the 2 yard line, but Belichek did not take a time out there.  NE stops the first and goal run from the 2 and takes their first timeout after 40+ seconds ran off the clock.  Belichek then used his timeout and the Titans scored with 1:09 left.  

 

NE got a touchback so with the greatest QB of all time - they got to start at the 25 with 1:08 and a timeout.  Funny they got to the Titan 43 with 2 seconds left - did not kick a FG and Brady got sacked on the Hail Mary.

 

The 2 set-ups were nearly identical- The Bills took a second timeout at the exact same play and time as Belicheck in his game.  The biggest difference is Buffalo started at the 10 rather than the 25 and had about 15 seconds less, but Josh got them further than Brady and got off the Hail Mary pass.

 

Overall - could McDermott have done better - Yes of course, but the fact is he treated it exactly like KC did in their game and NE in their game - calling a timeout when the open is in goal to goal and they have limited number of plays left to control the clock.  Coaches also tend to like to keep 1 timeout on offense which is why both NE and Buffalo waited - so they could keep that 1 timeout in case of a sack or other issue when they get the ball back.

 

I think there is a lot to digest, but I don’t think McDermott was much different than about 99% of the other coaches and played it more aggressive when he could and tighter with the initial field position.

 

That is my opinion of course, but it seems to match what other coaches have done - including Belichek with Brady. 

I don’t remember the titan game so can’t comment on it.

 

NE got the ball to start the 2nd half though. It was a very quick 3 and out.

 

And I watch football every Thursday/Sunday/Monday and  I always see coaches call timeouts late in the first half to get the offence another chance. I can’t give a specific example because it’s such a common theme and nothing stood out of the ordinary by using the timeouts.

 

Regardless it was very conservative by Mcd and it most likely cost them a crucial 3 points in a very tight ball game

Edited December 3, 2018 by billsfan11

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, billsfan11 said:

I don’t remember the titan game so can’t comment on it.

 

NE got the ball to start the 2nd half though. It was a very quick 3 and out.

 

And I watch football every Thursday/Sunday/Monday and  I always see coaches call timeouts late in the first half to get the offence another chance. I can’t give a specific example because it’s such a common theme and nothing stood out of the ordinary by using the timeouts.

 

Regardless it was very conservative by Mcd and it most likely cost them a crucial 3 points in a very tight ball game

 

I to watch a lot of games and I see defensive reams call timeouts to get the ball back to the offense just like the Bills did.  Typically the defense will use one or two timeouts- almost always leaving the offense with one timeout.  

 

I gave ave you two examples in KC and NE from similar situations where both used timeouts just like Buffalo did leaving the offense with one timeout even though in all of those games it allowed the opposing offense to run off one set of 30 seconds - having the timeout on offense is critical because it opens the whole field and forces different coverages than if you have no timeouts.  

 

It also allows the offense to run different concepts allowing you to work to scheme a guy open for a 20 yard gain just like Buffalo did.

 

What cost them the 3 points was having to blow the timeout after the big completion not the fact that they did not call it while on defense and I showed that with using NE and everyone’s gold star coach in Belichek that played it exactly the same as Buffalo right down to missing on the Hail Mary against Tennessee.

 

I know it is hard to accept that maybe - just maybe- McDermott played it consistent with many other coaches both offense like Reid and Defensive like Belichek.  Maybe he is watching and learning what they do and using similar concepts.

[BillsFan130]

5 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I to watch a lot of games and I see defensive reams call timeouts to get the ball back to the offense just like the Bills did.  Typically the defense will use one or two timeouts- almost always leaving the offense with one timeout.  

 

I gave ave you two examples in KC and NE from similar situations where both used timeouts just like Buffalo did leaving the offense with one timeout even though in all of those games it allowed the opposing offense to run off one set of 30 seconds - having the timeout on offense is critical because it opens the whole field and forces different coverages than if you have no timeouts.  

 

It also allows the offense to run different concepts allowing you to work to scheme a guy open for a 20 yard gain just like Buffalo did.

 

What cost them the 3 points was having to blow the timeout after the big completion not the fact that they did not call it while on defense and I showed that with using NE and everyone’s gold star coach in Belichek that played it exactly the same as Buffalo right down to missing on the Hail Mary against Tennessee.

 

I know it is hard to accept that maybe - just maybe- McDermott played it consistent with many other coaches both offense like Reid and Defensive like Belichek.  Maybe he is watching and learning what they do and using similar concepts.

I don't know the scenarios in the game so I can't comment on the other ones. The example you gave me with the Pats yesterday though was a completely different scenario from the Bills dolphins game.

 

What cost them 3 points was there wasn't any time remaining... If they called a timeout on Miami's drive, they would have had an extra 35-40 seconds to operate. That part I think you need to accept. Sure the burned timeout did not help. But there were  much  bigger issues with the clock management

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

 

It's not a hot take at all, competent coaches optimize their team's opportunities. He didn't right there. As I've said, I'm not assuming we score with more time and I wouldn't have blamed McDermott if we had turned it over with more time and more plays to run. That's part of the game if that happens, but you have to give your team that opportunity.

 

McDermott sat on his timeouts when the Dolphins got inside the 10, he let a bunch of time go off the clock before the Dolphins ran that play and finally called the timeout with around 45 seconds or something left. There was no reason to do that. They're already inside the 10 with like a minute and a half and had all 3 of their own timeouts, they weren't in any kind of time crunch and we weren't helping them by calling timeouts. They could have called their own if they needed more time on anything. There is no disadvantage whatsoever to use your timeouts in that position. I'm all ears if you come up with anything.

 

If you want to say the runs at the beginning of the last drive were to make the Dolphins burn their timeouts...I disagree with the strategic view behind that but I can at least see the logic. I don't like being that conservative but there is some kind of rationale that you can fall back on there, which you can't for not taking the timeout when the Dolphins got inside our 10. 

 

As for the FG vs Hail Mary...I really didn't have a problem with that call either way, but I don't like your logic behind it. It's not because he missed a 55 yarder later in the game. He also missed an extra point, does that mean a 40 yard FG would've been out of the question there too? But it's a long field goal, no real issue for me with the Hail Mary after the timeout.

 

But yes, totally agree on the timeout. That was all because of indecisiveness. That's what McDermott struggles from. He's not prepared. His coordinators are not prepared. There are times when his bad management comes from his incredibly conservative nature, but sometimes it is because he just flat out doesn't know what to do. This is a big problem. It wasted a precious down. If we run a play with the timeout the way we should have, we likely still have the same two options if it's incomplete, or possibly a shorter FG if we make a quick play for a few yards. 

 

It's just inexcusably bad game management. 

 

 

I gave examples of other coaches doing it the same (including Reid and Belicheck) and McDermott did not sit on all of his time-outs - he had 2 to use and used 1.  Talk with coaches - many have shown they would rather have 30 seconds less and 1 timeout for their offense than the additional 30 because you can control so much on offense, but having the timeout is critical to force the other team to cover the whole field.

 

To your point - he ran because the Bills got the drive start at the 10 yard line with enough time that a quick stop would have given the ball right back to the Dolphins nearly in scoring position.  My guess is it would have been worse because if Miami had not called timeout- I think the Bills would of let the clock run out solely based on field position and the struggles of the young players on offense.

 

Once they got the ball passed the 25-30 yard line (4 plays into the drive) - they could open up the offense and the timeout allowed them to run a full offensive route tree and hit on a crossing route heading out of bounds at 20 yards.  Without the timeout - they guard the edges and make that throw much more difficult and you end up with dump offs and Allen running.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

Actually how about examples where McD used the clock well, made a good challenge and trusted the offense?

[Rochesterfan]

3 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

I don't know the scenarios in the game so I can't comment on the other ones. The example you gave me with the Pats yesterday though was a completely different scenario from the Bills dolphins game.

 

What cost them 3 points was there wasn't any time remaining... If they called a timeout on Miami's drive, they would have had an extra 35-40 seconds to operate. That part I think you need to accept. Sure the burned timeout did not help. But there were  much  bigger issues with the clock management

 

Yes they would of had 30 seconds and no timeouts - I think there is a bigger chance without the timeouts they are trying to run out the clock.

[Rochesterfan]

19 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Actually how about examples where McD used the clock well, made a good challenge and trusted the offense?

 

 

Since the offense has pretty much struggled - you will not see that.  

 

What you did see see this week and last week is that with Allen they are opening it up more than they did Last year - so I see minor progress.

 

Look McDermott is and will be a more conservative coach.  I do not expect that to change much at all as he moves forward.

 

I am just saying it is a mixed bag of how many timeouts defenses call and when to call them, but to say flat out the Bills did not use them is wrong.  The Bills used 1 of 2 and kept one for the offensive drive.

 

I would totally get the criticism if he had all 3 timeouts and they used none, but that is not what happened - they had 2 and used 1 on defense and the last one on offense.

 

I agree McDermott has a lot that he needs to get better at, but having a cruddy offense also impacts decisions.

[Spiderweb]

21 hours ago, Bill_with_it said:

This is an ll around bad thread. Too much hindsight. There is literally no way any of you questioning the end of the first half decisions by Sean thought the team would make it to the 40 considering the first half. Too many penalties and struggling to move the ball. Alot of the last call there was on the OC; numerous times theough the game Josh is looking to the sidelines motioning that the call needs to come in quicker. This game isnt on the HC.

Disagree. With the half running down, there is no way the Bills shouldn't have the play ready after the play before the hail Mary. Yes, this is a clock and game management failure pure and simple. The TO was brutally wasted. 

[Billsfan1972]

9 minutes ago, Spiderweb said:

Disagree. With the half running down, there is no way the Bills shouldn't have the play ready after the play before the hail Mary. Yes, this is a clock and game management failure pure and simple. The TO was brutally wasted. 

The clock was stopped, there was plenty of time to make a call and with a time out too for a quick 5 yard completion.