Atta Boy Josh - What a stud

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, BB@Shooter said:

So offenses are changing left and right. They are now trying to fit their offense in around a qbs talent and running college type offenses. But you are saying they are all wrong to do that. That Houston, Baltimore, the Rams, and other teams that are going away from drop back passing are wrong? If they are so wrong why are so many teams leaning that way? It started with the Wildcat offense and evolved from there. So you are thinking this is just a fad? They sure are investing a lot of money into a fad. And that fad is sure turning into a lot of wins. So it is not just Buffalo going that route. Even though Buffalo is doing it mostly out of need because of poor line play. But times are a changing, so best learn how to analyze a different way I guess. 

 

A long time ago I heard Bud Wilkinson wanted to bring in a bunch of college QB's that ran the option. His thinking was teams wouldn't see it much so they would have a hard time preparing for it and stopping it. Much like Navy, AFA, Army, and other schools that have recruiting problems because of admission requirements . They have to change things up and run option type offenses because of inferior players. Teams don't see that type of offense but once a year usually. Anyway it gives them an edge so they can compete.

 

Wilkinson knew his QBs would take a beating, so he would have to carry 4 to 5 QBs. I don't remember why it was never done for sure, probably because it wasn't conventional. But isn't the end game about wins? The announcers talked about what Beane said to them. It was basically that their offense was looking like Wyomings did when Allen played there. Wyoming didn't have much in personell to help Allen out, so they let Josh take over and carry the team. Allen learned how to squeak out wins playing like this. I really am not so sure why you are so hung up on pocket passers and conventional things like that. Look at how many times Mahomes, Watson. Jackson and others throw the ball outside the locket. The pocket used to be the golden standard for a qb. Things are changing. Back in Wilkinsons day there is no way he gets to run the option. Now teams are incorporating the veer,  wishbone , and all sorts of things into their offense. These new guys are not stuck in a time machine.  Their coaches are adapting to the player and fitting cogs into the machine that work well with what the QB can do. And like Baltimore, they have two guys that can run what they want to do in the future with Jackson and RG3. You will start to see more of that because teams are figuring out that they can win with a high powered offense. I still think a good defense is needed to win it all, but that is another discussion. 

 

Lamar Jackson is a fad - yes. Unless he improves as a passer he will not succeed in the NFL. One of the improvements in DeShaun Watson year 1 to year 2 is his play from the pocket and the numbers bear it out. He is throwing from there more often and more successfully than he did last year. While KC do get Mahomes out and on the edge some he can stand in there and throw. 

 

Josh is doing some good things - but ultimately I believe he or any other QB in the league who wants to have long term sustained success will need to do it from the pocket. 

[Seoulful Soul]

10 hours ago, PearlHowardman said:

Josh Allen has been playing competitive football for many years now.  HS, Jr. College, Wyoming, now with the Buffalo Bills.

 

His pass accuracy has never improved.

 

Sorry!

 

 

The Patriots message board is that way. . .maybe you'd feel more comfortable there.  ---------------------->

[BB@Shooter]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Lamar Jackson is a fad - yes. Unless he improves as a passer he will not succeed in the NFL. One of the improvements in DeShaun Watson year 1 to year 2 is his play from the pocket and the numbers bear it out. He is throwing from there more often and more successfully than he did last year. While KC do get Mahomes out and on the edge some he can stand in there and throw. 

 

Josh is doing some good things - but ultimately I believe he or any other QB in the league who wants to have long term sustained success will need to do it from the pocket. 

I guess that is your opinion, and no problem with that. But I feel with the pressure to win coaches aren't going to protect their QB's as much as they used to.  Why should they, if they don't produce they will be gone anyway. I think the scales are tipping the other way. And Watson is staying in the pocket more because he is hurt. And playing is better than watching. No, I believe at some point the old guard is going to be split and the new trend will set in. Like I said before, they are adopting college offenses because they work. There are certain teams that are hard to stop. If you can't see that Allen is a special player that got limited coaching up to this point, I don't know if you will ever get it. Riding the fence is very clever. This way you can say you had it figured whatever way it swings and you can keep on being the voice of reason while not committing. A very safe way to go about it. That way if either side attacks you , you then can go on record saying you never said that. I smell a guy that might have a journalism background. Or at least been around it enough. Kudos. 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by BB@Shooter

[Doc]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Lamar Jackson is a fad - yes. Unless he improves as a passer he will not succeed in the NFL. One of the improvements in DeShaun Watson year 1 to year 2 is his play from the pocket and the numbers bear it out. He is throwing from there more often and more successfully than he did last year. While KC do get Mahomes out and on the edge some he can stand in there and throw. 

 

Josh is doing some good things - but ultimately I believe he or any other QB in the league who wants to have long term sustained success will need to do it from the pocket. 

 

Ultimately he's going to need better players around him on offense.  He's running because he's not getting protection and/or guys aren't getting open fast enough.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BB@Shooter said:

I guess that is your opinion, and no problem with that. But I feel with the pressure to win coaches aren't going to protect their QB's as much as they used to.  Why should they, if they don't produce they will be gone anyway. I think the scales are tipping the other way. And Watson is staying in the pocket more because he is hurt. And playing is better than watching. No, I believe at some point the old guard is going to be split and the new trend will set in. Like I said before, they are adopting college offenses because they work. There are certain teams that are hard to stop. If you can't see that Allen is a special player that got limited coaching up to this point, I don't know if you will ever get it. Riding the fence is very clever. This way you can say you had it figured whatever way it swings and you can keep on being the voice of reason while not committing. A very safe way to go about it. That way if either side attacks you , you then can go on record saying you never said that. I smell a guy that might have a journalism background. Or at least been around it enough. Kudos. 

 

 

Haha. I do have a journalism background and a politics one so if I need to ride the fence believe me I know how to ride it. But I am committed on Josh - I said I wouldn't have drafted him.  That said I always evaluate players continuously based on what they do on the football field. I'm not the kind of fool who takes an opinion and sticks to it whatever happens thereafter. If Josh Allen ends up as the Franchise QB of the Bills there is plenty of scope for people to tell me "I told you so" not that I'll care. I don't really give two hoots about being right or wrong. My only concern is the Bills winning football games.

 

Even as someone who was one of the stronger anti-Allen voices pre-draft I think those who have read my posts since then would say I have always tried to be fair and reasoned. I thought he was very good last week and said so. I thought he had a really difficult game to evaluate this week because he did a lot in the passing game that was pretty bad but he also made some incredible plays - the second TD throw to Jones is one of the best throws I have seen a Bills QB make in a decade. And they couldn't stop his legs and he had us right there and gave us a chance to win at the end - and with better talent around him would likely have had a W to show for it. If you want me to be black and white on what happened yesterday I can't be because it was a really odd mix of a game.

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Ultimately he's going to need better players around him on offense.  He's running because he's not getting protection and/or guys aren't getting open fast enough.

Oh I totally agree Doc... with what is around Allen there was no chance we would know anything one way or the other this year. The talent around him sucks. I have been banging that drum all year.

[Dr. Who]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Haha. I do have a journalism background and a politics one so if I need to ride the fence believe me I know how to ride it. But I am committed on Josh - I said I wouldn't have drafted him.  That said I always evaluate players continuously based on what they do on the football field. I'm not the kind of fool who takes an opinion and sticks to it whatever happens thereafter. If Josh Allen ends up as the Franchise QB of the Bills there is plenty of scope for people to tell me "I told you so" not that I'll care. I don't really give two hoots about being right or wrong. My only concern is the Bills winning football games.

 

Even as someone who was one of the stronger anti-Allen voices pre-draft I think those who have read my posts since then would say I have always tried to be fair and reasoned. I thought he was very good last week and said so. I thought he had a really difficult game to evaluate this week because he did a lot in the passing game that was pretty bad but he also made some incredible plays - the second TD throw to Jones is one of the best throws I have seen a Bills QB make in a decade. And they couldn't stop his legs and he had us right there and gave us a chance to win at the end - and with better talent around him would likely have had a W to show for it. If you want me to be black and white on what happened yesterday I can't be because it was a really odd mix of a game.

I am and have been since before the draft someone who thought highly of Allen's potential. I think he is showing enough to vindicate optimism. BB@Shooter's consistent defense of Allen is alright so far as I'm concerned, but if he's pegged you as a fella with an agenda, he's not reading well enough.

[BuffaLoko]

17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Really strange game to evaluate. I thought Josh was off in the passing game most of the day, but he made a couple of fantastic throws - the second TD in particular - and he made a lot of plays with his legs. 

 

I still need to see more consistency throwing from the pocket. That is how you ultimately win consistently in this league. 

pocket???  which pocket??   with soundbites ala Jim Mora....

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, BuffaLoko said:

pocket???  which pocket??   with soundbites ala Jim Mora....

 

Well indeed. Part of that development is definitely about the Bills putting the right pieces around him. Offensive line and weapons.

[eball]

17 hours ago, PearlHowardman said:

JA has had the same pass accuracy problem his whole football life.

 

 

Ironically, you have had the same posting inaccuracy problem your whole message board life. 

[Doc]

46 minutes ago, BuffaLoko said:

pocket???  which pocket??   with soundbites ala Jim Mora....

 

I think he meant to say consistency of a pocket.

[Dr. K]

13 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

And had the nice pass overturned that would have been first and goal at the five.

 

Granted, it would have been a terrific catch, and I think the refs made the right call, but it was a very good back shoulder throw.

And there should have been a defensive pass interference call on the pay. 

[Royale with Cheese]

What I love is that if it's 3rd and long....like 3rd and 14 long....I think we have a chance to complete it.

We have a situation where we aren't just running a draw on these situations...we have a guy that's willing to push it downfield and has the arm to fit it in tight windows on these 3rd and unmanageable plays. 

[wppete]

Josh Allen looked great yesterday. Yes some throws he would like to have back but in total I think for a rookie he is playing well he will be a star in the next couple of years.

[CLTbills]

18 hours ago, PearlHowardman said:

Josh Allen has been playing competitive football for many years now.  HS, Jr. College, Wyoming, now with the Buffalo Bills.

 

His pass accuracy has never improved.

 

Sorry!

 

Have you watched him play the last two games? or just read the stat sheet?

[HomeskillitMoorman]

13 hours ago, BB@Shooter said:

Probably better give him a little more time before you pigeon hole him into whatever category you are leaning now. He is a raw rookie who keeps improving quickly . Are you guys not watching what the other rookie QBs are doing? Why the rush to even start questioning him. That was his seventh game. And he is making throws out of the pocket. He could probably make more but his line breaks down too fast. Do you not see how many tackles he breaks and how many sacks he gets out of?  Are you guys so blind you can't see what he is bringing to the table? Allen started slow today. I have seen that tendency in him at Wyoming.  But when he is on, he is almost unstoppable.

 

Do you think Shady and the other veterans would share your thinking?  They are in the trenches with him and know what good QBs look like. I think if they posted on here they would laugh at you and roast you.  Before it is all said and done there will be GM's wondering why they didn't pull the trigger. And it will be because they worried too much about stats and couldn't see past it like you guys. There is nothing he is doing that can't be fixed. I think you guys are trying to overthink it so you can tell everyone you had it right all along. I catch posters on this board who have flipped over towards Allen and only a few weeks ago they said he would be a journeyman qb at best. Now they are singing his praises and thinking no one remembers what they said about him.

 

If Allen stays healthy he is a franchise qb. If you can't see that I guess you can sit back and try to pick him apart and act like some kind of QB whisperer. I don't see any great knowledge coming from you. Just someone riding the fence waiting to see which way the wind blows. I usually like your posts, but now I am starting to see through you. I guess not everyone can be on the bandwagon, or it would get boring.

Good post.

 

What I posted was the exact opposite of pigeon-holing Allen into anything, I think I mentioned like 3 different times in that one post that it's hard to say what he's going to become. I've also lauded his escapability and talked about how he's made plays in spite of the o-line, lack of weapons, and conservative coaching. I created a thread about McDermott butchering the end of the first half that basically wasted an entire possession for him. To say "nothing he is doing can't be fixed" is incredibly vague. Can accuracy substantially improve? Absolutely, but it doesn't for way more QB's than it does. I do think for him it can enough to where with his other playmaking abilities he can be a franchise QB, but I need to see more.

 

The rest of your post, and at least a couple of your responses to other people here are so fixated on message board agenda paranoia. I understand a lot of people have one, but that's not everyone. I'm not trying at all to "ride the fence" on Allen, I've pretty much said since the beginning that I don't know if he's a franchise QB and that I simply wanted to watch him play. I didn't watch one second of him at Wyoming. Frankly, unless anyone works for a team or went to Wyoming and is a fan...I would be kind of concerned about people who did spend their free time watching Wyoming games. My honest take is that there are things that I like about him, more than any QB we've had since I first became a fan which was during the Flutie years, but I need to see how much his accuracy and anticipation progresses. I don't think I've written anywhere at any time that I'm trying to impart some kind of great knowledge. I don't see any from you either with generic comments like "nothing he is doing can't be fixed". I don't rewatch games or look at all-22's or breakdowns, let alone for other QB's or teams. I've never posted an "I told you so" about Allen here after pretty much being neutral on him. 

 

There are other things about the team I'm more strongly rooted in my opinion about, like McDermott's shortcomings as a gameday coach. I can and will back that up all day against anyone with examples and factual evidence. I don't pretend I have that with Allen on the broader scale of calling him a franchise QB, I don't think we've seen enough. I don't really get why people have to choose a side with him at this point. But you go ahead with your little fishing expedition to "catch" people who you think are changing opinions. On a rookie QB. Who's played like 7 games. Totally out of line for anyone to not have a definitive statement on him already.

Edited December 3, 2018 by HomeskillitMoorman

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, PearlHowardman said:

Josh Allen has been playing competitive football for many years now.  HS, Jr. College, Wyoming, now with the Buffalo Bills.

His pass accuracy has never improved.

Sorry!

 

19 hours ago, PearlHowardman said:

JA has had the same pass accuracy problem his whole football life.

 

Josh Allen JuCo completion percentage at Reedley: 49%

Josh Allen completion percentage at Wyoming: 56.2%
 

Logically, given your repeated assertion that Josh Allen's pass accuracy has never improved, 49% vs 56% must represent no change in your view.

Of those NFL QB whose completion percentage did improve, either between college and pros or 1st vs 2nd pro team, the change was less than 7%.

 

Therefore,  we can safely conclude that even if Josh Allen's completion percentage were to increase by 7% in the pros to 63%, you will assert that he has not improved.

QED

 

[foreboding]

18 hours ago, TPS said:

26 Posted this stat earlier in the week and it should be pinned for the Allen critics.

This shows you just how good Deshaun is playing, and he and Josh play a similar style.

[TPS]

1 minute ago, foreboding said:

This shows you just how good Deshaun is playing, and he and Josh play a similar style.

Agreed.  Now go get Josh some similar weapons at WR....

[BB@Shooter]

20 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

What I posted was the exact opposite of pigeon-holing Allen into anything, I think I mentioned like 3 different times in that one post that it's hard to say what he's going to become. I've also lauded his escapability and talked about how he's made plays in spite of the o-line, lack of weapons, and conservative coaching. I created a thread about McDermott butchering the end of the first half that basically wasted an entire possession for him. To say "nothing he is doing can't be fixed" is incredibly vague. Can accuracy substantially improve? Absolutely, but it doesn't for way more QB's than it does. I do think for him it can enough to where with his other playmaking abilities he can be a franchise QB, but I need to see more.

 

The rest of your post, and at least a couple of your responses to other people here are so fixated on message board agenda paranoia. I understand a lot of people have one, but that's not everyone. I'm not trying at all to "ride the fence" on Allen, I've pretty much said since the beginning that I don't know if he's a franchise QB and that I simply wanted to watch him play. I didn't watch one second of him at Wyoming. Frankly, unless anyone works for a team or went to Wyoming and is a fan...I would be kind of concerned about people who did spend their free time watching Wyoming games. My honest take is that there are things that I like about him, more than any QB we've had since I first became a fan which was during the Flutie years, but I need to see how much his accuracy and anticipation progresses. I don't think I've written anywhere at any time that I'm trying to impart some kind of great knowledge. I don't see any from you either with generic comments like "nothing he is doing can't be fixed". I don't rewatch games or look at all-22's or breakdowns, let alone for other QB's or teams. I've never posted an "I told you so" about Allen here after pretty much being neutral on him. 

 

There are other things about the team I'm more strongly rooted in my opinion about, like McDermott's shortcomings as a gameday coach. I can and will back that up all day against anyone with examples and factual evidence. I don't pretend I have that with Allen on the broader scale of calling him a franchise QB, I don't think we've seen enough. I don't really get why people have to choose a side with him at this point. But you go ahead with your little fishing expedition to "catch" people who you think are changing opinions. On a rookie QB. Who's played like 7 games. Totally out of line for anyone to not have a definitive statement on him already.

For beginners I don't think he has accuracy problems. That is a myth that the media and casual observers chant. Do you actually watch other qbs who only have three years or less playing time? They are inconsistent at best. There are a few like Mahomes who were put in the right system with the right players who are strutting their stuff. As far as receivers getting better seperation, I suppose that is a little bit better from time to time, but even McDermott said yesterday that Allen is still having to put up with his receivers not getting seperation. For one, the receivers we are bringing in are players who have been cut from other teams or couldn't even beat out our own crappy receivers at the start of the year. Saying that, so what makes you think these receivers are anywhere near what other teams use to make their qbs preform better ? What does that say about their route running? Their understanding of our offense and the timing they have built up with Allen?

 

Sometimes it takes years for QB's to get on the same page as their receivers.  Even Brady struggled with new receivers earlier this year and the media flocked to his defense. And he is a guy who has been in the same system forever, is considered to be the greatest ever, throws quick passes that don't take long to develop, and has a better line and talent all around him. He also has an OC that knows him, that keeps him one step ahead of defenses most all times , and they have worked together forever. But anytime the Patriots miss one lineman or one leaves for free agency,  the media makes like it is the end of the dynasty. Do you think Josh Allen gets that kind of support from the media? That they justify a few bad passes and don't scream accuracy problems every time he throws a ball that doesn't hit a receiver in the chest? Why you and others are fixated on saying he has accuracy problems is lost on me.

 

When you watch the other two thirds of football games with teams who don't have qbs named Brady, Brees, Rivers, etc, you see guys who would be considered to have accuracy problems if you watched tape along side with Josh Allen. There is no difference between them and Allen as far as ball placement. The main difference if it really matters that much is Allen will have two or three that are not even close. And that right there is when people like you jump on it. But if another qb does it. It is overlooked as being a rookie , or a miscommunication. I could go on all day and address every one of your "opinions ". But this thread would be way longer than it already is. And when you accuse me of being incredibly vague,  I really have to laugh. One thing I am not is incredibly vague.

 

A few last things, I am not and don't have to be on a fishing expedition to catch anyone who is flipping on their opinion about Allen. They stand out on their own easily enough. It wouldn't be hard to go back to some of the posts they ranted on about Allen and how horrible he was. They didn't bother to give themselves an out like you do. So in effect, I don't have to catch anyone as I remember it quite clearly. Some of us have stayed the course and understood he is a rookie on a bad team. After one game everyone was saying the Bills might win 1 game all year. That is how bad the talent on the Bills is. I think if our veterans and veterans of other teams brag on Allen , it validates it enough in my mind that I don't feel the need to read "opinions" from wannabe GM's. This is basically a fan site that serves as a sounding board for a lot of guys who might have played jr. high football. Most are not even to the Al Bundy level of high school football.  I can at least say I played at a level above high school. And I have no real problem with guys hashing out football, that is what this site is for. Freedom of the press baby. But I will defend my opinion, just like what you do. After all, that is the fun part. My wife is the boss, so I don't get to talk sports as much as I like. Thus, the use of this board.  Sorry this got so long. Vague my butt. Lol.?

[BB@Shooter]

22 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Haha. I do have a journalism background and a politics one so if I need to ride the fence believe me I know how to ride it. But I am committed on Josh - I said I wouldn't have drafted him.  That said I always evaluate players continuously based on what they do on the football field. I'm not the kind of fool who takes an opinion and sticks to it whatever happens thereafter. If Josh Allen ends up as the Franchise QB of the Bills there is plenty of scope for people to tell me "I told you so" not that I'll care. I don't really give two hoots about being right or wrong. My only concern is the Bills winning football games.

 

Even as someone who was one of the stronger anti-Allen voices pre-draft I think those who have read my posts since then would say I have always tried to be fair and reasoned. I thought he was very good last week and said so. I thought he had a really difficult game to evaluate this week because he did a lot in the passing game that was pretty bad but he also made some incredible plays - the second TD throw to Jones is one of the best throws I have seen a Bills QB make in a decade. And they couldn't stop his legs and he had us right there and gave us a chance to win at the end - and with better talent around him would likely have had a W to show for it. If you want me to be black and white on what happened yesterday I can't be because it was a really odd mix of a game.

Oh I totally agree Doc... with what is around Allen there was no chance we would know anything one way or the other this year. The talent around him sucks. I have been banging that drum all year.

I knew you had journalism in you. Lol. I didn't read the politician part in. The journalist part of you was kind of a smokescreen hiding it. I am pretty good at reading people, but tend to be in attack mode on these sites because people have a tendency to twist your words. Kind of like politics.?  I will enjoy your threads even more now. Thanks for opening up . With my Wyoming ties, I am an Allen fan big time. But don't get me wrong, I am hard on him internally. It is just so many others were bashing him,  I wasn't going to give them ammunition.  Lol.