So our bust qb was responsible for nearly 400 yards of offense

[Doc]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

Every single QB is going to have the same variables as far as throwing the ball away, etc. Completion pctg is a pretty good metric for determining accuracy for an NFL QB.

 

What is so controversial about saying he needs to become a more efficient passer?

 

Nothing.  But what is wrong with admitting his supporting cast is poor and a reason why his completion percentage suffers?

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Every single QB is going to have the same variables as far as throwing the ball away, etc. Completion pctg is a pretty good metric for determining accuracy for an NFL QB.

 

What is so controversial about saying he needs to become a more efficient passer?

Nothing.  I've said often he has things to learn and has a ways to go.  But this business about some magical difference between 60% and 55% completion rate somehow meaning he's inaccurate and that it's some bellweather is nonsense, and simple math and stats show it.

[Bill_with_it]

5 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Every single QB is going to have the same variables as far as throwing the ball away, etc. Completion pctg is a pretty good metric for determining accuracy for an NFL QB.

 

What is so controversial about saying he needs to become a more efficient passer?

Thats simply incorrect. I guarantee Brady and Goff throw the ball away less than other qbs. Have you watched any other game than the Bills? Every rb in new englands offense usually turns around 3 yards from the line of scrimmage looking for the ball. Thats a staple of the Patriots offense. Touchdown to checkdown.

[LSHMEAB]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Nothing.  But what is wrong with admitting his supporting cast is poor and a reason why his completion percentage suffers?

Nothing. But there are still some head scratching errant throws that need to be minimized. I don't expect them to be eliminated because precision passing is not his thing and he's elite in terms of arm strength and mobility. Better supporting cast will certainly help, but he's also got to cut down on the mistakes. Hopefully that comes with confidence/comfort at this level. This past performance was encouraging.

2 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Thats simply incorrect. I guarantee Brady and Goff throw the ball away less than other qbs. Have you watched any other game than the Bills? Every rb in new englands offense usually turns around 3 yards from the line of scrimmage looking for the ball. Thats a staple of the Patriots offense. Touchdown to checkdown.

Then we're gonna need to alter our offense and Josh is going to have to work on touch. 

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

This is fair.  Clearly I am not doing a good job of making my argument.  The Tebow comparison I tried to make wasn’t about Allen and Tebow being the same guy, but was an attempt to make my original and only point here wich is that Accuracy way more often than not, doesn’t just happen, many very good prospects, with good coaching often fail to improve this vital skill.  My whole point is that many many posters here, when talking about Allen, are dismissive of his lack of accuracy and explain it away like it’s simply a matter of time and is bound to happen.  If there were several past cases I’d this happening then it would be something to be assumed and dismissive about.  The past suggests that in fact accuracy is very difficult to improve and for a good many humans, is something you are born with or not.  I am not taking anything away from the raw prospect he is.  He is a tremendous prospect.  I would be excited at this point if I were a bulls fan to see if he can get better because he shows so much of what you want a QB to be.  That said it is not a given he’ll ever be consistently accurate enough to be a franchise type QB and any analysis that involves just assuming some linear improvement.  

 

The accuracy is is a concern and a problem.  It was on draft day and it still is.  

At risk of collecting another point: your argument is garbage. You started by saying he's 'inaccurate' which, by your definition, is measured by completion percentage. Which is just...again, I guess this is risky, but there's really no way around it: it's dumb. It's so misguided, so short-sighted, so ridiculously agenda-driven to look at a guy's completion percentage and say 'hey he's inaccurate' you might as well not have said anything. At least then I might have given you the benefit of the doubt. But since you're keeping at it- completion percentage is dependent on SO MANY VARIABLES outside how accurately a QB throws the ball that to quantify it thus is simply exposing your ignorance. Imagine, say, throwing the exact same ball the exact same amount of times against the same defense to Charles Clay and Travis Kelce. The QB (it could even be the SAME QB) throwing to Clay is going to have a lower completion percentage, throwing the exact same ball in the exact same spot, exactly the same accuracy. Now do it for Kelvin Benjamin and Tyreek Hill. Or the scrubs at Wyoming vs Louisville wideouts. Still not getting the picture?

 

You don't understand what 'accuracy' even is. It's not some intangible thing 'you're born with or not'. It's the ability to replicate, over a given amount of time, consistent ball placement. Allen can make all the throws, hit all the spots, as shown thus far. He's made accurate throws. He has accuracy. Stop saying he doesn't, because you're wrong. Sorry. What he lacks is CONSISTENCY, a concept not unrelated to accuracy but wholly different, in that it concerns certain functions (read: teachable, duplicable, ABLE TO IMPROVE UPON) QB mechanics that a guy like Allen, generally considered 'raw', may not have yet mastered and have prevented him from being CONSISTENTLY ACCURATE. You see the difference? 

 

Your insistence on comparing him to Tebow, or saying that he was outperformed by Barkley and Anderson, led me to believe you were trolling. If you weren't I apologize...it's possible you genuinely don't know what you're talking about. I hope this serves to help. Consider actually watching the Bills play first, THEN offer up your takes. My rep w/the moderators will thank you for it.

[stinky finger]

On 12/2/2018 at 6:40 PM, PeterDude said:

 

I'm not the one with the burden of proof, I'll be here.

 

You really hope you're right, don't you?

[Bill_with_it]

13 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Nothing. But there are still some head scratching errant throws that need to be minimized. I don't expect them to be eliminated because precision passing is not his thing and he's elite in terms of arm strength and mobility. Better supporting cast will certainly help, but he's also got to cut down on the mistakes. Hopefully that comes with confidence/comfort at this level. This past performance was encouraging.

Then we're gonna need to alter our offense and Josh is going to have to work on touch. 

We win that game if the guy who gets paid to be a professional pass catcher whom the ball hits bith hands who is also on our special teams hands teams for onsides kicks catches the ball. We dont have to change anything except for execution of the game.

[Kelly the Dog]

Inaccuracy takes a lot of forms. Two of the latest Bills QBs were inaccurate passers, EJ and Tyrod, regardless of their completion percentage. Many, many of their completions were not really accurate passes, hitting players right on the numbers or easy for RAC or getting a first down because they were reaching for completed passes. Josh, however, guns many of his passes right on the money, often through tight windows. He's very often extremely accurate.

 

An "inaccurate passer" doesn't do that nearly as much as Allen. 

[Success]

35 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

His completion percentage is 52.9.

 

I would say he must get better if he wants to be a top QB. 

Think about the game yesterday.  18-33.  After a 1-6 start.  The last 2 passes should have been catches.  There were at least 2 other easy drops.  There was the bomb to Foster that missed by a foot, and a Hail Mary.

 

People only bring up accuracy with Allen because it was in scouting reports they googled on draft day.

[oldmanfan]

33 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Every single QB is going to have the same variables as far as throwing the ball away, etc. Completion pctg is a pretty good metric for determining accuracy for an NFL QB.

 

What is so controversial about saying he needs to become a more efficient passer?

By the way, a sweeping generalization like this with no support adds nothing to the discussion.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Zerovotlz said:

This is fair.  Clearly I am not doing a good job of making my argument.  The Tebow comparison I tried to make wasn’t about Allen and Tebow being the same guy, but was an attempt to make my original and only point here wich is that Accuracy way more often than not, doesn’t just happen, many very good prospects, with good coaching often fail to improve this vital skill.  My whole point is that many many posters here, when talking about Allen, are dismissive of his lack of accuracy and explain it away like it’s simply a matter of time and is bound to happen.  If there were several past cases I’d this happening then it would be something to be assumed and dismissive about.  The past suggests that in fact accuracy is very difficult to improve and for a good many humans, is something you are born with or not.  I am not taking anything away from the raw prospect he is.  He is a tremendous prospect.  I would be excited at this point if I were a bulls fan to see if he can get better because he shows so much of what you want a QB to be.  That said it is not a given he’ll ever be consistently accurate enough to be a franchise type QB and any analysis that involves just assuming some linear improvement.  

 

The accuracy is is a concern and a problem.  It was on draft day and it still is.  

 

I agree with the point that it's not at all a given that accuracy will improve.

 

One of the things that concerns me most about Allen is his relative inaccuracy on the "gimme" throws, the quick dump offs, the screens and so forth.  One could see this at the combine if one turned off the announcers and just watched, one could see this at his pro day, and one can see this in games.  To be fair, it's pretty clear that Allen has been working hard at this and I do see improvement.  But it's not "money" for him yet, and it needs to be "money", 75-80%.

 

On the other hand, people who want to say "he's inaccurate" are, IMO, often looking at throws which are off by feet or yards, where it's not at all clear whether Allen and the receiver were on the same page, whether the route was being run as expected, and so forth.  Typically when any guy who has made it through HS and college as a QB is off by yards, it's because the ball more-or-less went where the QB wanted it to, the receiver was just expecting the QB to want it to go somewhere else and that's where he went - somewhere else.

 

That's not to say that Allen has the pinpoint accuracy of Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees at this point, or will ever develop it, just that usually when I read people talking about Allen making "a bad throw" or "he's inaccurate", the throw that they're referencing isn't a clear example of inaccuracy.

 

18 minutes ago, Success said:

People only bring up accuracy with Allen because it was in scouting reports they googled on draft day.

 

Or eyeballs.  People bring up accuracy with Allen because, eyeballs.  Truly.  Although again, TBF, the throws that people assert as "bad throws" or "inaccurate" are often the ones that are most likely to be the WR and QB not being on the same page.

[Magox]

I started a thread right when Allen was drafted saying that it was completely overblown the criticism regarding his lack of "accuracy".    That although it's true that he does miss some easy passes and that I completely chalk that up to mechanics but he actually can be pretty damn accurate.   

 

He is an exciting QB and he is showing that he's even more athletic than we had all anticipated, I knew he was athletic but the stuff that he's doing right now is jaw dropping.  He's a highlight reel waiting to happen.  I feel like if the ball is in his hands anything can happen.

 

And even though he's had 2 incredible rushing for yards performance that isn't what's going to define him.    I said it in that thread, what is going to make him special will be his ability to extend plays out of the pocket and make plays down the field.  If we can get some weapons who know how to make plays down the field and recognize that with Allen they need to learn to put in the extra time to make plays outside of the intended route down the field we are going to see some real fireworks.    He's going to make his name throwing the ball outside of the pocket. 

 

He'll never be a top 5 pocket passer but if he can become average in the pocket and elite outside of it then that's our franchise QB.

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, Success said:

Think about the game yesterday.  18-33.  After a 1-6 start.  The last 2 passes should have been catches.  There were at least 2 other easy drops.  There was the bomb to Foster that missed by a foot, and a Hail Mary.

 

People only bring up accuracy with Allen because it was in scouting reports they googled on draft day.

No. They bring up accuracy issues because his completion pctg in college was crap and his NFL completion pctg is crap.

 

He does not have great touch on gimmies and he makes some head scratching errant throws.

 

For all his strengths, he is not a particularly accurate passer. Simply acknowledging an obvious flaw shouldn't be that difficult. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

No. They bring up accuracy issues because his completion pctg in college was crap and his NFL completion pctg is crap.

 

He does not have great touch on gimmies and he makes some head scratching errant throws.

 

For all his strengths, he is not a particularly accurate passer. Simply acknowledging an obvious flaw shouldn't be that difficult. 

People have explained with rational explanation why you're wrong but you keep clinging to irrational thoughts.  

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

By the way, a sweeping generalization like this with no support adds nothing to the discussion.

His completion percentage sucks. He has not demonstrated touch on what should be gimmies. He's got a rocket arm and incredible mobility.

 

One man's sweeping generalization is another man's fact.

 

You're the one twisting in knots making excuses for a poor number.

 

Edit: It's really hard to have honest dialogue with people who seem incapable of honestly assessing the kid's performance. Message board discussions aside, he needs to improve his efficiency numbers. It's really not complicated.

Edited December 4, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[oldmanfan]

Just now, LSHMEAB said:

His completion percentage sucks. He has not demonstrated touch on what should be gimmies. He's got a rocket arm and incredible mobility.

 

One man's sweeping generalization is another man's fact.

 

You're the one twisting in knots making excuses for a poor number.

I explained the math about completion percentage.  You throw 30 passes in a game it's 1.5 passes different between 60% and 55%.  Those are factual mathematics and statistically meaningless.   You continue to make grand criticisms based on nothing factual.

 

Young QBs need to develop.  We all know that.  Except for you apparently.

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

For all his strengths, he is not a particularly accurate passer.

 

This is totally different from being an accurate passer. He is not a particularly accurate passer, as in he will never be known for his consistently precise ball placement like Brees and Brady. That is not the same thing as saying he is an inaccurate passer. The comparison to EJ Manuel is perfect. Allen made at least 3 throws yesterday that were more accurate than anything Manuel ever threw when you account for difficulty of the throw. Off the top of my head the sideline pass to Zay, the 2nd TD to Zay, and the ball thrown to McKenzie on I think the last drive of the 1st half. Those were all extremely accurate passes. I'm pretty sure after his first 2 inaccurate passes he only had 2 more.

Edited December 4, 2018 by HappyDays

[PIZ]

"It took Tom Brady just 18 seasons and 12 games to reach 1,000 rushing yards".

 

The Checkdown presents  “A Football Life: Run Tommy, Run” featuring NFL Legends. 

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

I explained the math about completion percentage.  You throw 30 passes in a game it's 1.5 passes different between 60% and 55%.  Those are factual mathematics and statistically meaningless.   You continue to make grand criticisms based on nothing factual.

 

Young QBs need to develop.  We all know that.  Except for you apparently.

Yes. They need to develop and get better in areas where there is room for growth. In Allen's case, that would be accuracy and efficiency. I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult for you to comprehend.

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is totally different from being an accurate passer. He is not a particularly accurate passer, as in he will never be known for his consistently precise ball placement like Brees and Brady. That is not the same thing as saying he is an inaccurate passer. The comparison to EJ Manuel is perfect. Allen made at least 3 throws yesterday that were more accurate than anything Manuel ever threw when you account for difficulty of the throw. Off the top of my head the sideline pass to Zay, the 2nd TD to Zay, and the ball thrown to McKenzie on I think the last drive of the 1st half. Those were all extremely accurate passes. I'm pretty sure after his first 2 inaccurate passes he only had 2 more.

I don't really disagree with any of this as I'm more bullish on Allen than I've ever been. His strengths are really something else and even better than advertised. The TD to Jones in the back of the endzone was a wakeup call to anyone not wiling to at least give him a chance.

 

In order to take that next step, he's going to need to develop some touch on the short and intermediate passes. Perhaps that will come with repetition and confidence.

[Kelly the Dog]

6 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

In order to take that next step, he's going to need to develop some touch on the short and intermediate passes. Perhaps that will come with repetition and confidence.

 

The lob to DiMarco was perfect touch on an intermediate pass and example he took a lot off his throw. He threw a couple darts on short passes to McKenzie. He threw a very accurate short pass to McCoy on the second play of the 90 yard two-minute drive just when we needed it.