So our bust qb was responsible for nearly 400 yards of offense

[Trogdor]

It was a pretty good game, but Miami has the 29th ranked defense. He has shown he can run, but struggles to pass against even just decent defenses. People were wide open all game and he made them pay in some big spots and missed badly on others. Hopefully we see this production against quality opponents and on a regular basis. Also, the decision to cut the punter/holder again so late is having in impact. You could see how uncomfortable Hauschka was and it's a tough field anyway.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

15 hours ago, buffalobillswin said:

Stats are nice. Wins are better.

 

We won the Titans game. I feel much better about our QB after this L than that W. 

[WideNine]

6 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I count Clays drop bringing it to nearly 400

 

Might as well throw in KB's alligator-arm "attempt".

 

Hilarious that Lofton, a venerated retired NFL WR, up in the booth announcing the game, had the same comments we Bills fans have been saying this year. He at first jokingly said that KB's arms shrank from the time they were measured by the team, and then went on to say that he was justifiably in hot water with folks in Buffalo for lack of compete.

 

Yep.

[BB@Shooter]

7 hours ago, Success said:

I wish I could remember...it was awhile ago.  He really broke it all down.  It eased a lot of my fears about accuracy, and also emphasized how important context is.

 

It’s late and I’m beat, but I’ll see if I can find it tomorrow.  I really knew zilch about Allen in college, but I love how he’s playing for us so far.  Obviously he has a ways to go, but he has intangibles you can’t teach.  He has that competitive fire that you want in your QB.

He is fun, but very raw. I like that he is a sponge, gobbling up all the info fed him. One small example is how he made himself slide feet first this last game and go out of bounds. A quick turnaround from a short week ago.

[auburnbillsbacker]

16 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Bills fans: Yards don’t matter, wins do

 

Also Bills fans: Yeah we lost but look at the amount of yards he had!

Doug Flutie Fans: We don't care that the offense has a lot of talent but still barely produces (especially year 2).  We will give Flutie credit for all of the Bills wins even though we have the best defense in the league.  

Meanwhile, Josh Allen has kept a Bills team with very little offensive talent competitive.  

[1963Billsfan7]

15 hours ago, PeterDude said:

Who's pretending?

 

He's showing his inconsistencies in the passing game and using his legs to try to compensate, just like most other running QB's have done. What we're seeing here is nothing new, it has happened in the league before... How many turn out to be the franchise QB y'all are hoping for?

He is not a running QB. They had one designed run for him in the Dolphins game.  He is going back to pass and then scrambling. Like Rogers does. Like Steve Young and Fran Tarkington did in their careers. Allen is a cross between Steve Young and big ben. all Qb’s make mistakes they do stupid stuff, make bad throws, miss the open receivers. Not see the open receivers Ect, Ect. What he showed yesterday is he is a leader he took the bull by the horns at the end of the game starting on his own 10 yard line. He lead them and willed them down the field. He has skills you can not teach or find. So I say get on board and stop complaing. Will he ever be a 70 percent thrower probably not. but I can see him getting to 65 percent. Which would be higher then Jim Kelly. So let him play and develop. He needs a complete off season OTA’s, full training camp with all 1st team reps and a roster remake on offense. Things will slow down, concepts will start to take hold. I can only imagine what this kid becomes if he stays healthy. He’s got the look and attitude of a winner and leader. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

Why did the two QB under Coach Bohl, who were before Allen have signifigantly higher completion pcts?

 

The two QB before Allen under Coach Bohl were

-Kirkegaard, who had a completion percentage of 57.4% on 359 attempts

-Coffman, who had a completion percentage of 63.1% on 241 attempts

-then Allen 2016, 56% on 373 attempts

 

1. do you really want to make a case that 57.4% is significantly higher than 56%?

2. when I look at a QB with >100 fewer attempts, higher completion percentage, and possibly similar personnel, I tend to say "gee, maybe he was taking fewer shots". 

 

You?

[BB@Shooter]

 

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The two QB before Allen under Coach Bohl were

-Kirkegaard, who had a completion percentage of 57.4% on 359 attempts

-Coffman, who had a completion percentage of 63.1% on 241 attempts

-then Allen 2016, 56% on 373 attempts

 

1. do you really want to make a case that 57.4% is significantly higher than 56%?

2. when I look at a QB with >100 fewer attempts, higher completion percentage, and possibly similar personnel, I tend to say "gee, maybe he was taking fewer shots". 

 

You?

Kirkegaard was an option qb. Coffman was a transfer from I do believe Illinois. Neither one had a very good skillset. Plus the line play was pretty bad. They had decent running backs, and the receivers were barely adequate and young. The season Allen took over for Coffman and got hurt, he was special right away. You could tell on his first drive. Unfortunately Wyoming is a lot like Buffalo, not much good happens to us, thus the injury. But some goof did come from it, Allen bulked up in the weight room and added needed weight. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by BB@Shooter

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

How long can you keep using the supporting cast as a crutch?  Derek Anderson has a 60% completion rate with these guys.  Matt Barkley has a 60% completion rate with these guys.  Nathan Peterman........has a 54% completion pct with these guys....wich is higher than Allens.  

 

And all 3 of them are trying to make the exact same set of throws to these guys, right?

Oh, wait...

 

Look, Allen has some accuracy issues.  In particular, he has a tendency to be inaccurate on short "gimme" tosses that are a critical part of an NFL QB's vocabularly.

 

But pretending you can make an apples-to-apples comparison between the throws Peterman made and the throws Allen made or tries to make, is just silly.

 

PS: Anderson and Barkley are veterans, they're supposed to be better at reading coverage and figuring out where to go with the ball.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, Zerovotlz said:

IF Tebow were accurate he would be a star.....that's the thing that bothers me...No one could make Tebow more accurate...he didn't have it in him...and he had Baby Hoodie coaching him.  Improving accuracy is not a given...it's much more likely that it doesn't improve.....If you could take a guy whose problem is accuracy and fix it....then guys like Lamar Jackson and Mike Vick would have been all time greats.

 

Please stop with the Tebow stuff.

 

You've got a point about improving QB accuracy not being a given, but rather something relatively rare and difficult. 

 

But no one thought Tebow could pass.  His whole passing motion was crap from the start, and known to be crap from the start.  No one lined up at the Combine to ooh and ahh over his throws.  He never made the kind of passes Allen makes sometimes that snap your head around and drop your jaw.  Stop with the Tebow stuff, it's simply an inapt comparison. 

 

As for "Baby Hoodie" coaching him, that counts as a positive when "Baby Hoodie" shows he can develop a QB.  So far his track record is not good.  Sam Bradford, who can actually pass and play QB when healthy, looked totally incompetent with McDaniels as OC.  53.6% completion percentage and 6 TD, 6 INT in 10 games.  Magically, his completion percentage and TD/INT were better his rookie season under Shurmer and magically improved the following year under Schottenheimer.  Huh.

 

The  "Lamar Jackson would have been all time greats" is also wierd - he's a rookie, like Allen.  He might improve, he might not.  He might be an all time great, he might not.  But talking about what he "would have been" when he's still a rookie is - agenda-ish, I'll just say that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

18 hours ago, buffalobillswin said:

Are we just ignoring the INTs and the missed TD to Zay?

Not saying he wasn't good, but let's not act like he was perfect

 

One justified complaint about Peterman was, he ran out of bounds, on an end-of-game final play where a Hail Mary would have had no downside and potential upside.

So please, let's not talk of "INTs".  One of them was an end of half play where an INT (as the clock expired) did absolutely no harm.

 

It was absolutely the correct play and showed Allen to be a "team guy", making the right play for the team at the cost of another INT on his stats.

 

18 hours ago, BILLS55 said:

Josh missed a couple throws that should have been TDs. One to Jones in the EZ. Threw behind him. Their was another to a wide open Receiver ( can't remember who) on the sideline that had nothing but daylight and he overthrew him.  I do blame this lose on Josh. I also see him improving so I have hope.

 

We get that, but the question sensible folk have to ask is "why"?  Anyone involved in sports learns you can't just fixate on a couple plays and say "that lost the game".

If you do want to fixate on a couple plays, how about Haushmoney's missed XP and missed FG?  We lost by 4 points.  There's 4 points right there.

Or how about the muffed punt receive by McKenzie that gave Miami the ball deep in Bills territory and led directly to the 2nd Miami TD?  7 points.

 

The reason W and L aren't individual stats is for good reason.  There's always plenty of credit and plenty of blame to go around after each, and this is no exception.

 

2 hours ago, BILLS55 said:

Its an Opinion, it's neither good or bad. That's why it's called an opinion

 

What's up with this stuff?  Opinions are called opinions because they're the conclusions a person arrives at based on their individual knowledge and interpretation of the facts.  That doesn't mean all opinions are equal in merit, or deserve equal weight.  If an opinion is out of sync with knowledge and facts, it can indeed be a bad opinion.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, 1963Billsfan7 said:

He is not a running QB. They had one designed run for him in the Dolphins game.  He is going back to pass and then scrambling. Like Rogers does. Like Steve Young and Fran Tarkington did in their careers. Allen is a cross between Steve Young and big ben. all Qb’s make mistakes they do stupid stuff, make bad throws, miss the open receivers. Not see the open receivers Ect, Ect. What he showed yesterday is he is a leader he took the bull by the horns at the end of the game starting on his own 10 yard line. He lead them and willed them down the field. He has skills you can not teach or find. So I say get on board and stop complaing. Will he ever be a 70 percent thrower probably not. but I can see him getting to 65 percent. Which would be higher then Jim Kelly. So let him play and develop. He needs a complete off season OTA’s, full training camp with all 1st team reps and a roster remake on offense. Things will slow down, concepts will start to take hold. I can only imagine what this kid becomes if he stays healthy. He’s got the look and attitude of a winner and leader. 

I like the Young-Big Ben hybrid suggestion. You're arguing with a troll, however. He doesn't want to get on board. He wants to make everyone feel bad so he can feel good.

[Zerovoltz]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Please stop with the Tebow stuff.

 

You've got a point about improving QB accuracy not being a given, but rather something relatively rare and difficult. 

 

But no one thought Tebow could pass.  His whole passing motion was crap from the start, and known to be crap from the start.  No one lined up at the Combine to ooh and ahh over his throws.  He never made the kind of passes Allen makes sometimes that snap your head around and drop your jaw.  Stop with the Tebow stuff, it's simply an inapt comparison. 

 

As for "Baby Hoodie" coaching him, that counts as a positive when "Baby Hoodie" shows he can develop a QB.  So far his track record is not good.  Sam Bradford, who can actually pass and play QB when healthy, looked totally incompetent with McDaniels as OC.  53.6% completion percentage and 6 TD, 6 INT in 10 games.  Magically, his completion percentage and TD/INT were better his rookie season under Shurmer and magically improved the following year under Schottenheimer.  Huh.

 

The  "Lamar Jackson would have been all time greats" is also wierd - he's a rookie, like Allen.  He might improve, he might not.  He might be an all time great, he might not.  But talking about what he "would have been" when he's still a rookie is - agenda-ish, I'll just say that.

 

This is fair.  Clearly I am not doing a good job of making my argument.  The Tebow comparison I tried to make wasn’t about Allen and Tebow being the same guy, but was an attempt to make my original and only point here wich is that Accuracy way more often than not, doesn’t just happen, many very good prospects, with good coaching often fail to improve this vital skill.  My whole point is that many many posters here, when talking about Allen, are dismissive of his lack of accuracy and explain it away like it’s simply a matter of time and is bound to happen.  If there were several past cases I’d this happening then it would be something to be assumed and dismissive about.  The past suggests that in fact accuracy is very difficult to improve and for a good many humans, is something you are born with or not.  I am not taking anything away from the raw prospect he is.  He is a tremendous prospect.  I would be excited at this point if I were a bulls fan to see if he can get better because he shows so much of what you want a QB to be.  That said it is not a given he’ll ever be consistently accurate enough to be a franchise type QB and any analysis that involves just assuming some linear improvement.  

 

The accuracy is is a concern and a problem.  It was on draft day and it still is.  

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

The accuracy is is a concern and a problem.  It was on draft day and it still is.  

 

Important, if true, which it's not.

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Zerovotlz said:

 

This is fair.  Clearly I am not doing a good job of making my argument.  The Tebow comparison I tried to make wasn’t about Allen and Tebow being the same guy, but was an attempt to make my original and only point here wich is that Accuracy way more often than not, doesn’t just happen, many very good prospects, with good coaching often fail to improve this vital skill.  My whole point is that many many posters here, when talking about Allen, are dismissive of his lack of accuracy and explain it away like it’s simply a matter of time and is bound to happen.  If there were several past cases I’d this happening then it would be something to be assumed and dismissive about.  The past suggests that in fact accuracy is very difficult to improve and for a good many humans, is something you are born with or not.  I am not taking anything away from the raw prospect he is.  He is a tremendous prospect.  I would be excited at this point if I were a bulls fan to see if he can get better because he shows so much of what you want a QB to be.  That said it is not a given he’ll ever be consistently accurate enough to be a franchise type QB and any analysis that involves just assuming some linear improvement.  

 

The accuracy is is a concern and a problem.  It was on draft day and it still is.  

You don't understand the concept of accuracy.  Go look at what I posted in the thread about whether passing is like shooting free throws.

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Important, if true, which it's not.

His completion percentage is 52.9.

 

I would say he must get better if he wants to be a top QB. 

[Mr. ChumChums]

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Important, if true, which it's not.

People keep pointing to completion % as the end-all be-all for "accuracy". However, most don't look at the fact that Allen this season has the highest air-yards per attempt of any QB... meaning he will naturally have a lower completion percentage anyways from attempting more difficult, longer throws. This was also the case in college... where he was airing it out all the time. If you look at each of his throws during the game, you can usually find a reason for most of his misses (e.g., missed read / miscommunication on the missed Zay TD, missed bomb, throwaway when a guy is hanging off his back, etc.). Not many of his misses are really because he's "inaccurate".

[oldmanfan]

Posted in another thread but also belongs here:

 

People confuse the concept of accuracy with that of precision.  The classic example of this is throwing darts at a dartboard.  Let's say you aim at the bulls eye and keep hitting the inner 10 ring.  Hit it the same spot every time.  You're very, very precise but you're not accurate.  Now, let's say you didn't hit the bulls eye but you surround it pretty closely with all your darts.  Now you're very accurate, but not precise.

 

When people critique accuracy they really are critiquing precision.  Can you stick the ball exactly in the same spot every time?  I think there are very few QB that are incredibly precise.  Most good ones are really accurate; the ball is always within the receiver's catch radius.  And ideally of course you want high precision AND high accuracy.  But that's very rare.

 

Now, can you teach accuracy?  Obviously yes or guys like Brady wouldn't go back to his coaches and work on drills every off season.  Muscle memory helps in any athletic endeavor, whether it be throwing a football or baseball, kicking a soccer ball, golf swing, shooting free throws.  As a QB it may take more as you would have to maintain that with large humans gunning for you, but it certainly can be worked on and improved

   1 hour ago,  C.Biscuit97 said: 

But it isn’t.  He literally has never been like a 55% passer his whole career.  It matters whether you think so or not.  Those 5 passes missed can be the difference between Ws and Ls.  

 

In todays nfl, if you aren’t a 60% passer, you aren’t a starting level qb.  Allen is a Rookie on a bad offense so he gets pass.  But it needs to get better. 

Math is not your strong suit.  Let's say you throw 30 passes in a game.  Complete 18 and it's 60%.  Know what 55% is?  Completing 16.5 passes.  Or 1.5 passes less a game.

 

So let's say you have everyone covered and throw one out of bounds so you don't take a sack.  Or your WR drops one or runs a bad route.  There's your difference between this supposed magical 60% vs.  55% completion percentage.  And it has absolutely nothing, as in zero, to do with accuracy.

 

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Mr. ChumChums said:

People keep pointing to completion % as the end-all be-all for "accuracy". However, most don't look at the fact that Allen this season has the highest air-yards per attempt of any QB... meaning he will naturally have a lower completion percentage anyways from attempting more difficult, longer throws. This was also the case in college... where he was airing it out all the time. If you look at each of his throws during the game, you can usually find a reason for most of his misses (e.g., missed read / miscommunication on the missed Zay TD, missed bomb, throwaway when a guy is hanging off his back, etc.). Not many of his misses are really because he's "inaccurate".

 

Yup.  Looking at completion % and ignoring the supporting cast is disingenuous at best.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing Josh work at his craft over the off-season.  As well as the Bills giving him some real weapons and blocking.

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Posted in another thread but also belongs here:

 

People confuse the concept of accuracy with that of precision.  The classic example of this is throwing darts at a dartboard.  Let's say you aim at the bulls eye and keep hitting the inner 10 ring.  Hit it the same spot every time.  You're very, very precise but you're not accurate.  Now, let's say you didn't hit the bulls eye but you surround it pretty closely with all your darts.  Now you're very accurate, but not precise.

 

When people critique accuracy they really are critiquing precision.  Can you stick the ball exactly in the same spot every time?  I think there are very few QB that are incredibly precise.  Most good ones are really accurate; the ball is always within the receiver's catch radius.  And ideally of course you want high precision AND high accuracy.  But that's very rare.

 

Now, can you teach accuracy?  Obviously yes or guys like Brady wouldn't go back to his coaches and work on drills every off season.  Muscle memory helps in any athletic endeavor, whether it be throwing a football or baseball, kicking a soccer ball, golf swing, shooting free throws.  As a QB it may take more as you would have to maintain that with large humans gunning for you, but it certainly can be worked on and improved

   1 hour ago,  C.Biscuit97 said: 

But it isn’t.  He literally has never been like a 55% passer his whole career.  It matters whether you think so or not.  Those 5 passes missed can be the difference between Ws and Ls.  

 

In todays nfl, if you aren’t a 60% passer, you aren’t a starting level qb.  Allen is a Rookie on a bad offense so he gets pass.  But it needs to get better. 

Math is not your strong suit.  Let's say you throw 30 passes in a game.  Complete 18 and it's 60%.  Know what 55% is?  Completing 16.5 passes.  Or 1.5 passes less a game.

 

So let's say you have everyone covered and throw one out of bounds so you don't take a sack.  Or your WR drops one or runs a bad route.  There's your difference between this supposed magical 60% vs.  55% completion percentage.  And it has absolutely nothing, as in zero, to do with accuracy.

 

Every single QB is going to have the same variables as far as throwing the ball away, etc. Completion pctg is a pretty good metric for determining accuracy for an NFL QB.

 

What is so controversial about saying he needs to become a more efficient passer?