Reed83HOF Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: I would error to the large side but not much past 70,000 seats. I do agree that 68k-70k is a good size...and LOL I should have said at a reasonable price point as far as tickets as well
Boatdrinks Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: I would error to the large side but not much past 70,000 seats. Nope, too many seats for the market. Part of the reason for the current welfare ticket prices.
RochesterRob Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Nope, too many seats for the market. Part of the reason for the current welfare ticket prices. This all changes with a few consecutive successful seasons. I loved Ralph but he was the single biggest reason for the underperformance at the ticket window. If the Pegula's have their people now and treat them right people will see that they are committed to winning. Ticket holders will come from 100 miles in all directions creating upward pressure on ticket prices. It's not just about winning but commitment as well. Ralph laid the egg too many times with Saban, Knox, Polian, etc. and people were just put off by that.
The Firebaugh Kid Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 14 hours ago, BuffaloBill said: Personally, I think the league and the team is crazy as the fan experience at the current stadium is fine. Its also unique. I despise the idea of a downtown stadium. You just dumped 130 million into NEF. Add some bathrooms and a retractable roof and call it good
Augie Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: $540 million to repair the structure in the upper deck at New Era? Yeah I wouldn't consider that wise move. New stadium sounds pretty much a no brainer right now. Sorry, but I skipped ahead (and of course I’ll to lazy to search the entire thread). Is the $540 for real??? That would in fact make that seem like a no brainier. That’s just the upper deck??? Yikes!
Boatdrinks Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: This all changes with a few consecutive successful seasons. I loved Ralph but he was the single biggest reason for the underperformance at the ticket window. If the Pegula's have their people now and treat them right people will see that they are committed to winning. Ticket holders will come from 100 miles in all directions creating upward pressure on ticket prices. It's not just about winning but commitment as well. Ralph laid the egg too many times with Saban, Knox, Polian, etc. and people were just put off by that. Winning is cyclical in the NFL and extremely fickle. It’s fine to base a business strategy on consistently winning in the rare instance that your team has Tom Brady under contract. Aside from that situation, you simply cannot bank on league domination. The current scenario includes a stadium with too much capacity combined with spartan amenities and no climate control. Any new stadium should drastically change that equation. Pricing power will come with a combination of fewer seats and improved amenities plus climate control to attract a deep pocket fan in the best seats that currently resides in their own living room on Sundays.
buffalobillsfootball Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 12 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said: Its also unique. I despise the idea of a downtown stadium. You just dumped 130 million into NEF. Add some bathrooms and a retractable roof and call it good Lipstick on a pig. No one is going to invest $500M on a stadium in the middle of no where.
Boatdrinks Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 13 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said: Its also unique. I despise the idea of a downtown stadium. You just dumped 130 million into NEF. Add some bathrooms and a retractable roof and call it good And the County could have done a much more drastic overhaul that was on the table at the time. A full renovation for around 550 million. Seems like chump change now, but they chose the cheaper window dressing option. So here they are. 2 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said: Lipstick on a pig. No one is going to invest $500M on a stadium in the middle of no where. Yep. That’s what the last “ improvement “ was. You still can’t make a silk purse from a sow’s ear.
jrober38 Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 3 hours ago, buffalobillsfootball said: True - Buffalo is SMALL if we only consider the population in the US but let's not forget the huge and growing population in Southern Ontario. If we could include the population south of Hamilton - the Buffalo metro is considerably MUCH larger and more competitive. There aren't many season ticket holders in Southern Ontario. There are lots of young guys who like to go down on a bus once a year and get really messed up, but not much of a fan base who would ever be willing to go to games on a weekly basis. Anyone 25 or younger never watched the Bills when they were good in the early 90s. They grew up watching other teams who were successful in the early 2000s and picked their allegiance a long time ago. Baring the Bills getting a transcendent talent who they could market to the Toronto market, the odds of Buffalo picking up many new fans from Toronto isn't very good. Most of their Toronto fans are 35+ and settling down with families and not looking to go to Buffalo 8 times a year. 1
May Day 10 Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Winning is cyclical in the NFL and extremely fickle. It’s fine to base a business strategy on consistently winning in the rare instance that your team has Tom Brady under contract. Aside from that situation, you simply cannot bank on league domination. The current scenario includes a stadium with too much capacity combined with spartan amenities and no climate control. Any new stadium should drastically change that equation. Pricing power will come with a combination of fewer seats and improved amenities plus climate control to attract a deep pocket fan in the best seats that currently resides in their own living room on Sundays. It hasnt been cyclical here, which has been the problem. It has been pretty much 20 years of not being relevant/competitive, and not hosting a playoff game in 22 years. There are adults approaching 30 years old who have no memory of a home playoff game. Other than 2 hot starts that everyone deep-down knew were fluky, the last 6 games of 2004 where they played the bottom 5 teams in the NFL consecutively, and a late season push where they kind of stole a last wildcard spot by virtue of another team's miracle play, there has been nothing. Give us one season where the Bills have a 7-2 start that turns into a 11-5 season, a Division title and a home playoff game (or even a bye), leading into another and tickets would be near impossible to come by without paying well above face value. The relevancy would sustain them throughout a few off years. Much like the Sabres' runs of 05-07. Struggling and cheap ticket sales become the hottest ticket in town. Tickets undervalued, large waiting list, and it sustained them while they increased prices steadily. If the Bills get relevant, it would be huge as there is a generation of fans who have increasing buying power and free time who have no idea what its like. On the flip side, there are adults in New England who know nothing other than NFL games arent really important until the Conference Championship game. Edited November 28, 2018 by May Day 10
RochesterRob Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Winning is cyclical in the NFL and extremely fickle. It’s fine to base a business strategy on consistently winning in the rare instance that your team has Tom Brady under contract. Aside from that situation, you simply cannot bank on league domination. The current scenario includes a stadium with too much capacity combined with spartan amenities and no climate control. Any new stadium should drastically change that equation. Pricing power will come with a combination of fewer seats and improved amenities plus climate control to attract a deep pocket fan in the best seats that currently resides in their own living room on Sundays. I think that most people understand that winning is cyclical. They don't want to see a partially built house in terms of a team such as when Ralph refused to complete his 1970's team or allow Polian to go get Keith Jackson from the Eagles or Ray Childress from the Oliers during the SB era. When rebuilding in OP got to be an issue people realized that Ralph was never going to change and were only going to invest only so much themselves during the season. As far as Brady goes the minute you bank on him for things such as stadium is when he has a career ending injury or father time catches him early on. People have been so spoiled by the current regime in NE that when they fall on hard times people will stay home. It happened with the Dolphins post Marino-Shula, The Raiders, and down the line. A long stretch of greatness is fine but there is a price to be paid in that people don't readily take to disappointment after those times so attendance slumps disproportionately.
Boatdrinks Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, jrober38 said: There aren't many season ticket holders in Southern Ontario. There are lots of young guys who like to go down on a bus once a year and get really messed up, but not much of a fan base who would ever be willing to go to games on a weekly basis. Anyone 25 or younger never watched the Bills when they were good in the early 90s. They grew up watching other teams who were successful in the early 2000s and picked their allegiance a long time ago. Baring the Bills getting a transcendent talent who they could market to the Toronto market, the odds of Buffalo picking up many new fans from Toronto isn't very good. Most of their Toronto fans are 35+ and settling down with families and not looking to go to Buffalo 8 times a year. The Bills claim that s substantial portion of their season ticket base comes from southern Ontario and Rochester.
May Day 10 Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: I think that most people understand that winning is cyclical. They don't want to see a partially built house in terms of a team such as when Ralph refused to complete his 1970's team or allow Polian to go get Keith Jackson from the Eagles or Ray Childress from the Oliers during the SB era. When rebuilding in OP got to be an issue people realized that Ralph was never going to change and were only going to invest only so much themselves during the season. As far as Brady goes the minute you bank on him for things such as stadium is when he has a career ending injury or father time catches him early on. People have been so spoiled by the current regime in NE that when they fall on hard times people will stay home. It happened with the Dolphins post Marino-Shula, The Raiders, and down the line. A long stretch of greatness is fine but there is a price to be paid in that people don't readily take to disappointment after those times so attendance slumps disproportionately. This is a point I like to make from time to time. I always look at the Detroit Red Wings and Atlanta Braves. I believe we even suffered a bit from it in the mid 90s, but that was a different time before internet ticket sales, social media, and such You need to feel deprivation to some point and the "cycle" is a good thing. Wait until the Sabres or Bills host a playoff game. It will be a wild scene Edited November 28, 2018 by May Day 10
jrober38 Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: Now that you have owners committed to Buffalo for the long term, it would be the time to think bold strategies. Here is what I'd be presenting to governments on both sides of the border: I would ask for NYS and Ontario to pony up money not just for a stadium, but for design and development of rapid transit systems connecting downtown Buffalo (including the Southtowns), Toronto, and Niagara Falls. The Niagara Frontier region could be turned into one huge tourist mecca, both in warmer and colder months. Let's say you have a long weekend in September and you could get around to each of these areas within 30 minutes by rapid rail. You come in on a Friday, maybe take the rail up to the Falls and experience that. Stay the night there, then rapid rail to spend Saturday in Toronto, take in a show, do some shopping, see the Metro Zoo or Science Center, Yonge Street, and such. Maybe go to Niagara on the Lake (my daughter is a performer, and she tells me that's a highly sought gig). Get on the rapid rail and come to downtown Buffalo for a concert that night and get dinner or wings. Sunday you're at the Bills game and rapid transit to the airport and out. Now let's say it's February. Pretty similar, but maybe you rail down to the Southtowns for skiing or snow mobiling or such. Go to a Sabres game instead of the Bills. Maybe take in the Albright-Know, or check out some of the famous architecture in Buffalo. The one thing I'd do different than putting a stadium in downtown would be to gut a lot of Niagara Falls downtown and put the stadium there, with overlooks of the Falls. But I alos get focusing every thing downtown. Do this right, and the entire region could become a real destination and bring loads of cash to the area as a whole. This is well intentioned but Ontario is dead broke. They're not giving any money to support a sports franchise in a different country. The economics behind dumping piles of money into a sport that plays 10 games a year has never made any sense. Toronto is an international city that draws tourists from all over the world. Connecting it to WNY, and a market that probably doesn't send many people to visit and installing services that will cost significant cost in upkeep and wages for the people running the transit systems seems like a proposition that will lose a ton of money for the province. Buffalo needs to figure out its stadium on its own. Figure out how to build a 65,000 seat stadium right downtown with a roof that can be used 12 months a year, and then figure out how to get 20 events in their each year. Anything more than that isn't happening.
RochesterRob Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: The Bills claim that s substantial portion of their season ticket base comes from southern Ontario and Rochester. It's not just a claim but they do get sales in those areas and other areas as well. People beating the Erie County drum in that no other support is needed are delusional in that the NFL would have never signed off on the Pegula's to buy a team to keep it in a weak small (1.1 million) market. The Pegula's are expected to grow the fanbase.
jrober38 Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: The Bills claim that s substantial portion of their season ticket base comes from southern Ontario and Rochester. I don't think this is true. Past estimates during the Bills in Toronto Series (which was largely considered a huge failure) pegged the number of fans at Bills games as roughly 15%. I never saw this figure attached to the number of season ticket holders in Southern Ontario. I think that's just ticket sales, which includes single game purchases. So for a sell out, the Bills probably get about 10,000 Canadians per game, which seems right. The issue is that many of these Canadians are fans of the other team. My family has season tickets in the lower bowl near the goal line on the oppositions bench side of the field. Our section is always packed with Canadian away fans who come down to watch their team play against the Bills. Almost all of the New England fans in our section when we play the Pats are from Southern Ontario. My family has had seasons to almost 30 years. Since around 2000, I haven't met a single Canadian who has them as well. You get tons of people who like going down with a big group of friends or on a bus in November and December when the tickets are cheap, but otherwise there aren't many people who are going down to support the Bills. It's essentially just a spectacle where you get to watch drunk people smash themselves through tables and act like morons, with a football game following the tailgate. Of the 10,000 Canadians going to each home game, my guess is about half of them are Bills fans. Maybe less. The Bills are mostly just a punch line up here because they've been so bad for so long. Edited November 28, 2018 by jrober38 1
RochesterRob Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, jrober38 said: This is well intentioned but Ontario is dead broke. They're not giving any money to support a sports franchise in a different country. The economics behind dumping piles of money into a sport that plays 10 games a year has never made any sense. Toronto is an international city that draws tourists from all over the world. Connecting it to WNY, and a market that probably doesn't send many people to visit and installing services that will cost significant cost in upkeep and wages for the people running the transit systems seems like a proposition that will lose a ton of money for the province. Buffalo needs to figure out its stadium on its own. Figure out how to build a 65,000 seat stadium right downtown with a roof that can be used 12 months a year, and then figure out how to get 20 events in their each year. Anything more than that isn't happening. People here should be glad that Ontario has been broke as that prevented Rogers from getting the palace he needed to place a team. Our Bills may have wound up in Toronto as a result.
buffalobillsfootball Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 15 minutes ago, May Day 10 said: It hasnt been cyclical here, which has been the problem. It has been pretty much 20 years of not being relevant/competitive, and not hosting a playoff game in 22 years. Other than 2 hot starts that everyone deep-down knew were fluky, the last 6 games of 2004 where they played the bottom 5 teams in the NFL consecutively, and a late season push where they kind of stole a last wildcard spot by virtue of another team's miracle play, there has been nothing. Give us one season where the Bills have a 7-2 start that turns into a 11-5 season, a Division title and a home playoff game (or even a bye), leading into another and tickets would be near impossible to come by without paying well above face value. The relevancy would sustain them throughout a few off years. Much like the Sabres' runs of 05-07. Struggling and cheap ticket sales become the hottest ticket in town. Tickets undervalued, large waiting list, and it sustained them while they increased prices steadily. WIN WIN WIN Winning solves everything... and yes, Canadians will come to games for a quality product.
Mr. WEO Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 I'm going to save the Pegulas a boatload on this "study" . Here it is: if you're paying, it's feasible. 2
jrober38 Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, RochesterRob said: People here should be glad that Ontario has been broke as that prevented Rogers from getting the palace he needed to place a team. Our Bills may have wound up in Toronto as a result. Sure. Canada as a whole has next to no history of publicly funding stadiums. The politics of it are way too messy and it's not something politicians can support if they plan on keeping their jobs. Toronto is never going to be able to build a world class stadium, unless they make an ambitious play to go after the Summer Olympics with the hope that the federal government would pour money into it. Without a unifying event as the reason for building a stadium, there's no way the public can fund a new stadium that would only cater to the "elites" in Toronto.
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