billsfan1959 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, simpleman said: Just because a player is drafted so high, and costs an obscene amount of draft and player capital to possibly be a franchise QB, does not automatically make him a franchise QB. He was admittedly considered a project QB by the team. And according to the "process" was suppose to sit and learn, practice and keep learning more and more until he was actually "ready" to start. Because of the team's mismanagement he was started much earlier because Peterman crashed and burned in a historically bad way. There was no "Plan B". They were forced to start him. Not because he was suddenly ready, or he "earned" the start by his astounding progress. He showed occasional flashes, but still looked exactly like the raw rookie he was when he was drafted. His faults were not corrected and he did not show great progress in his starts. Maybe he can be a franchise QB in time. But maybe he will never be. Throwing a QB into the game before he is ready is not in any way historically proven to make him better. More starts before he is truly ready does not magically make him better. More polishing does not automatically make everything shinier. If he is not ready to shine yet, he will not shine no matter how many times you polish him. He needs to be ready first. No matter how badly you want him to be your savior, no matter how desperately McBeane wants him to be their savior does not make him THE savior. The fact is that Barkley made the Bills offense look the best they have in years in his first game with the Bills, with minimal practice and preparation. They just clicked. Allen did not do that. There are plenty of games left this year to give the Bills and Barkley another game to see if it was just a fluke, or if it was real chemistry. If Allen truly is the true savior everyone wants to believe he is, one less game among many in an otherwise meaningless season will not suddenly evaporate his savior-hood. If you truly are a believer in "the process" that a player earns his starts by his actions and his play, how has Barkley not earned the right to show whether his play with this Bills team in a live game that counts was just a fluke, or that he actually has the chemistry and the skills to continue to start and win? You judge Allen based on 20 quarters of play and 139 attempts at the beginning of the season, yet somehow ignore Barkley's entire NFL history in wondering if he has "the skills to start and win." Amazing how four teams in six years have missed the obviousness of Barkley's potential.
simpleman Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: You judge Allen based on 20 quarters of play and 139 attempts at the beginning of the season, yet somehow ignore Barkley's entire NFL history in wondering if he has "the skills to start and win." Amazing how four teams in six years have missed the obviousness of Barkley's potential. Let us compare apples to apples. Which player has played better in their NFL starting history and their history with this Bills team? How do you know Barkley will not get better with more time and experience with this Bills team, or that Allen will get better and not already is at his ceiling. You don't, and neither do I. Just because you want it to happen does not magically make it happen. Why not try it and see? Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost 2018 Buffalo Bills 6 5 75 139 54.0 832 6.0 2 5 21 167 61.8 35 155 4.4 3 4 1 2018 Buffalo Bills 1 1 15 25 60.0 232 9.3 2 0 1 8 117.4 3 -2 -0.7 0 -- -- 2016 Chicago Bears 7 6 129 216 59.7 1,611 7.5 8 14 6 43 68.3 7 2 0.3 0 4 2 Edited November 19, 2018 by simpleman
billsfan1959 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, simpleman said: Let us compare apples to apples. Which player has played better in their NFL starting history and their history with this Bills team? How do you know Barkley will not get better with more time and experience with this Bills team, or that Allen will get better and not already is at his ceiling. You don't, and neither do I. Just because you want it to happen does not magically make it happen. Why not try it and see? Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost 2018 Buffalo Bills 6 5 75 139 54.0 832 6.0 2 5 21 167 61.8 35 155 4.4 3 4 1 2018 Buffalo Bills 1 1 15 25 60.0 232 9.3 2 0 1 8 117.4 3 -2 -0.7 0 -- -- 2016 Chicago Bears 7 6 129 216 59.7 1,611 7.5 8 14 6 43 68.3 7 2 0.3 0 4 2 Barkley's stats in 2016 were after he had been in the league for FOUR years and they were AWFUL. Then you add in a game from a 6 year veteran against a team, in the New York Jets, who couldn't have looked less interested in playing and EVERYTHING the Bills did offensively worked. And Barkley STILL should have been intercepted at least two times in that game. And you compare that to the stats of a rookie after 20 quarters of football? Apples to Apples? Really? Thank God the front office and coaching staff of this team has better sense
John in Jax Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 20 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Thank God the front office and coaching staff of this team has better sense Now that's about the funniest thing I've read on this board in a long time. It ain't brain surgery or rocket science out there. This front office and coaching staff are a joke. Clap, clap, clap. LOL
26CornerBlitz Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 1 hour ago, simpleman said: Just because a player is drafted so high, and costs an obscene amount of draft and player capital to possibly be a franchise QB, does not automatically make him a franchise QB. He was admittedly considered a project QB by the team. And according to the "process" was suppose to sit and learn, practice and keep learning more and more until he was actually "ready" to start. Because of the team's mismanagement he was started much earlier because Peterman crashed and burned in a historically bad way. There was no "Plan B". They were forced to start him. Not because he was suddenly ready, or he "earned" the start by his astounding progress. He showed occasional flashes, but still looked exactly like the raw rookie he was when he was drafted. His faults were not corrected and he did not show great progress in his starts. Maybe he can be a franchise QB in time. But maybe he will never be. Throwing a QB into the game before he is ready is not in any way historically proven to make him better. More starts before he is truly ready does not magically make him better. More polishing does not automatically make everything shinier. If he is not ready to shine yet, he will not shine no matter how many times you polish him. He needs to be ready first. No matter how badly you want him to be your savior, no matter how desperately McBeane wants him to be their savior does not make him THE savior. The fact is that Barkley made the Bills offense look the best they have in years in his first game with the Bills, with minimal practice and preparation. They just clicked. Allen did not do that. There are plenty of games left this year to give the Bills and Barkley another game to see if it was just a fluke, or if it was real chemistry. If Allen truly is the true savior everyone wants to believe he is, one less game among many in an otherwise meaningless season will not suddenly evaporate his savior-hood. If you truly are a believer in "the process" that a player earns his starts by his actions and his play, how has Barkley not earned the right to show whether his play with this Bills team in a live game that counts was just a fluke, or that he actually has the chemistry and the skills to continue to start and win? Barkley hasn't "earned" a thing as a guy who walked in off the street a few weeks ago and he isn't the future of the franchise as a career fringe backup who was out of football in 2017. He played a pretty good game against the Jets and people like you are losing their minds as if he played at a lights out Drew Brees level. Allen is the future and he needs game experience with no better time than the remainder of this 2018 season with the team going nowhere at 3-7. That's what should happen and it's going to as the youth movement on the team continues with 1st and 2nd year players taking on prominent roles toward 2019 and beyond. 2
simpleman Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Barkley's stats in 2016 were after he had been in the league for FOUR years and they were AWFUL. Then you add in a game from a 6 year veteran against a team, in the New York Jets, who couldn't have looked less interested in playing and EVERYTHING the Bills did offensively worked. And Barkley STILL should have been intercepted at least two times in that game. And you compare that to the stats of a rookie after 20 quarters of football? Apples to Apples? Really? Thank God the front office and coaching staff of this team has better sense Barkley has only started 2 more games or 8 more quarters than Allen by your math. And Chicago was a very bad 3-13 team, it was not just the games when Barkley started that they were bad. Judge the players by the games they start and the statistics they actually have. That is apples to apples as close as we can get.
billsfan1959 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, John in Jax said: Now that's about the funniest thing I've read on this board in a long time. It ain't brain surgery or rocket science out there. This front office and coaching staff are a joke. Clap, clap, clap. LOL Right. It isn't brain surgery or rocket science. It is pretty clear Barkley is not the future of this team. And yes, the front office and coaching staff have better sense than to waste time assessing a career backup, at best. 3 minutes ago, simpleman said: Barkley has only started 2 more games or 8 more quarters than Allen by your math. And Chicago was a very bad 3-13 team, it was not just the games when Barkley started that they were bad. Judge the players by the games they start and the statistics they actually have. That is apples to apples as close as we can get. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of football would see what utter nonsense this is.
simpleman Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 (edited) Very few here have said that Barkley has proven to be a Franchise QB. But the figures also don't show that Allen has proven to be any better than Barkley, or that he is has a better chance of being a Franchise QB. I didn't just profess a faith, I showed the figures and statistics and didn't profess any particular faith. Your faith and hope do not matter to anyone but yourself, nor will not make it so in the harsh reality of the real world of pro football. Isn't it logical to give them both chance to prove themselves. Are you afraid to let the reality of playing the games to find out for sure because of your fear it will prove your faith to unfounded? I just want an exciting, winning team. I really don't care if either Allen, Barkley, or someone else is the QB that can make that happen. I don't have a horse in the QB race, or have the prejudices for or against any of the horses. I just want to have it happen. Edited November 19, 2018 by simpleman
26CornerBlitz Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, simpleman said: Very few here have said that Barkley has proven to be a Franchise QB. But the figures also don't show that Allen has proven to be any better than Barkley, or that he is has a better chance of being a Franchise QB. I didn't just profess a faith, I showed the figures and statistics and didn't profess any particular faith. Your faith and hope do not matter to anyone but yourself, nor will not make it so in the harsh reality of the real world of pro football. Isn't it logical to give them both chance to prove themselves. Are you afraid to let the reality of playing the games to find out for sure in the fear it will prove your faith to unfounded? I just want an exciting, winning team. I really don't care if either Allen, Barkley, or someone else is the QB that can make that happen. I don't have a horse in the QB race, or have the prejudices for or against any of the horses. I just want to have it happen. No it isn't because player evaluations are just about looking at statistics with so much more that factors into the consideration.
Captain Hindsight Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 Why does everyone seem to want to keep the Ferrari in the garage? Everyone just assumes Allen will come out ad struggle. Maybe he will. What if he comes out and plays well? What if he puts up 30 points against Jacksonville? What if he wins 4 games in a row? If The Bills started Barkley and he plays like Barkley has in recent years, the Bills still wont make the playoffs and the Bills will be no closer to knowing if Allen is a cornerstone to build around If healthy, you play Allen. There is no reason not too other than people being afraid he wont be good. 1
billsfan1959 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said: Why does everyone seem to want to keep the Ferrari in the garage? Everyone just assumes Allen will come out ad struggle. Maybe he will. What if he comes out and plays well? What if he puts up 30 points against Jacksonville? What if he wins 4 games in a row? If The Bills started Barkley and he plays like Barkley has in recent years, the Bills still wont make the playoffs and the Bills will be no closer to knowing if Allen is a cornerstone to build around If healthy, you play Allen. There is no reason not too other than people being afraid he wont be good. The desire to start a six-year, journeyman, career backup on a 3-7 team to "see what he can do," or with some idea that he will defy his own history and, somehow, lead this team on a 7 game winning streak to, maybe, put themselves in the position of squeaking into the playoffs - rather than giving game experience to the guy who actually has the potential to be a franchise QB, and an opportunity for the coaching staff to evaluate him in game situations over the remainder of this season? That might be the very definition of insanity.
teef Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 people really think that barkley is suddenly something? well then...
Chandler#81 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 This thread is exhibit A for why I’ve taken a break from here. I thought it was the horrendous way we were losing/kept plugging in Peterman/Cap Hell suffering/McD’s kinky love for ex-Panthers, if not a combination. But this -and many threads on page 1 recently, is at the heart of my disillusionment, akin to empty headed, grade school zombie mentality. Yeah, I’m old. I’ve seen or heard every Bills play from the beginning, but I pine for the quality football discussions we were once known for here.. Get off my lawn!? had to get that that off my chest.. 2
billsredneck1 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 17 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: And I hope Mariota’s reinjuring of the same elbow today that he ALSO injured early this season with a UCL injury gives McDermott some pause before just throwing Allen back in. well that may give him an out with starting allen if there is even 1% of concern.
zow2 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 I do see the importance of starting Allen. Unfortunately there's no playoff chase so McD has real live games to evaluate Allen which is critical. HOWEVER, was it critical for Pat Mahomes to get a bunch of games last season? Sure doesn't look like it. On the flip side, McD is trying to win games, maintain team morale and put his club in the best position to get victories. What if the Bills are down to the Jags 13-3 at halftime this weekend and mainly because the QB is doing absolutely nothing (he's missing receivers high and low, running himself into sacks, etc..). The fans boo them off the field.. It's a tough call for the coach when you know a guy on the sidelines has more experience & confidence...and might be able to see things and move the club better. So yes, I'm ok with Allen starting...but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Bills announce late in the week that Josh is being rested one more week and that "he's real close, just not quite yet"..
buffaloboyinATL Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 A backup who does a great job when called upon should be celebrated for being a good backup, not automatically elevated to the starter role. When healthy, Allen must start. The Bills need to know what they have in him and get him as much experience as soon as possible.
26TrapDraw Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 On 11/17/2018 at 12:08 PM, 26CornerBlitz said: Starting Barkley would be a complete waste of time. It's the same kind of shortsightedness that has held the franchise back for far too long and I am happy to see that they didn't fall into this trap sitting at 3-7. Exactly this . Division 3 Coe College could of hung a half a thowy worth of offense on this completely uninspired Jets team who seem to have given up on their coach and season . The focus should absolutely be on Allen's development along with the other youngsters going into the last 6. There is plenty to watch and be excited about going into the offseason and 2019 if some of these young players ( Teller, Josh Allen McKenzie, Zay Jones, Taron Johnson Phillips etc.) Keep developing next year will show a much improved team with free agent additions and the draft. I can actually see the vision now that McBeane is trying to put together. Excited about the potential this team has for once.
Alphadawg7 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 On 11/17/2018 at 12:07 PM, BadLandsMeanie said: This is a weakness for McDermott that shows up repeatedly. He should start Barkely because the Bills kicked butt behind Barkely. It is that simple. Barkely should be able to prove it was either a fluke, or not. The team deserves that. Instead they will start Allen for no other reason other than they drafted him. How is the team supposed to be positive and stoked when they know they finally had a tremendous victory and in response the coaches pulled the starting QB? What if Allen does the most likely thing, and struggles? What if it is so bad they have to pull him? Then he is behind the 8 ball if you ask me. They are risking that for no good enough reason. This staff paints themselves into corners where the only possible non-disaster outcome is that their plan goes exactly the way they envision. So lets hope Allen does great because if he doesn't we will have a better playing QB sitting on the bench just because the coach says so. And the team and us fans will never know for sure if Barkley was a fluke or not. If Barkely starts and does great, then there is no down side. If he starts and flops, then we have Allen and we put him in next time. The only down side this way is that Allen loses a game of practice. If Allen starts and does great it will be the first time, and it will be great. But it is unlikely. And if he starts and flops badly then you have all kinds of trouble. The decision is easy and as usual with the QB spot the coaching staff made the wrong one. There is so much wrong with this post that I don’t even know where to begin. So I won’t.
KW95 - JA17 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 How long does it take to know a QB is good or not? This thing about planning for 2019 and the future is 50/50 at best. Josh Allen has looked terrible. Do we play him for 6 more weeks and then next year the whole year? If the light doesn't pop, when do you pull the plug? I dont trust the bills Franchise to know the answer. however, they should draft another QB is Allen is terrible for the next 6 games.
zow2 Posted November 19, 2018 Posted November 19, 2018 41 minutes ago, KW95 said: How long does it take to know a QB is good or not? This thing about planning for 2019 and the future is 50/50 at best. Josh Allen has looked terrible. Do we play him for 6 more weeks and then next year the whole year? If the light doesn't pop, when do you pull the plug? I dont trust the bills Franchise to know the answer. however, they should draft another QB is Allen is terrible for the next 6 games. I always feel like with a high draft choice (QB) he gets two full seasons to prove it. So yes, if he does not pan out, the club loses for 2 years. I thought Trubisky sucked last year, but this year it's starting to click. he doesn't make the right decisions 100% of the time (none of them do), but he's pretty good and should only get better. It gets complicated if/when the backup comes in and makes the offense click better than the high draft pick. But usually that backup has a known ceiling, and it's not as high as the potential ceiling for the young guy.
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