Amazon HQ2 Decision - NYC & VA

[IDBillzFan]

Starting to see details released on Amazon picking NYC and VA for HQ2.

 

The tax incentives have people a little nuts, as does word that the Commonwealth will give Amazon a heads up on any FOIA requests.

 

Incentives aside, I find it interesting that Amazon picked places with really high costs of living. 

 

Interested in PPP take on this.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Government in bed with big corporations? Who'da thunk it?

 

Babylon's gotta be financed somehow.

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

[keepthefaith]

8 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

Starting to see details released on Amazon picking NYC and VA for HQ2.

 

The tax incentives have people a little nuts, as does word that the Commonwealth will give Amazon a heads up on any FOIA requests.

 

Incentives aside, I find it interesting that Amazon picked places with really high costs of living. 

 

Interested in PPP take on this.

 

 

 

Heck you couldn't put it in a more sensible place cost-wise like Nashville and ask people in Tennessee to buy-in to their left coast culture. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, LABillzFan said:

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm generally anti-tax-breaks for corporate relocation. They rarely, if ever pay for themselves and are simply a vehicle for billionaires to make more billions.

 

[snafu]

If anyone remembers what LIC was seven years ago compared to what it is now, they could tell you that LIC didn't really need Amazon to come to town.  I'm not sniffing at it, mind you.  It solidifies the conversion of that part of Queens from useless wasteland to prime real estate.  One of my best friends is on the Board of the Queens Chamber of Commerce and I guaranty he's doing backflips today.  My only gripe is that Amazon could probably have gone to Newark and done more benefit to a city that needs it more.

 

Any/every site was going to offer tax incentives for Amazon to go there, so complaining about it really overlooks the reality of the situation.  Ocasio-Cortez should know that NYC has its own income tax, and NYS has its commuter tax. She should be complaining that the money gets spent right, not saying that the community is "outraged".  I'm just glad that LIC isn't in Queens Congressional District 14.  She'd probably find a way to ***** it up.  Now if the Mayor would just lay off...

 

 

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

14 minutes ago, snafu said:

If anyone remembers what LIC was seven years ago compared to what it is now, they could tell you that LIC didn't really need Amazon to come to town.  I'm not sniffing at it, mind you.  It solidifies the conversion of that part of Queens from useless wasteland to prime real estate. 

 

I haven't been near LIC in years, so I ask this honestly: is there not a fear of displacing people there who ultimately won't be able to afford the area once Amazon moves in?

[keepthefaith]

43 minutes ago, snafu said:

  Ocasio-Cortez should know that NYC has its own income tax, and NYS has its commuter tax.

 

[snafu]

9 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

I haven't been near LIC in years, so I ask this honestly: is there not a fear of displacing people there who ultimately won't be able to afford the area once Amazon moves in?

 

Of all the neighborhoods in the City, LIC is the only one that safely hasn't displaced more than a handful of residents.  Most of the new buildings were constructed on old warehouse/manufacturing sites.  There are at least ten new high-rise buildings of mixed-use.  In fact, these went up so fast, that there's probably not currently enough small or medium commercial capacity to serve all the newer residents. 

 

Also, the City has incentivized developers to include low-income units in all new construction -- used to be a minimum of 20%, now it is more like 40% -- but it is a convoluted formula -- which makes things easier to circumvent.  The basic premise is that developers get to build more regular/high-income floor area as a tradeoff.  I've got my issues with how effective that is (probably deserves its own thread), but it doesn't hurt.  The City's 10-year plan is here 

http://www.nyc.gov/html/housing/assets/downloads/pdf/housing_plan.pdf

 

A lot of pie in the sky and mixed results so far.  Overall, the City is unaffordable to most, and becoming moreso.  However, the market for apartment rentals has leveled off, and even come down in parts of the city (even Manhattan).  Most of the time, the market takes care of itself, but really for regular people, and not low-income, and kids just starting out.  Landlords have to provide amenities for units that they used to be able to rent from a list of people.

 

 

 

 

[BeginnersMind]

4 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

 

Incentives aside, I find it interesting that Amazon picked places with really high costs of living. 

 

 

 

Attractive places though for the tech and white collar top talent Amazon wants to hire. I always thought it would be Northern Va but I'm happy that NYC got a slice too. It's good for the East Coast to get some big high tech investment. 

 

As far as the crazy tax incentives, it is indeed nuts. I've read that the incentives are often not worth it but I haven't seen enough data to reach a conclusion on that and it doesn't seem right in this case. Adding 25000 jobs averaging 150K each is ~4B in just personal income a year. The revenue spun off by those jobs and the work spun off into other businesses by proximity to those jobs would seem, on a back of a napkin, to easily make up for 2B in tax incentives over not too long of a time.  

 

Most cities would fall over themselves to get a 25000 jobs generating 4B a year in income plus all the other revenue spun off. I'd be curious to see economists, and not socialist whiners like Ocasio-Cortez, put up a real numbers analysis. Seems like it will be a huge net positive if Amazon sticks around.  

Edited November 14, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[KD in CA]

3 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

 

She does indeed. Having cities/states compete for business with taxpayer dollars is a net negative for the nation. It's the same thing as the NFL trying to hold cities hostage for a new stadium under threat of moving them to LA.

[The_Dude]

3 hours ago, LABillzFan said:

We pick on Ocasio-Cortez, but she raises some valid points here in this thread.

 

 

 

No she doesn’t even though she does. NYC was gonna have to give tax breaks to work that deal. Any city was. Because NYC did think of the taxable wages that will come with the new headquarters. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

She does indeed. Having cities/states compete for business with taxpayer dollars is a net negative for the nation. It's the same thing as the NFL trying to hold cities hostage for a new stadium under threat of moving them to LA.

 

......this has been a thing since forever. 

 

Thats why you see old walmarts 1/2 mile away from old Walmart’s. Walmart comes in and gets x years of city tax breaks. X years go bye, and Walmart tells the city it wants new tax breaks, the city says no, Walmart moves 1/2 mile down the road and leaves the city with a vacant building. 

 

Theres no changing this rigged system. Everything is too greased and too many people are in on it. There’s no stopping it. You have to manage it and not let it get too out of hand. But there’s no reigning it in. 

 

Take on the military industrial complex while while you’re at it. That’s just as futile. 

[3rdnlng]

26 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

No she doesn’t even though she does. NYC was gonna have to give tax breaks to work that deal. Any city was. Because NYC did think of the taxable wages that will come with the new headquarters. 

 

 

 

......this has been a thing since forever. 

 

Thats why you see old walmarts 1/2 mile away from old Walmart’s. Walmart comes in and gets x years of city tax breaks. X years go bye, and Walmart tells the city it wants new tax breaks, the city says no, Walmart moves 1/2 mile down the road and leaves the city with a vacant building. 

 

Theres no changing this rigged system. Everything is too greased and too many people are in on it. There’s no stopping it. You have to manage it and not let it get too out of hand. But there’s no reigning it in. 

 

Take on the military industrial complex while while you’re at it. That’s just as futile. 

No, you are wrong. The reason you see Walmarts replacing Walmarts is that they decided to replace the smaller stores with super stores that sold a full line of groceries. Usually when a Walmart first comes to an area the area around it gets built up and there is seldom an opportunity to just expand. They have to move down the road where there is an new opportunity.

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, BeginnersMind said:

 

Adding 25000 jobs averaging 150K each is 

 

Dont you have to shave 105,000 off that figure to paint an accurate picture of what the amazon workers will make ? 

[BeginnersMind]

Just now, Teddy KGB said:

 

Dont you have to shave 105,000 off that figure to paint an accurate picture of what the amazon workers will make ? 

Not sure what you mean. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[Teddy KGB]

Just now, BeginnersMind said:

Not sure what you mean. 

 

The amazon employees will make 45,000 a year not 150,000 a year no ? 

[BeginnersMind]

3 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

The amazon employees will make 45,000 a year not 150,000 a year no ? 

 

The average salary of these workers is 150K/year. 

 

"...at least 25,000 new workers, making an average of what the company said would be $150,000."

 

These are high-end white collar job sites. Not warehouse jobs. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by BeginnersMind

[/dev/null]

Anyone else get the vibe that the whole HQ2 competition thing Amazon was running was a scam?  That maybe they had decided long ago where they were locating their HQ2 but saw an opportunity for some free positive PR in the candidate markets while milking Crystal City and NYC for all the extra incentives?

[boyst]

She didn't come up with those ideas. Someone else did.  No, seriously, I doubt that idiot had those ideas. 

[Azalin]

2 hours ago, /dev/null said:

Anyone else get the vibe that the whole HQ2 competition thing Amazon was running was a scam?  That maybe they had decided long ago where they were locating their HQ2 but saw an opportunity for some free positive PR in the candidate markets while milking Crystal City and NYC for all the extra incentives?

 

It's possible I suppose. Austin was one of the cities being considered before Amazon decided to split the 2nd headquarters into two separate campuses, and the city council and chamber of commerce didn't offer them any incentives. We've had so many companies relocate here in recent years that the population had already significantly outgrown the infrastructure. The last thing anyone here wants is another 50K people. We'll do that quickly enough without Amazon.

 

As far as the salaries they were talking of offering, 150-180K were the numbers they floated, so I imagine that's what they're planning to offer in NY and VA.