Coach Length To Put Program In

[Cash]

21 hours ago, corta765 said:

A lot of people have been commenting that perhaps McD and Beane should be relieved or at least one changed by seasons end. Here is a look at how long coaches have had to put their program in (for better or worse):

 

1996-97- Marv sees Kelly retire and follows suit next season after Todd Collins doesn't pan out

1998-2000 DC Wade Phillips steps in and the team trades for Rob Johnson to be the future while adding longtime vet Flutie. Without rehashing Ralph basically forced Wade's at QB hand to the point it was easier to leave then stay. During this time Jerry Butler runs the show with a pretty strong staff including AJ Smith who turned later helped turn the Chargers around with Butler. (3 years)

2001-2003 Tom Donahoe is brought in to be the new GM after Butler resigns. Donahoe at the time was highly regarded for his work in Pittsburgh and hire's hot DC candidate Greg Williams to be the new head coach. At the time it was believed Williams could bring the defense more success while helping to smooth out the QB situation. Johnson flames out but the Bills get Bledsoe from NE. Williams in the end is relieved but was able to bring his program in. (3 Years)

2003-05 Donahoe brings in Mularkey who has some relative success both never gets a chance to put together a full team due to QB controversy and mgmt change with Donahoe being replaced by Marv. (2 Years)

2006-2009 Dick Jaruon gets the longest chance of any Bills coach with over three and half years to get his team and QB with Edwards being the guy he thought could work. (3 and 1/12 years)

2010-2012 Chan Gailey gets his shot but never gets enough talent on defense nor a chance to pick a QB of his liking. EJ was after Chan by Nix/Whaley (3 years)

2013-2014 Doug Marrone chooses to leave after building a decent program 2 years in despite Manuel's flame out (2 years)

2015-2016 Rex is given a roster with a lot of talent but still chooses to remake it as his own. Taylor being brought in is a plus given prior QB problems but his defense never gets a chance to be fully established due to injury and being relieved just 2 years in (2 years)

 

Overall only Jauron and Williams ever really got a chance to put their true program and QB out there. The rest the cord was pulled before they got a chance or they left. The biggest thing with this you see is how many times the deck had to be refreshed and altered because of a new coach. I really think McD and Beane should get four years just for the fact I want to see a coach for the first time in over 2 decades to truly put his stamp on a team for better or worse.

 

I still don't want McD or Beane fired at season's end (or earlier!), although I reserve the right to change my mind if things get even worse.  I think I advocated for giving McBeane 4 years when they were brought in, and in theory, I stand by that.  In practice, there's no excuse for putting an offense on the field that's this consistently bad.  I don't think they need to make the playoffs in 2019 to save their jobs or anything, but if 2019 is as bad as 2018, they shouldn't be with the team in 2020.  I would ideally like to have some amount of hope by the end of 2018 - young players getting better, the offense scoring on its own once in a while, etc.  But there NEEDS to be something to build on next year, or it's time to move on.  I don't think giving Dick Jauron more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Gregggggo more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Jeff Fisher more time would've helped the Rams.  I don't think giving John Fox more time would've helped the Bears.  For now, I'm willing to give McBeane more time, mostly because of last year.  

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

19 hours ago, Maybe Someday said:

&$%# that, I demand satisfaction NOW!!!  McD & Beane haven't done everything exactly as I wanted them to so they need to be fired yesterday.  If the new guys don't field an elite team by week 6 of next year, fire them too.  Eventually they'll hire me and we'll go 19-0 cuz I've got all the answers. 

 

Signed,

Way too many posters on TSW

woahcool so meta!

 

another post about the negative posters complete with a misrepresentation of what people are saying.

[eball]

My first reaction to this thread was "who is Coach Length, and what program is he putting in?"

[Cash]

1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

For me this is about never having a GM with any power in the organization since Polian. They keep hiring poor GMs who will acquiesce to the owner. Whaley had zero power. Beane is a stand in to McDermott. If they want to fix it, they have to do like the Steelers. Get a good talent guy and let him build it to his liking. Leave him alone to his theory on both sides of the ball. To me this is the biggest problem going back to Ralph. You can't keep changing a good football man because he makes a bad draft pick. I think they fired Whaley too soon. They could have kept him and added Beane as President of operations. Beane is not a GM. He's never worked in talent. He didn't work in talent as a coach or scout like most GMs. Whaley had an eye for talent he was just a poor personality type and he missed on QB. I think a GM should get to miss on 2 or 3 high draft picked QBs before he's fired.

 

I agree with most of this.  Whaley is horrible at public/media relations, but clearly had an eye for evaluating pro talent.  The draft was more of a mixed bag, but not as bad as people might think - there are still a lot of his picks playing in the NFL, just not for the Bills.  If Whaley had been able to hire his own coach, who reported to Whaley rather than to the Pegulas, and actually share a vision for team-building with that coach, things might've been more successful. 

 

Going forward, all indications are that McBeane are in lockstep the way Whaley/coach never were, so that's hopefully good.  I still think it's not ideal for both coach and GM to report to the owner, though, and I don't love that our rookie coach essentially hired his own GM rather than the other way around.  If they don't work out, hopefully the Pegulas ditch both at the same time and start fresh with a GM who's actually in charge.  (And hopefully hire a good one!)  Go Bills!

[Mr. WEO]

20 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

 

Or picking better coaches, who could then pick a decent QB, might be a good idea too.

 

Most of that rogue's gallery of HCs went on to being coordinators again, or are out of the NFL.  Keeping them would have only prolonged the agony of having them.

[peterpan]

Bring back gailey and Fitz 2019!!!!

 

(I'm dead serious)

[Rigotz]

20 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

NO! FIRE EVERYONE! I'M CRANKY AND NEED INSTANT SATISFACTION.

[NoSaint]

24 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

Probably not many, but that isn't relevant to the point that 1) no franchise will be successful if they can't find some continuity and 2) people who are screaming for McD's head (some since halftime of the Baltimore game) are idiots.

 

To point 1:

 

isnt “finding continuity” actually code for “hiring a coach and system worth keeping”

 

simply keeping someone to avoid change isnt particularly good. That said, the franchise hasn’t shown much in ID’ing leaders to bring in, so who knows if they know who to ship out 

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

To point 1:

 

isnt “finding continuity” actually code for “hiring a coach and system worth keeping”

 

simply keeping someone to avoid change isnt particularly good. That said, the franchise hasn’t shown much in ID’ing leaders to bring in, so who knows if they know who to ship out 

 

Indeed.

 

It should be intuitive that "successful franchises" find good coaches, therefore "continuity" naturally follows.

 

Teams don't "find continuity"...they find good coaches or they don't. 

[Bill from NYC]

21 minutes ago, Cash said:

 

I agree with most of this.  Whaley is horrible at public/media relations, but clearly had an eye for evaluating pro talent.  The draft was more of a mixed bag, but not as bad as people might think - there are still a lot of his picks playing in the NFL, just not for the Bills.  If Whaley had been able to hire his own coach, who reported to Whaley rather than to the Pegulas, and actually share a vision for team-building with that coach, things might've been more successful. 

 

Imo Whaley had no self control. Sure, Sammy was "good." This is beyond dispute but for 2 1sts and a 4th and having no quarterback? Whaley just couldn't/wouldn't stop giving away our picks.

Sadly, Buffalo doesn't seem to be very high on the list of places where free agents want to play. For this reason we need more, not less draft choices and they need to be properly utilized. Whaley was decent at recognizing talent, but he never would have won here imo. Not with those stupid trades.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Bill from NYC

[CuddyDark]

24 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Imo Whaley had no self control. Sure, Sammy was "good." This is beyond dispute but for 2 1sts and a 4th and having no quarterback? Whaley just couldn't/wouldn't stop giving away our picks.

Sadly, Buffalo doesn't seem to be very high on the list of places where free agents want to play. For this reason we need more, not less draft choices and they need to be properly utilized. Whaley was decent at recognizing talent, but he never would have won here imo. Not with those stupid trades.

I think a worse trade is getting KB for anything more than a 7th. He's a bum. They should already know he's a bum for working with him for three years. It just goes to show Beane's talent evaluation, or his lacking in that area.

Edited November 8, 2018 by CuddyDark

[Bill from NYC]

23 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

I think a worse trade is getting KB for anything more than a 7th. He's a bum. They should already know he's a bum for working with him for three years. It just goes to show Beane's talent evaluation, or his lacking in that area.

That too was bad.

 

We will know what the story is early on in the next draft. We have dire need at every offensive position. If they draft early round secondary and neglect WRs and OL, it would not surprise me if the franchise folds.

[Cash]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Imo Whaley had no self control. Sure, Sammy was "good." This is beyond dispute but for 2 1sts and a 4th and having no quarterback? Whaley just couldn't/wouldn't stop giving away our picks.

Sadly, Buffalo doesn't seem to be very high on the list of places where free agents want to play. For this reason we need more, not less draft choices and they need to be properly utilized. Whaley was decent at recognizing talent, but he never would have won here imo. Not with those stupid trades.

 

I don't have any proof, but I'll go to my grave believing that the Watkins move was ordered from Brandon/Ralph. That move had marketing all over it. 

 

Fully agree with the rationale of WHY it was a bad move. Hated it at the time and now. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Cash

[Maybe Someday]

2 hours ago, Chemical said:

woahcool so meta!

 

another post about the negative posters complete with a misrepresentation of what people are saying.

 

Actually, as sarcastic as my post was meant to be, I believe it does represent some of the things I've seen posted on TSW over the past few weeks.

[corta765]

4 hours ago, Cash said:

 

I still don't want McD or Beane fired at season's end (or earlier!), although I reserve the right to change my mind if things get even worse.  I think I advocated for giving McBeane 4 years when they were brought in, and in theory, I stand by that.  In practice, there's no excuse for putting an offense on the field that's this consistently bad.  I don't think they need to make the playoffs in 2019 to save their jobs or anything, but if 2019 is as bad as 2018, they shouldn't be with the team in 2020.  I would ideally like to have some amount of hope by the end of 2018 - young players getting better, the offense scoring on its own once in a while, etc.  But there NEEDS to be something to build on next year, or it's time to move on.  I don't think giving Dick Jauron more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Gregggggo more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Jeff Fisher more time would've helped the Rams.  I don't think giving John Fox more time would've helped the Bears.  For now, I'm willing to give McBeane more time, mostly because of last year.  

 

Oh I don't disagree with this. That's why I did say they are getting their shot with cap space and picks to build for next year. If the offense moves from historically bad to mildly below average that's fine as long as Allen shows progress also and the games are close. But yea I don't think he stays if they are nearly historically bad again regardless of continuity.

[The_Dude]

How come Sean McVay didn’t need 4 years?

[Maybe Someday]

34 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

How come Sean McVay didn’t need 4 years?

 

For starters, he had a very talented QB heading into his 2nd year and also one of if not the best RB in the game waiting for him.  That's a combination that not too many 1st time HCs get. 

 

In the history of the NFL, what McVay has been able to accomplish in his first 2 seasons is more of an anomaly, not the norm.

 

EDIT:  By saying that, I'm not trying to diminish what McVay has been able to do.  He's a heck of a coach but having the right pieces in place for him to install his offense has greatly helped. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Maybe Someday

[Dablitzkrieg]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:53 PM, corta765 said:

A lot of people have been commenting that perhaps McD and Beane should be relieved or at least one changed by seasons end. Here is a look at how long coaches have had to put their program in (for better or worse):

 

1996-97- Marv sees Kelly retire and follows suit next season after Todd Collins doesn't pan out

1998-2000 DC Wade Phillips steps in and the team trades for Rob Johnson to be the future while adding longtime vet Flutie. Without rehashing Ralph basically forced Wade's at QB hand to the point it was easier to leave then stay. During this time Jerry Butler runs the show with a pretty strong staff including AJ Smith who turned later helped turn the Chargers around with Butler. (3 years)

2001-2003 Tom Donahoe is brought in to be the new GM after Butler resigns. Donahoe at the time was highly regarded for his work in Pittsburgh and hire's hot DC candidate Greg Williams to be the new head coach. At the time it was believed Williams could bring the defense more success while helping to smooth out the QB situation. Johnson flames out but the Bills get Bledsoe from NE. Williams in the end is relieved but was able to bring his program in. (3 Years)

2003-05 Donahoe brings in Mularkey who has some relative success both never gets a chance to put together a full team due to QB controversy and mgmt change with Donahoe being replaced by Marv. (2 Years)

2006-2009 Dick Jaruon gets the longest chance of any Bills coach with over three and half years to get his team and QB with Edwards being the guy he thought could work. (3 and 1/12 years)

2010-2012 Chan Gailey gets his shot but never gets enough talent on defense nor a chance to pick a QB of his liking. EJ was after Chan by Nix/Whaley (3 years)

2013-2014 Doug Marrone chooses to leave after building a decent program 2 years in despite Manuel's flame out (2 years)

2015-2016 Rex is given a roster with a lot of talent but still chooses to remake it as his own. Taylor being brought in is a plus given prior QB problems but his defense never gets a chance to be fully established due to injury and being relieved just 2 years in (2 years)

 

Overall only Jauron and Williams ever really got a chance to put their true program and QB out there. The rest the cord was pulled before they got a chance or they left. The biggest thing with this you see is how many times the deck had to be refreshed and altered because of a new coach. I really think McD and Beane should get four years just for the fact I want to see a coach for the first time in over 2 decades to truly put his stamp on a team for better or worse.

You wrote a lot of stuff in here.  I'll simplify it for you.  You aren't ***** without a QB!

[John from Riverside]

46 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

How come Sean McVay didn’t need 4 years?

Because he didnt come to Buffalo silly!

[Cash]

49 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Oh I don't disagree with this. That's why I did say they are getting their shot with cap space and picks to build for next year. If the offense moves from historically bad to mildly below average that's fine as long as Allen shows progress also and the games are close. But yea I don't think he stays if they are nearly historically bad again regardless of continuity.

 

Agreed. I hope that improvement happens. I worry that it won't. First, going from where we are now to something like 20th overall is probably like going from 31 to 1 - there's a long way to go. Second, we only have 3 picks in the first 3 rounds. Third, this regime has shown a propensity to trade up, which I'm generally against. Fourth, there aren't that many good free agents available. We'll see though. If Allen makes a big leap (maybe via not being coached by a WR coach?!), that alone will go a long way. 

 

The other scenario that worries me is that due to feeling the heat, McBeane go all in on FA spending, winding up with a bunch of bad contracts and a 7-9 team. I'd rather see a few Micah Hyde type signings and roll over a bunch of space. In an ideal world, we'd eventually use that space to re-sign our own (good) players.