And more piling on.....

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I know I've answered this question before, maybe not to you, but I know for a fact it wasn't too long ago.....yes, it has - as you mentioned Payton, Belichick, and then look at Holmgren, Parcells, etc....the NFL history is littered with teams who bottomed out only to rebound to great heights. Bill Walsh was 2-14 in his first year and won the Super Bowl two years later, his third as HC of the 49ers. I could go on, but history would not seem to be something you're really interested in....and I'm not throwing jabs, I'm just saying I think you're frustrated - and I really honestly understand that - but that doesn't change facts and it shouldn't change the course of action for the Bills for this year and through 2019, because that's what this whole thing is about. A 4 year plan with year 3 showing real, lasting results of improvement and good football. IMHO

 

 

the two biggest dynasties since 1980 were built on decent drop-back and throw QBs at ND and Michigan, who had no great hyping entering the draft.

 

Montana even won a national title his junior year but wasn't seen as anything all that much

 

 

[CircleTheWagons99]

1 hour ago, RochesterRob said:

  Yep, and when the Bills are doing better next year and beyond ESPN and the other sports media will be on to whatever train wreck is going at that given moment.  You're making this way too hard on yourself.  Honestly, if it bothers people this much go find something else to do between now and the end of the season which is not that far away anymore.  

Season has been over for two weeks now. 

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I know I've answered this question before, maybe not to you, but I know for a fact it wasn't too long ago.....yes, it has - as you mentioned Payton, Belichick, and then look at Holmgren, Parcells, etc....the NFL history is littered with teams who bottomed out only to rebound to great heights. Bill Walsh was 2-14 in his first year and won the Super Bowl two years later, his third as HC of the 49ers. I could go on, but history would not seem to be something you're really interested in....and I'm not throwing jabs, I'm just saying I think you're frustrated - and I really honestly understand that - but that doesn't change facts and it shouldn't change the course of action for the Bills for this year and through 2019, because that's what this whole thing is about. A 4 year plan with year 3 showing real, lasting results of improvement and good football. IMHO

 

I'm not frustrated at all. I expected this team to be a bottom 5 team and that's what we have.

 

The issues I have are with how we've gone about "rebuilding." The things they've done mostly haven't made any sense. 

 

If we were rebuilding, why didn't we tear the team apart last year and do what you guys are suggesting we're doing now, a year ago?

 

This team would be exponentially better off if they'd "tanked" in 2017, got their own 1st round pick in the top 5 and not had to trade away all our draft capital for Josh Allen.

 

Imagine if we'd walked away from the 2018 with a QB, Edmunds and two second round picks. If we'd tanked in 2017 and not won 9 games that's likely what we'd have.

[Ol Dirty B]

48 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  If you are a season ticket holder of any NFL team and never expect poor seasons or in the case of the Bills many poor seasons then you are detached from reality.  If you like sure bets then put it on falling leaves which happens every autumn or the sun rising in the East which happens every morning.  If you feel the need to be always right about something or get a lift from being smug or arrogant then a professional sports team is not the right place to invest your energy.

 

I'm not sure where in any of this post you make sense. You're telling others to go find something else to do because they are criticizing a GM/HC I'm assuming you support. Yet they are the ones who are insistent on being right and being smug?

 

They're fans of the Bills and you're telling them to stop watching lol that's smug.

 

Your response to the OP made some sense, but not this one. 

 

I can be ok with them being bad, but deluding myself into think maybe in a couple years because the D looks good and has some good young pieces. But when you're historically bad on offense, it's impossible.

 

Fans have always been this way and the fanbase has. Some trot out the playoffs changed expectations, no they haven't. Their will always be fans who want the coach gone or thought they hired the wrong guy. 

 

Some fans wanted Reich to start over Kelly after bad games. It has always been this way.

[BigBuff423]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

 

the two biggest dynasties since 1980 were built on decent drop-back and throw QBs at ND and Michigan, who had no great hyping entering the draft.

 

Montana even won a national title his junior year but wasn't seen as anything all that much

 

 

 

I agree....in that, a HC / GM need to build an entire team to win. Now, in contemporary NFL the QB is king (of course it always has been, but much more so in today's NFL) and with a great QB, so much can be masked. But, building a team takes time and some good fortune. Montana sat a year and was pulled after the starter went 3-0 and then lost big, something in today's microwave mentality, I don't know would have happened and yet if hadn't I doubt the legend of Montana would have remained the same, due to lack of opportunity. 

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I agree....in that, a HC / GM need to build an entire team to win. Now, in contemporary NFL the QB is king (of course it always has been, but much more so in today's NFL) and with a great QB, so much can be masked. But, building a team takes time and some good fortune. Montana sat a year and was pulled after the starter went 3-0 and then lost big, something in today's microwave mentality, I don't know would have happened and yet if hadn't I doubt the legend of Montana would have remained the same, due to lack of opportunity. 

 

Walsh took Montana and built the blueprint for his dynasty, the West Coast O, which fundamentally changed the game into the one we have to this day

 

Bills took their unique K-Gun and built their dominance as well

 

sifting through the sawdust of what once worked may work, better to build your own means of dominating

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Thats the problem with this regime. They didnt need to blow it up. Beane has made the team far worse. Some of the decisions I hated at the time - Watkins, Dareus, Murphy, Bodine, Ivory, not cutting guys and losing a 3rd comp pick. Some I thought were good - Star, KB, Davis, AJ signing, Pryor. 

On the whole Beane has missed on 9 of 10 personnel decisions. He cant be trusted with the next off-season. The ten draft picks are an illusion. Only 3 are on the first two days. He wont be let go but he doesn’t deserve to stay.

Get it out.  You'll feel better.  As you say, he will be here anyway.  But get your emotions out.

[Wayne Arnold]

4 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Your chart clearly shows we didn't go for it 90% of the time on 4th and short when between the opponents 31 and 37 yard line. 

 

1. No, it’s not “4th and short”. Could be 4th and 20. 

2. Considering the poor offense and how money Hauschka is, that’s not conservative - it’s smart.

3. Eight teams/coaches never went for a conversion between the 31 and 37. One of those eight had Big Ben as his QB.

[BigBuff423]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

I'm not frustrated at all. I expected this team to be a bottom 5 team and that's what we have.

 

The issues I have are with how we've gone about "rebuilding." The things they've done mostly haven't made any sense. 

 

If we were rebuilding, why didn't we tear the team apart last year and do what you guys are suggesting we're doing now, a year ago?

 

This team would be exponentially better off if they'd "tanked" in 2017, got their own 1st round pick in the top 5 and not had to trade away all our draft capital for Josh Allen.

 

Imagine if we'd walked away from the 2018 with a QB, Edmunds and two second round picks. If we'd tanked in 2017 and not won 9 games that's likely what we'd have.

 

But to be fair they did start the rebuild last year: they traded Watkins and Darby and got interchangeable WRs to put on the field. They only traded for KB when the team (if IIRC) was 5-2 nearing the trade deadline and thought, "Hey, this is going better than we thought, why not get a big WR?!" And his catch for a TD in the snow game was key to the playoff "get". Plus they traded away Dareus to get the dead Cap off the books *this* year because it was a two year hit. They traded Darby - not a trade I agree with, but they thought he didn't fit their scheme. Then, they didn't anticipate in their three or four year plan that they would have to replace both their starting C and LG in the same Off-season but didn't want to stay in Cap prison, so they accepted the hard decision to let this year play out and hope they can put enough together to be competitive. They build in the strength of their Defense and again hoped the Offense could do "enough" to win some games. 

 

And I understand about not needing to trade away assets to get their QB, but it's also hard to ask professional football players, especially guys like KW, Lorax and Shady to "tank". They gave it their all and it made a measurable difference, which to be honest says more about how McD can get the most of his players than what he hasn't yet done with the Offense. Additions like Poyer and Hyde were really key and Tre played out of his mind as  Rookie and probably should have won DROY. All of that said, unfortunately 2018 is the year the Bills thought they would have last year....

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

Walsh took Montana and built the blueprint for his dynasty, the West Coast O, which fundamentally changed the game into the one we have to this day

 

Bills took their unique K-Gun and built their dominance as well

 

sifting through the sawdust of what once worked may work, better to build your own means of dominating

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree again...it's just we don't know what that is yet, except for QB: they wanted a tall, strong, intelligent QB with some raw material to mold him into what they believe he can become. So, 2019 is the year Beane and McD commit to the Offense or the following year will be the year they find new places to call home. That said, I don't think it's escaping anyone's attention at OBD how much needs to be done on Offense to feel good about the future. 

[nedboy7]

Funny how upset people get when someone criticizes the worst team in the nfl.  Rebuild is looking weak. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by nedboy7

[Formerly Allan in MD]

1 hour ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

You mean the same HC that gave this franchise it's first playoff birth in nearly two decades just last year???

 

And yes, they needed help, but when it's every other team in the NFL who makes it into the playoffs - via Wildcard - they're not torn down the same way this fan base does it with the Bills. Fact is, they still needed to win games to put themselves in a position to be in the playoffs, external help be damned. 

 

And for those who presume a rebuild occurs in two years is either 1. 10 years old 2. older, but similar maturity.

He made the playoffs with an offensive line that was functional, if not great.  Two quality OL starters departed and were replaced by Bodine and Newhouse et al, aka meh.  He also made the playoffs with little in the way of wideouts.  That's to his credit.  But the receiver equation hasn't improved.  The deficiencies on the OL, receiver, and elsewhere are on Beane.  Why are so many roasting the coach because of our personnel deficiencies?  He's done and is doing the best he can with what he's been given.  With respect to assistant coaches, that, however, is on him.

[nedboy7]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Get it out.  You'll feel better.  As you say, he will be here anyway.  But get your emotions out.

 

I don’t get this response. Your low level condescending tone. He said nothing emaiotnal. It evokes emotion in you.  Then you blame him for being emotional. Get a grip. It’s called an opinion. 

[jrober38]

9 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

But to be fair they did start the rebuild last year: they traded Watkins and Darby and got interchangeable WRs to put on the field. They only traded for KB when the team (if IIRC) was 5-2 nearing the trade deadline and thought, "Hey, this is going better than we thought, why not get a big WR?!" And his catch for a TD in the snow game was key to the playoff "get". Plus they traded away Dareus to get the dead Cap off the books *this* year because it was a two year hit. They traded Darby - not a trade I agree with, but they thought he didn't fit their scheme. Then, they didn't anticipate in their three or four year plan that they would have to replace both their starting C and LG in the same Off-season but didn't want to stay in Cap prison, so they accepted the hard decision to let this year play out and hope they can put enough together to be competitive. They build in the strength of their Defense and again hoped the Offense could do "enough" to win some games. 

 

And I understand about not needing to trade away assets to get their QB, but it's also hard to ask professional football players, especially guys like KW, Lorax and Shady to "tank". They gave it their all and it made a measurable difference, which to be honest says more about how McD can get the most of his players than what he hasn't yet done with the Offense. Additions like Poyer and Hyde were really key and Tre played out of his mind as  Rookie and probably should have won DROY. All of that said, unfortunately 2018 is the year the Bills thought they would have last year....

 

So they couldn't ask them to tank last year, but they can ask them to do it this year?

 

This is the part of the equation that doesn't add up for me.

 

McDermott hates losing. I think they made the most of their situation last year, and legitimately thought they'd be better this year.

 

I think that they thought getting rid of Tyrod would be an upgrade at QB, that the OL would gel, that a healthy Benjamin and a 2nd year Zay Jones would be fine at WR, and that the running game would be solid like a year ago.

 

I honestly think that they brought back Kyle Williams, and Lorax, because they thought they'd be better this year. I don't think there's any chance that behind close doors they expected this team to take the step backwards that we've seen. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by jrober38

[iinii]

42 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

 

They went 9-7 last year ... somehow.   Don't make it a huge head coaching accomplishment.  Look back, several times the Bills were 9-7 during the drought.  He largely inherited that team.  This is a team that he helped create. Way too early to tar a feather him, but please stop with the making the playoffs at 9-7 is a great accomplishment talk.

McD tried to miss the playoffs last year when he threw Peterman in against LAC and we only backed in so everyone who says he broke the drought skipped a few minor facts. 

The apologists who keep screaming rebuild are like enablers who keep protecting addicts. McD knows very little about offense and that is evidenced by their performance. FACT. 

Daboll has to go, which means another offensive reboot or he stays and mediocrity continues. 

You are right, McD made the mess and I am not sold on him fixing it. All of the front runners are explosive on offense and the Bills  aren’t (to say the least) which makes me wonder if he is just in over his head or his process is going to be his downfall. 

Pegs should give ticket holders a rebate and apologize. 

25 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

 

the two biggest dynasties since 1980 were built on decent drop-back and throw QBs at ND and Michigan, who had no great hyping entering the draft.

 

Montana even won a national title his junior year but wasn't seen as anything all that much

 

 

Allen = Montana. Interesting 

[PittsforDave]

1 hour ago, Koko78 said:

Fire everyone and bring in a crew who will blow up the roster again! That will fix everything!

Roster is already bare bones.  Perfect time for a new crew to come in. 

 

Waiting a year would be a a huge mistake and would set this franchise back another 5 years. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, nedboy7 said:

 

I don’t get this response. Your low level condescending tone. He said nothing emaiotnal. It evokes emotion in you.  Then you blame him for being emotional. Get a grip. It’s called an opinion. 

Look, it's really pretty simple.  We are all frustrated right now.  I get that.  I did my share of screaming at the TV on Sunday myself.  But this stuff about Beane not being trusted, getting 9 of 10 decisions wrong when that is demonstrably not true, calling for guys to be fired right now even knowing going into the season we had drafted a young QB that would at some point be put into the lineup, knowing they decided to take the big cap hit all at once, it just gets a bit over the top.

 

There was a thread that started a week ago that if Beane did not do X by the end of the day (that day being the final day for trades) he should not have a job at 4:00.  Well, it's 7 days later and he has a job.  One guy around here who likes to think he's some kind of QB savant goes on and on about the QB position:  how could the Bills have passed on Watson and Mahomes, the front office is clueless because he did so.  Then today what happens?  Someone finds a post from the same exact guy prior to the 2017 draft, where he says the Bills would be crazy to draft either Watson or Mahomes.  Same exact guy, saying exactly the opposite things.

 

I'll give you another example.  People talk all the time about the current regime not understanding what it takes to win in the modern NFL, that it is an offense league now.  And they somehow choose to ignore that Beane said right before last year's draft that you have to have a star QB to win.  McD said something similar just yesterday, but no one quotes that.

 

Again, we are all frustrated. All these threads about how so and so has to be fired, that they have no clue, and so on.  What purpose do they serve other than letting people just get their emotions out, because they know that no one is getting fired tomorrow or anytime soon.  If that's cathartic for some, fine.  I just find it puzzling.

 

My perspective comes with the wisdom of age, I suppose.  I have seen worse in the Bills history, with thoughts of 1967 and 68, 1977, the early 80's that come to mind.  Head coaches that were much worse.  GM's that were truly clueless.  The current season reminds me somewhat of the year right before Polian took over.  He went to Ralph and told him it would take money and time to turn things around.  And he was right.  And it took a few years, and an effective partnership between HC and GM to make it happen.

 

I have no idea whether Beane and McD are going to ultimately be successful.  Together they've had one draft, and they got the guy they think can be the long hoped for answer at QB (and, predictably, when they did that fans who have been clamoring for years that they never draft a QB immediately change tune and talk about how they should have had pieces to put around a young QB before drafting one).  Their success or failure will ride on Allen and how they use their cap space and draft picks to build the roster.  If they do well they will build a winner.  If not, they'll get fired.  As it should be.  But screaming about firing and all that kind of stuff?  If it's not some emotional rant just to rant, then what is it exactly?

[billsfan1959]

50 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

I don’t get this response. Your low level condescending tone. He said nothing emaiotnal. It evokes emotion in you.  Then you blame him for being emotional. Get a grip. It’s called an opinion. 

And expressing it 100 times in every thread doesn't make it any more legitimate than the opinion of anyone else

[BillsFan1988]

2 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

Pay a tax? Huh? Everyone complains about how all they want is to be relevant and make the playoffs, McD and staff do that IN THEIR FIRST YEAR, and now we're demanding perfection? Did anyone miss how terribly mired in mediocrity this team was for years? How many campaigned for "Suck for Luck" and now the Bills are actually doing the rebuild and fans don't want to anymore and want to fire the architect and contractor before the frame has even been finished on the house? Man, I've said it before: some of the best fans in the world are Buffalo Bills fans, but some of the WORST fans in the world are Buffalo Bills fans....

 

No patience, no vision, no ability to remain positive toward the future and yet miserably complain every time the team tries to do something right...yikes. We're not the laughing stock because of record or Offensive woes or stupid table breaking b.s.....fans become the laughing stock because they refuse to accept the pain of getting better for the future AFTER they've asked for it for going on 10 years. Woof....

First of all u dont know me . U dont know what kind of fan i am . Im not about to start telling u what kind of fan u are either. The problem is we are still not relevant. We haven't been relevant for nearly 20yrs.

 

Lets see now u said we are 

 

#1 Not Patient- well after nearly 20yrs i don't know how much patience i have left.

 

#2 No Vision - i beg to differ on this one. I was never sold on McBeane from the get go. I never joined the process . Actually i predicted a horrible season this yr and i dont think these guys will ever build this team into a real contender.  My vision is basically 20/20 with these guys. My vision is incredible i have begged this team for over 20yrs to draft players i have scouted its a hobby and a passion of mine to scout players and i would do it much better then these fools we got running our team. Im not gonna start a list of players i loved in the draft threwout all these yrs but ill tell u this i thought Mahomes was gonna be great and i got Allen being a bust. 

 

#3 - Not positive - well this one was sucked out of me over the yrs by this team. I used to be the kind of fan they gave this team the benefit of not anymore not after all the hell they put us threw.

Edited November 6, 2018 by BillsFan1988

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, wppete said:

 

Sorry but you are wrong here.

 

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

No, it's most definitely a fact. 

 

Buffalo's 5th in the league in 4th down conversion attempts: http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/downs/sort/fourthDownAttempts

[jrober38]

Just now, LeGOATski said:

 

 

Buffalo's 5th in the league in 4th down conversion attempts: http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/downs/sort/fourthDownAttempts

 

I suspect having the worst point differential in the league has something to say about that.