Bill's Offensive Line is the problem. Amazing stat.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The OL isn't good..........but it wasn't good when they were scoring a lot in the Roman/Lynn offense either.

 

People forget that Eric Wood was hot garbage under Marrone..........even Wood himself thought he was going to be cut for poor performance.

 

And Incognito was a VERY limited athlete.......not good mano-a-mano in pass pro and not enough range to help in the screen game.

 

Yeah Dawkins is no Cordy Glenn but he's serviceable.

 

Not all that much difference in the talent level of those lines.

 

The main difference is the dearth of playmakers at WR and the inability of Bills QB's to make penetrating defenses pay the way Tyrod did with his legs.......and early on in his Bills career with his deep ball.

 

I don't get this - Glenn Ritchie Wood Miller/Ducasse and Dawkins is far better than what we're putting out there now.

[BADOLBILZ]

27 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

I don't get this - Glenn Ritchie Wood Miller/Ducasse and Dawkins is far better than what we're putting out there now.

 

Systems and playmaking QB's can cover up bad OL's.

 

That's been the case here for a while...........much like the days when Flutie made a scrub like Jerry Ostroski look like a good NFL center.

 

But yeah they shouldn't have traded Glenn.

 

That was a self-inflicted wound and utter stupidity..........he's legit.........but at the same time he was basically replaced by Dawkins who is a solid replacement at LT.

 

Wood and Incognito were actually pretty replaceable...........they were propped up in recent years a ton by Tyrod and a VERY cleverly designed Roman system which allowed them to not really face a lot of man up blocking assignments.  

 

I pointed out how putrid Wood was playing in a more man-on-man system under Doug Marrone........he was hot garbage............but one of my favorite Richie moments was watching the AFC team in the pro bowl try to run a wide screen with Incognito...........that dude was slow as BALLS and he fell on his face about 15 feet from where he was supposed to be........talk about guys that were covered up by scheme. ?

Edited November 5, 2018 by BADOLBILZ

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Kevin1778 said:

Amazing stat from Jason OTC on twitter. Incognito and Wood retirements hurt too.

 

Teams investing the least per year on the offensive line

 

1.  Bills- $12.5M
2. Texans- $21.5M
3. Dolphins- $22M
4. Ravens- $22.6M
5. Cardinals- $26.1M
6. Broncos- $26.9M
7. Bengals- $27.3M
8. Patriots- $27.6M

Offensive line is part of the problem.  Not all of the problem.  This has been said by many people, including myself, since the off season.  Where was this thread when Allen or Anderson was in at QB.  Oh that's right, you have a Peterman agenda.

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I can't see it.  There have been too many changes in recent seasons with Marrone, Rex, and McDermott as Head Coaches with GMs Whaley and now Beane.  The current "McBeane" regime will be around at least until the end of the 2019 season IMO. 

For better or worse, I agree.  They will be here through next year.  I imagine they would have to show a drastic improvement next season though.  They trot this crap out there next season and I could see fans revolting and not buying tickets for the first time since I have been watching them.  I have watched them since just before the Kelly years.

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I'm not blaming him. It's the GM/HC duo who have given him crap talent to work with. I don't know what people expect with a porous OL, substandard WR corps, and inexperienced/bad Quarterbacks.  The guy's not a miracle worker.

Even still, I don't think they guy is any good.  He has had 4 years at OC in his history.  His offense has ranked 32nd, 31st, 24th, and 20th.  That does not include this year.  The guy hasn't been good anywhere in the NFL as an OC.  There have been some really bad rosters in the league and none of them played this bad.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Scott7975

[4BillsintheBurgh]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Systems and playmaking QB's can cover up bad OL's.

 

That's been the case here for a while...........much like the days when Flutie made a scrub like Jerry Ostroski look like a good NFL center.

 

But yeah they shouldn't have traded Glenn.

 

That was a self-inflicted wound and utter stupidity..........he's legit.........but at the same time he was basically replaced by Dawkins who is a solid replacement at LT.

 

Wood and Incognito were actually pretty replaceable...........they were propped up in recent years a ton by Tyrod and a VERY cleverly designed Roman system which allowed them to not really face a lot of man up blocking assignments.  

 

I pointed out how putrid Wood was playing in a more man-on-man system under Doug Marrone........he was hot garbage............but one of my favorite Richie moments was watching the AFC team in the pro bowl try to run a wide screen with Incognito...........that dude was slow as BALLS and he fell on his face about 15 feet from where he was supposed to be........talk about guys that were covered up by scheme. ?

Considering it took Tyrod at least three seconds to find someone "open", I think you need to scheme and any good coach would. I tend to look more at what they produced as a unit, coaching included, because you have to have strength(s) to scheme to. I'm not seeing too many strengths with this group, other than being able to quickly help our qb or ball carrier back up to their feet after the guy they missed blocking makes the sack/tackle.

[Peter]

2 hours ago, Kevin1778 said:

Amazing stat from Jason OTC on twitter. Incognito and Wood retirements hurt too.

 

Teams investing the least per year on the offensive line

 

1.  Bills- $12.5M
2. Texans- $21.5M
3. Dolphins- $22M
4. Ravens- $22.6M
5. Cardinals- $26.1M
6. Broncos- $26.9M
7. Bengals- $27.3M
8. Patriots- $27.6M

 

Some of us mentioned in the off season that the line was not any good.  These numbers help tell the story.

 

It is especially ridiculous given that the Bills drafted a very raw QB (and gave up a lot of assets to do so). 

 

One would have thought that McBeane would have done everything in their power to make sure that Josh (or whoever our QB was going to be as well as our RBs) had a good offensive line to help the transition. 

 

 Every time I see Dion pushed around, by way of example, I wonder who came up with the brilliant idea to trade Cordy.

 

Oh well.

[gordong]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

My voice doesn't carry much weight at OBD, but I am holding them accountable.   

 

They should both be shown the door the minute the season ends.  This season is beyond embarrassing, but I guess it will take a lot more to embarrass the Pegula's.

 

 The Pegula's have no idea how to run an NFL franchise and they refuse to hire a VP that actually knows how to build a real team in today's NFL.  at this point we have to hope they get lucky and hire the right guy someday.... The two jokers running things now don't know a damn thing.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

2 hours ago, Kevin1778 said:

Amazing stat from Jason OTC on twitter. Incognito and Wood retirements hurt too.

 

Teams investing the least per year on the offensive line

 

1.  Bills- $12.5M
2. Texans- $21.5M
3. Dolphins- $22M
4. Ravens- $22.6M
5. Cardinals- $26.1M
6. Broncos- $26.9M
7. Bengals- $27.3M
8. Patriots- $27.6M

 

this season will teach them that losing stud players in Glenn, Incognito and Wood can't be replaced by second stringers and they MUST upgrade the Oline.

 

 

[Peter]

4 minutes ago, gordong said:

 

 The Pegula's have no idea how to run an NFL franchise and they refuse to hire a VP that actually knows how to build a real team in today's NFL.  at this point we have to hope they get lucky and hire the right guy someday.... The two jokers running things now don't know a damn thing.

 

As I said before, the Pegulas (in my judgment) are the best owners in the professional sports.

 

Why you ask . . . because I know that they will keep my teams in Buffalo and I doubt any other owner would (more likely the Sabres but probably not the Bills).  They also give both of their franchises all of the resources that anyone could ask for.

 

Although I disagreed with their decisions to fire Lindy and Rex, I have no doubt that they make their decisions in good faith.  I am not a big fan of McCoach by any stretch of the imagination but there were many in the league that thought he was a hot candidate.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Peter

[gordong]

8 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

As I said before, the Pegulas (in my judgment) are the best owners in the professional sports.

 

Why you ask . . . because I know that they will keep my teams in Buffalo and I doubt any other owner would.  They also give both of their franchises all of the resources that anyone could ask for.

 

Although I disagreed with their decisions to fire Lindy and Rex, I have no doubt that they make their decisions in good faith.  I am not a big fan of McCoach by any stretch of the imagination but there were many in the league that thought he was a hot candidate.

  I think they have the right intentions BUT...  just because you own the team doesn't mean you know everything...  The best owners know to bring in the best people. They haven't done that yet. 

 

 good faith is great.... but we are a national laughing stock YET again...    that is the bills legacy..   The bills have sucked almost 48 years of its 58 years.   Let that sink in for a minute...  

Edited November 5, 2018 by gordong
spelling

[Hapless Bills Fan]

48 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The OL isn't good..........but it wasn't good when they were scoring a lot in the Roman/Lynn offense either.

People forget that Eric Wood was hot garbage under Marrone..........even Wood himself thought he was going to be cut for poor performance.

And Incognito was a VERY limited athlete.......not good mano-a-mano in pass pro and not enough range to help in the screen game.

Yeah Dawkins is no Cordy Glenn but he's serviceable.

Not all that much difference in the talent level of those lines.

The main difference is the dearth of playmakers at WR and the inability of Bills QB's to make penetrating defenses pay the way Tyrod did with his legs.......and early on in his Bills career with his deep ball.

 

I disagree about the talent level on OL not having dropped off.   I'm really not sure how one constructs an argument that Glenn-'Cog-Wood-Miller-Henderson (2015) was not more talent than Dawkins-Ducasse-Bodine-Miller-Mills (2018).    Yes, there is a contribution from coaching, scheme, WR talent (with no WR) 4.1 ypa under the same OL coach but this year 3.7 ypa after swapping 'Cog-Wood for Ducasse-Bodine (or Groy).  Then go back to 2015/2016 4.8 and 5.3 ypa, respectively.  Do you really believe Taylor's legs made that much difference?  Yes, they made a difference... but that much?

I believe there is a strong argument to be made that coaching matters, or perhaps better said "coaching/scheme suitable to the players" matters.

 

Marrone had wierd ideas about who should play guard - Doug Legursky then Eric Pears, seriously?  The whole OL seemed often confused. 

Under Kromer, seemed like everybody had a job they could do and everybody did it.  Not great pass protection, but solid run blocking and less confusion.  And from what I saw, there was often better pass protection than Taylor made it appear - he would have passing lanes, and fail to step up into them.

 

When I swallow my Prilosec, dose myself up with Maalox, and deep-dive into the all-22, there seems to be a huge amount of confusion on the line again under Castillo.  We don't seem able to adjust to penetrating MLB let alone blitzes.  And IMO guys are still being asked to do stuff they just can't.

 

 

[Peter]

20 minutes ago, gordong said:

  I think they have the right intentions BUT...  just because you own the team doesn't mean you know everything...  The best owners know to bring in the best people. They haven't done that yet. 

 

 good faith is great.... but we are a national laughing stock YET again...    that is the bills legacy..   The bills have sucked almost 48 years of its 58 years.   Let that sink in for a minute...  

 

To address one of your points, even though I am not a fan of McCoach by any stretch of the imagination, it would be hard to conclude at the time of his hiring that the Pegulas made an embarrassing decision.  McCoach (for whatever reason) was viewed as a hot head coaching candidate.

 

Again, I disagreed with firing Lindy and Rex, and McCoach has sucked the life out of this team and me, but I cannot fault the Pegulas for making the initial decision to hire him. 

 

I suspect that they will not fire him in less than two years because that would just be repeating a stupid mistake. 

 

I do agree that McBeane have done nothing to instill confidence and not only is the team embarrassing it is unwatchable.

 

As for the Pegulas, I give them every benefit of the doubt.

 

As I mentioned in another post:

 

Is Robert Kraft the best owner in the history of the NFL because he hired Billy B and they got lucky in the 6th round?

 

Are the Maras now bad owners but were good owners when they won Super Bowls?

 

Is Stan Kroenke suddenly a good NFL owner but a bad NBA owner?

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I disagree about the talent level on OL not having dropped off.   I'm really not sure how one constructs an argument that Glenn-'Cog-Wood-Miller-Henderson (2015) was not more talent than Dawkins-Ducasse-Bodine-Miller-Mills (2018).    Yes, there is a contribution from coaching, scheme, WR talent (with no WR) 4.1 ypa under the same OL coach but this year 3.7 ypa after swapping 'Cog-Wood for Ducasse-Bodine (or Groy).  Then go back to 2015/2016 4.8 and 5.3 ypa, respectively.  Do you really believe Taylor's legs made that much difference?  Yes, they made a difference... but that much?

I believe there is a strong argument to be made that coaching matters, or perhaps better said "coaching/scheme suitable to the players" matters.

 

Marrone had wierd ideas about who should play guard - Doug Legursky then Eric Pears, seriously?  The whole OL seemed often confused. 

Under Kromer, seemed like everybody had a job they could do and everybody did it.  Not great pass protection, but solid run blocking and less confusion.  And from what I saw, there was often better pass protection than Taylor made it appear - he would have passing lanes, and fail to step up into them.

 

When I swallow my Prilosec, dose myself up with Maalox, and deep-dive into the all-22, there seems to be a huge amount of confusion on the line again under Castillo.  We don't seem able to adjust to penetrating MLB let alone blitzes.  And IMO guys are still being asked to do stuff they just can't.

 

 

 

Good points.

 

It still amazes me that McCoach decided to keep Crossman but somehow did not think that we should keep Kromer or Lal (or Ed Reed for that matter).

Edited November 5, 2018 by Peter

[billieve420]

Fixing the o-line should be priority #1 in the off season and doing whatever it takes both in FA and the draft to field a competent unit out there. I think Dawkins is OK but would benefit by seeing what he can do at RT before moving him inside to guard. 

 

[freddyjj]

1 hour ago, 1ZAYDAY1 said:

I expect that number to triple next year to roughly $30M. Why, Josh Allen and the running game need it!!!

 

I also expect the only starter to be back will be Dawkins.

IMHO there bigger failure than QB was their handling of the Oline.  Bills lost 3 starters vs 2015/2016 teams - Wood, Glenn and Richie.  Severely overestimated Ducasse and Miller's capabilities. Both are NFL backup quality players.   At OT, Newhouse, McDermott were barely NFL roster players prompting them to deal Newhouse and sign Serles mid-season.  As for C, neither Groy nor Bodine are capable NFL starters - again, like QB,  there was a competition where the competitors themselves were not worthy entrants.

 

Going into 2019 I would keep Dawkins, Serles, Boetgger and Teller.  Draft a franchise  LT and move Dawkins to LG.  SIgn a C and RT in FA and let the 2 kids fight it out at RG.  Bid farewell to Mills, Ducasse, Miller and Groy.   Bodine and Serles are backups in 2019.

from another thread.  OBD needs to double down in FA and land a C and RT for 2019.

[Fadingpain]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Just for reference, that is less than 33% of what the Saints are investing in their OL. And they pay Brees + the 10 mil they carry in dead cap for Brees because of the way his contract is structured. 

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offensive-line/

Yeah but let's draft a run stuffing DT with the #3 overall pick in next year's draft!

 

That's how you win football games!

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

Hmmmm, almost like the qb position was planned to suck except for the rookie...

Why on earth would a team draft a QB that is planned to suck , or sign a mediocre at best veteran only to trade him before the start of the season? Then on top of it, be forced to start a very raw prospect too soon because of it ? It seems more like sheer incompetence is at work here. 

[outsidethebox]

2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Six hours ago just the way he did.  You remain irrelevant and pointless.

Lol, whatever 

[Dablitzkrieg]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Just for reference, that is less than 33% of what the Saints are investing in their OL. And they pay Brees + the 10 mil they carry in dead cap for Brees because of the way his contract is structured. 

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offensive-line/

Yes, they have the best o-line in football!

[Boatdrinks]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I am curious as to how you know that......

 

I maintain that unless it was on of the elite qbs of the league they would NOT look good behind this OL

It is an opinion, as is the vast majority of what is posted on this board. Also, I said only that that a good QB would look decent. The line actually is better at pass pro than they are at run blocking. A QB such as Peterman invites pressure and DBs squatting on short stuff. Simply put , there is no fear of the passing game whatsoever . While the WRs are lacking, we see how good QBs put the ball where the WR is going , not where they already are. Even in tight coverage. It’s just a different level of QB play that the Bills do not have at the moment. The line is pretty crappy, but the problems really all come back to the inept QB more than anything else. Few NFL teams have elite OLs these days. Peterman wouldn’t be NFL caliber behind the best of O lines. Anderson is at least an established mediocrity in the past. 

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

My voice doesn't carry much weight at OBD, but I am holding them accountable.   

 

They should both be shown the door the minute the season ends.  This season is beyond embarrassing, but I guess it will take a lot more to embarrass the Pegula's.

Cowherd, Dan Patrick and other am sport shows all took several mocking jabs at Peterman and the Bills. If Terry and Kim want to be humiliated just turn on national sports radio.

Edited November 5, 2018 by LABILLBACKER

[NewEra]

 

2 hours ago, wppete said:

 

Because they both are still employed. 

 

Take a Xanax or smoke a J.  Put down the booze.  You’re completely irrational and can’t take a look at the big picture.  Yes.  This season has been brutal.  Most of us looked at our Offesive line an WRs and knew we’d be bad.  I would’ve loved to sign the best OL and WRs on the market.  Unfortunately, we also had to bolster the worst DL in football last year along with getting an entirely new OL, WRs, MLB, #2+ #3 #4 cb.  Oh yeah, not to mention a franchise QB.  All that with 25+ mill in cap and a bunch of draft picks.  I’d have loved to see how you would’ve fixed it.

 

could they have done a better job in FA last year?  I think we could’ve, but I also think that they could’ve done worse.  Our defense is very good with Trent Murphy is healthy.  And that’s while our #2 cb retired game 2.

 

they ABSOLUTLEY must be given another offseason and a season.  They broke the drought in year one.  Took a step back in year 2.  You cannot fire them after year 2 of a rebuild when they didn’t have enough resources to fully solidify the team.  If we see a similar product after next season, then we’d have a discussion.  If we fire either of them after this season, I’ll have less hope for the Pegulas than if we keep them.