Dr.Sack Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 Hard to polish a turd and that is what we have on offense. A flaming pile of Doo Doo.
Ol Dirty B Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Wrong, you dont know that. McD wasnt a HC before, so he has no prior body of work to prove or disprove that. This offense is devoid of talent, so you cant know if he can lead a team with a good offense or not. We won't know what McD can do from the offensive side until sometime into next season where we can measure the development of Allen and see how this team improves on offense. This myth that a smart defensive coach cant lead a team with a good offense is absurd. I mean just look at our division, BB is a defensive coach. Heck, look at our own team, in the 2 years with Rex the Bills were the second highest scoring 2 year period ever in Bills history, with TYROD at QB...second only to the to first SB years. I mean there are all kinds of examples of this. You're saying, hey, the greatest coach of all time with the greatest QB of all time who won 5 superbowls can do it, why can't McDermott. Then added the point about Tyrod leading the 2nd highest scoring offense in a league that has clearly changed and favors the offense. These aren't examples of anything relevant. You're using using examples out of context as if they are to be expected to happen.
longtimebillsfan Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said: You've got Stockholm syndrome my friend. You don't ship out all those pieces last year, accumulate picks then decide because you won a few games you'll give up a third for Benjamin. You don't draft a QB surround him with nothing, ship out a good tackle because you drafted a decent tackle. You don't take after you get the QB and MLB. It's not a tank. That's a very convenient excuse for what this is. This is ineptitude. Why keep looking in the past. That accomplishes absolutely nothing. It is so much better to look forward. Each to his own.
Ol Dirty B Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said: Why keep looking in the past. That accomplishes absolutely nothing. It is so much better to look forward. Each to his own. Hey I'm looking forward to the future as well. I've said for years I'd rather they just lose at a certain point so they get a higher draft pick. It sucks losing, but just atleast be interesting, give me a couple players to watch for the future. I like watching Tre and Edmunds. Unfortunately on offense, I don't think they approached it correctly. I was pro tank for the Sabres, but that was easy for me. I'm not as big of a fan of the Sabres as I am the Bills. I just see no athletes, I think they ignored it. I know they'll get another year or two, but I just don't see anything on offense to show me they have a clue. The way to make the future better is to cut your losses. I know that's not going to happen. I'd just rather have it this coach isn't calling shots on what goes on on offense. 1
Thurman#1 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Ray Finkel said: The Bucs picked 53rd and Pats picked 56th. No offensive picks. Who those picks eventually got traded to and what those teams used them for is completely irrelevant. Buffalo owned them and used them to get a QB who might eventually become a franchise QB. You said: On 11/5/2018 at 10:33 AM, Ray Finkel said: That is what happens when you neglect the offense. And that's just dumb. Using the 12th, the 53rd and the 56th picks and Cordy Glenn besides to get an offensive player is anything but neglecting the offense. It's building the foundation for the offense. Edited November 6, 2018 by Thurman#1
The Process Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 On 11/4/2018 at 6:53 PM, 26CornerBlitz said: Koolaid's here bringin' ya fun....koolaid's got thirst on the run..... Get a big wide happy ear to ear koolaid smi....eeee....ile! Awesome....thanks for that memory! 1
Thurman#1 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 10 hours ago, Nihilarian said: Yes, we do know how bad this HC/GM and offensive staff are because they went into this season with this mess. Would you have allowed Josh Allen to start behind this mess of an offensive line? I know I wouldn't and just judging from last season I wouldn't have gone into this year thinking that Peterman would be the starter. The receiver corps is also a joke. Most Bills fans were complaining all offseason and the current FO did very little to correctly upgrade the QB, line, WR issues. Keeping McD is just prolonging the inevitable as we look at this season on offense and its really bad and it's not going to get any better. Out of 9 games Ravens, Packers, Colts, Patriots, Bears were all blowouts. So more then half and its not going to get any better from my view. So many player personnel mistakes by this regime and I've learned over the past twenty years that things usually get worse. All the penalties that are still happening each week 10 for 163 yards...are you kidding me? The bigger point is that what made the two teams that you mentioned so successful was that they fired the defensive minded HC and replaced them with a pair of the brightest offensive minds they could find. Usually first time, first year head coaches don't fare that well in the NFL and yet Sean McVay 11-5 after a 4-12 season by Jeff Fisher. The Bears who finished last season 5-11 under John Fox have already equaled that total at 5-3 under new HC Matt Nagy an Andy Reid disciple. If I'm Terry Pegula I'd be looking at the next best and brightest offensive mind to hire as HC before this coaching staff has another season to ruin that rookie QB we both like so much. The defense will be fine with Leslie Frazier as DC so the continuity of the defense should stay the same. Shame too because I happen to like McD. I just think he has no clue with the offensive side of the ball. No, we don't know how bad this HC/GM and offensive staff are because they went into this season knowing it was going to be a mess. They've tried to tell anyone listening not to expect much this year. But you didn't listen. They aren't surprised it's a bad year. Only you folks who didn't get it did. And while some offensive coaches have looked very good recently, so have some defensive coaches. As usual, it's not really which side of the ball a guy comes from, it's how good a head coach he is. You look at the teams - this year - with five or more wins and it's pretty close to even. What's not even is that they pretty much all have good QBs, which is what we got by trading a lot of talent away and then using a ton of draft capital and Cordy Glenn besides on bringing in Josh Allen, who might eventually become good. As for coaches succeeding quickly, yup, they went into situations with good young QBs on board, with more talent and better cap situations and were able to reload rather than rebuild. We didn't have a QB or much talent and our cap situation was horrible. Reloads under those situations are almost guaranteed to fail. So we rebuilt instead. And yeah, that takes awhile, as nearly everyone knows. You'd be looking for an offensive coach. Yeah, whatever. Fine.
Nihilarian Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Who those picks eventually got traded to and what those teams used them for is completely irrelevant. Buffalo owned them and used them to get a QB who might eventually become a franchise QB. You said we ignored the offense. Nonsense. We used the 12th, the 53rd and the 56th picks and Cordy Glenn besides to get an offensive player. Josh Allen. That is exactly right and I think the GM did a masterful job in finding a really good future franchise QB in the 2018 draft! The problem is then this same GM went on to surround this bright inexperienced new rookie QB with utter garbage, on the O line, on the offensive coaching staff. The offensive line is one of the very worst in the league in which the QBs have no time to throw and yet this doesn't stop that moron of an OC from calling mid to deep passing plays. Is it any wonder why Allen has been sacked 21 times in 5 games! Now look at what that kid managed to do in against of the toughest stretches of opponents in the league, he went 2-3, scored 5 TDs. Those two wins are the only wins for the year as Peterman is 0-2, Anderson is 0-2. Peterman has 2 TDs with a QBR of 6.5. That 2016 Buffalo Bills #1 in the league in run game, #1 in rush TDs, #1 in yards per rush attempt is now currently...#23 in rush yards, #23 in rush TDs (because Allen still leads the team in rushing TDs with 3)#30 in yards per attempt. This entire offensive coaching staff needs to be flushed down the toilet like the crap it is...
Thurman#1 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 5 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said: You don't ship out all those pieces last year, accumulate picks then decide because you won a few games you'll give up a third for Benjamin. You don't draft a QB surround him with nothing, ship out a good tackle because you drafted a decent tackle. You don't take after you get the QB and MLB. It's not a tank. That's a very convenient excuse for what this is. This is ineptitude. Actually, you do. Giving up a third for Benjamin was a risk but we still had plenty of draft capital to get Allen. And Allen won us that snow game without which we don't reach the playoffs. And as for Glenn and Dawkins, we needed to get a top four QB. Shipping out Glenn made it a much more likely thing. And Glenn was injured and hadn't been fully healthy in a while. And was coming up on a major payday. This kind of move is made all the time. It made complete sense. You're right it's not a tank. You have to look to hockey and basketball for those. This is a rebuild, a near-complete one. If they still suck in another year or two then yeah, we'll know. As it is it's simply too early to know. Rebuilds take a lot of time and they suck. That's the horrible part. But they can get you a franchise QB when other ways often can't, and they can be the foundation of great teams. No, it's far from guaranteed. But when you're going from a 7-9 record on a team with a crappy cap situation and Tyrod Taylor at QB and a roster no better than decent, it's probably the best chance you have for success.
Nihilarian Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: No, we don't know how bad this HC/GM and offensive staff are because they went into this season knowing it was going to be a mess. They've tried to tell anyone listening not to expect much this year. But you didn't listen. Got a link to this complete nonsense bolded? It's simply not true. Yes, we do know how bad they are because they are what their record says they are...2-7. It's not just about the bad players on offense as it's the bad offensive coaches too. All the penalties and the last game with Chicago it was 10 for 163 yards. This shows lack of discipline. 70 penalties for 640 yards on the season. Most penalties are on the offensive side. *If this GM/HC are now saying that this is a rebuild year then I hope to god they don't start Allen again with that mess of an offense as he might be able to win some games for them, but then again he might get injured again in doing so. Let Peterman play the next 7 games to see if he is even worthwhile keeping. As it is I don't get why he was even on the roster...much less expected to be the starting QB. Edited November 6, 2018 by Nihilarian
Thurman#1 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: That is exactly right and I think the GM did a masterful job in finding a really good future franchise QB in the 2018 draft! The problem is then this same GM went on to surround this bright inexperienced new rookie QB with utter garbage, on the O line, on the offensive coaching staff. The offensive line is one of the very worst in the league in which the QBs have no time to throw and yet this doesn't stop that moron of an OC from calling mid to deep passing plays. Is it any wonder why Allen has been sacked 21 times in 5 games! Now look at what that kid managed to do in against of the toughest stretches of opponents in the league, he went 2-3, scored 5 TDs. Those two wins are the only wins for the year as Peterman is 0-2, Anderson is 0-2. Peterman has 2 TDs with a QBR of 6.5. That 2016 Buffalo Bills #1 in the league in run game, #1 in rush TDs, #1 in yards per rush attempt is now currently...#23 in rush yards, #23 in rush TDs (because Allen still leads the team in rushing TDs with 3)#30 in yards per attempt. This entire offensive coaching staff needs to be flushed down the toilet like the crap it is... So, what you're saying is that the offensive roster is absolute crap, right? And that therefore what we should do is fire the offensive coaches? You realize that doesn't make sense, right? The coaches you fire are the ones who have decent players and get crap production out of them. What you do with coaches who have crap rosters and get crap production out of them is what you should do with every coach anyway ... you take all emotion out of the decision. You collect all the information you need. You avoid knee-jerk reactions. And then you make an ice-cold analysis, grinding through all the info. And then you make an ice-cold decision. What you DON'T do is get all pissy and angry and moan and scream and pick out an easy scapegoat and blame everything on him. Even good coaches need good players. And no, it's no wonder Allen has completed 54%, thrown 2 TDs and 5 INTs while only putting up a YPA of a horrible 6.0 and a passer rating of 61.8. He's a rookie. And a rookie who was trumpeted to the hills before the draft as a guy who would need a ton of development ... a fact promptly forgotten by Bills fans once we drafted him. And yeah, back in 2016, we were #1 in the league in rushing. Yeah, boy, I remember those great days ... sigh ... when we were the 16th ranked offense in the league. We were terrific at running and also way below average at passing. It wasn't like we threw out a great offense. And a lot of the problem is having lost Incognito and Wood, which was not a decision made by this regime. 20 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: Got a link to this complete nonsense bolded? It's simply not true. Yes, we do know how bad they are because they are what their record says they are...2-7. It's not just about the bad players on offense as it's the bad offensive coaches too. All the penalties and the last game with Chicago it was 10 for 163 yards. This shows lack of discipline. 70 penalties for 640 yards on the season. Most penalties are on the offensive side. *If this GM/HC are now saying that this is a rebuild year then I hope to god they don't start Allen again with that mess of an offense as he might be able to win some games for them, but then again he might get injured again in doing so. Let Peterman play the next 7 games to see if he is even worthwhile keeping. As it is I don't get why he was even on the roster...much less expected to be the starting QB. Dude, it really is true. No, they didn't say they were rebuilding. Nobody does. Not even Cleveland. Not in these PR-conscious days. But yes, they've hinted over and over again that this year was not going to be good. They did that because they knew they were rebuilding. It's been there. I wouldn't mind sitting Allen or playing Peterman a bit. Edited November 6, 2018 by Thurman#1
oldmanfan Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 10 hours ago, Nihilarian said: You didn't answer the questions. Would you have played Josh Allen behind that line knowing how bad it is? Would you have gone into the season with Nathaniel Peterman as the starter with so little experience? I'll also ask, Would you have allowed the team to enter the season with no veteran QB on the roster to help guide the two inexperienced QBs? Would you have hired a QB coach that had never previously been a QB coach* to help develop two inexperienced QBs? It's like the blind leading the blind on offense. McD's first offensive hire was Juan Castillo the run game coordinator/ O line coach and he should have been fired last year with Dennison. This year McD hired an OC that has been an OC with 4 different teams for 5 seasons and each time his offenses were never better then 23rd and this year it's even worse. Ever wonder why the guy didn't retain a job as OC for long? The reality of the situation is that the line could have been upgraded as soon as they found out Eric Wood was done. This happened on freaking Jan 26th is when he announced his retirement. Which is more then enough time to find an equal replacement. Draft, free agency, trade. The problem is this FO thought everything would be fine with Ryan Groy and it wasn't. Richie Incognito retired in April 2018 which was more then enough time to find an equal replacement and again they didn't. This FO thought everything would be fine with Vlad Ducasse and again, it wasn't! This is complete incompetence on the line coach, the OC, the HC, the GM as the buck stops at the top. Like I said earlier, this season didn't have to be a wash if the FO went out and replaced the OC, LG and RG properly. Found a better veteran QB to start the season. There is always a way to find money to bring in quality talent. They should have replaced the line coach with someone that knows what they are doing. Hired a better OC with a better record along with someone that has mentored rookie QBs. Same with the QB coach. Ya know what? There is still time to fix some things as this team enters the bye week and it could determine what happens at the end of the season to this regime. Fire Daboll during the bye week or simply demote him and promote the WR coach Terry Robiskie to OC. Let him see if he can fix the run game and help the QBs make some plays, get the team scoring TDs. This year was no rebuild, as that is just an excuse some fans are throwing out there to defend this regime. This coaching staff simply has no idea what they are doing on offense and I only hope to god that these owners don't retain these morons. I don't think I can take another season of Daboll, Castillo and perhaps watching that rookie QB get ruined by a bunch of incompetent morons. On another note, Peterman has a QBR of 6.5... A couple things here. One you say they had plenty of time to find a replacement for Wood. They had one on the roster: Groy. He didn't meet expectations after filling in admirably a couple seasons ago. and they did sign Bodine. And you also talk about having plenty of time to get a replacement for Richie. Now, given the dearth of O linemen in the league as it is, name for me at least two different centers and two different guards, on the free agent market, that they could have signed that would have changed things. You say they were derelict in their duty, then I presume you have folks in mind hat they should have signed. Now, would I have played Allen? IF he was my best QB on the roster, yes. And I think he was opening day. The hit that put him out was a fluke where he got caught between two guys. I do agree, as does Beane, as does everyone as far as I can tell, that they should have had a vet come in when they traded McCarron. The QB coach, by the way, was recommended by Andy Reid, who many here hold up as some kind of QB savant. Now, as to getting rid of guys. They're not going anywhere. I understand people are getting some kind of emotional release by yelling for it, but they are not going anywhere. They only possible scenario where that could happen is if they lose every single game the rest of the season in blowout fashion, and when Allen comes back that won't happen. Doesn't mean that the coaches are perfect. Can't have these blowouts and can't have the penalties like they did last week. Doesn't mean Beane and McD don't have things to fix. But they have a lan, and part of that is having the cap space and picks to build things the way they see fit. They'll get that opportunity.
billsfan_34 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 On 11/4/2018 at 7:07 PM, John from Riverside said: I don’t believe shady is done the o line I. Front of him is a disaster you turn that into a strength and this whole offense looks different zay is a number 3 guy we need two quality wrs in the offseason this CAN be done A number 3 needs to have some strength and YAC ability- Zay hasn’t shown this as of yet- the jury is out. His hands and route running has improved from year one, but is it enough?
Bill from NYC Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 On 11/4/2018 at 7:05 PM, billsfan_34 said: 80 percent of the player on offense need to be overhauled. Let me start- every receiver is a trash pile. Our rb’s are old and Murphy isnt an NFL back- Ivory may have some life left but McCoy is done. The offensive line is just that, offensive. DiMarco, that FB that does something stupid every week flat out sucks. The only QB that should stay is Josh Allen- we need 2 more next year. Our TE’s are all garbage- Clay is old and slow. Any objective fan could see that the above is 100% true. In fact, I think you might have been a bit too easy on Ivory. If he continues to play, do you really think that there will be much left of him next year? The cap space and especially the draft picks will help quite a bit, but imo they will need 2 years to contend. This team is as bad as one can imagine on offense, and some of our best defenders are old. I think the team can be turned around, but not in 1 season. Not when a team is THIS bad.
Fan in Chicago Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: Any objective fan could see that the above is 100% true. In fact, I think you might have been a bit too easy on Ivory. If he continues to play, do you really think that there will be much left of him next year? The cap space and especially the draft picks will help quite a bit, but imo they will need 2 years to contend. This team is as bad as one can imagine on offense, and some of our best defenders are old. I think the team can be turned around, but not in 1 season. Not when a team is THIS bad. Sad thing is that, despite the repeated spin put by John , Alpha and others, much of this incompetence is self inflicted. Any one can excuse a single move made by the FO but in entirety, it is a mess. Whaley was let go primarily because he could not build a winning team. Seeing how they paid such low attention to the offense, I have no confidence that this FO is phililosophically any better. The flip side to the 'give them time' plea is that by the time the offense is any good, the D would have slid. I just don't buy this logic that the cupboard was bare and needed a complete oberhaul. Plenty of examples around the league where new coaches have turned around a franchise in <2 years. The disaster we are seeing as a follow up to a playoff season is an utter inexcusable debacle. 22 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said: A number 3 needs to have some strength and YAC ability- Zay hasn’t shown this as of yet- the jury is out. His hands and route running has improved from year one, but is it enough? I believe it could be enough if he has a true #1 and a speedster to complement him. 1
billsfan_34 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: Any objective fan could see that the above is 100% true. In fact, I think you might have been a bit too easy on Ivory. If he continues to play, do you really think that there will be much left of him next year? The cap space and especially the draft picks will help quite a bit, but imo they will need 2 years to contend. This team is as bad as one can imagine on offense, and some of our best defenders are old. I think the team can be turned around, but not in 1 season. Not when a team is THIS bad. You are right about Ivory- I think he is just on a 1 year deal anyways. Allen needs an offseason with some serious fundamentals work- He has all the tools but the accuracy scares me. Hopefully we are able to address many things with our healthy cap and ten picks in the offseason. I agree, it will take a few years. The sooner Allen gets back in under center this season the better off we will be- he needs to continue to see things at NFL speed. it is possible we draft number 1 overall. It is a very good problem to have. If im the Bills brass, im not drafting for need- im drafting BPA! That is how you really turn things around. In FA- get your number 2 QB behind Allen and Address other things in the draft.
Bill from NYC Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 1 minute ago, billsfan_34 said: it is possible we draft number 1 overall. It is a very good problem to have. If im the Bills brass, im not drafting for need- im drafting BPA! That is how you really turn things around. In FA- get your number 2 QB behind Allen and Address other things in the draft. I can't agree with this 100%. If the bpa happens to be in the secondary, I would pass. Allen is young and needs tools and big time protection. I would, for this particular team, even draft a freaking RB before another corner. We both know who they passed on and took a corner 2 years ago. Imho, the team will have the cap space and the picks to right the ship. They also have demonstrated the capability of screwing things up. I am hoping for a trade down and 2 seasons of multiple picks to increase the odds of good things happening. 1
billsfan_34 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: I can't agree with this 100%. If the bpa happens to be in the secondary, I would pass. Allen is young and needs tools and big time protection. I would, for this particular team, even draft a freaking RB before another corner. We both know who they passed on and took a corner 2 years ago. Imho, the team will have the cap space and the picks to right the ship. They also have demonstrated the capability of screwing things up. I am hoping for a trade down and 2 seasons of multiple picks to increase the odds of good things happening. Great point on BPA! I cant see a corner bein bpa 1-3 in this years draft. Allen definitely needs some weapons and line help. I do like the kid we just picked up- Isaac McKittle. We need some speed/separation/YAC guys desperately- 1 in FA and 1 in the draft is a positive step. It is time to really address the TE position as well.
May Day 10 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 (edited) This season, I expected, and was comfortable with a 4-6 win season, where they are fairly competitive due to their defense. Much like last season (but last season they were very fortunate for once and their wins outpaced their performance). Probably get outclassed once or twice. What has happened this season is wheels coming off. 5th oldest team in the league. Project quarterback shielded from training camp reps becomes the starter after 1 half due to negligent mismanagement. I don't think the plan was to take 10 steps back this season and become a bottom 1-3 team in the NFL. I agree they had a 3 year plan, and behind closed doors were never planning on being a playoff team in 2017 or 2018. This style of ineptitude is also not planned for though. Wanted to build hard work culture, and that isnt accomplished by playing 20 quarters of garbage time in a season and scoring a TD once every 2 or 3 games. Edited November 6, 2018 by May Day 10 1
billsfan_34 Posted November 6, 2018 Posted November 6, 2018 1 minute ago, May Day 10 said: This season, I expected, and was comfortable with a 4-6 win season, where they are fairly competitive due to their defense. Much like last season (but last season they were very fortunate for once and their wins outpaced their performance). What has happened this season is wheels coming off. 5th oldest team in the league. Project quarterback shielded from training camp reps becomes the starter after 1 half due to negligent mismanagement. I don't think the plan was to take 10 steps back this season and become a bottom 1-3 team in the NFL. I agree they had a 3 year plan, and behind closed doors were never planning on being a playoff team in 2017 or 2018. This style of ineptitude is also not planned for though. Wanted to build hard work culture, and that isnt accomplished by playing 20 quarters of garbage time in a season and scoring a TD once every 2 or 3 games. FWIW- I was on the record for 2 wins- that looks like a real possibility. No one should really be surprised where we are at except the abysmal offensively offensive offense.
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