Simon Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Donahoe draft picks after round 3 still starting (or likely to this coming season) in the NFL: Willie Williams Joey Porter Aaron Smith Jerame Tuman Hines Ward Deshae Townsend Mike Vrabel Carlos Emmons Clark Haggans Willie Williams Jonas Jennings Terrence McGee Ron Edwards 285249[/snapback] Baaahhhhhh, those clowns all suck. You don't know what you're talking about, TD is among the worst talent evaluators ever and couldn't find a Day2 starter with a map and a compass. Here's some more of his crappy picks from after the 2ndround when he was headofscouting and then GM in P'burgh: Hardy Nickerson Gregg Lloyd Merril Hoge John Jackson Jerry Olsavsky Justin Strzelczyk Gary Jones Barry Foster Neil O'Donnel Darren Perry Joel Steed Jeff Zgonina Bam Morris Jason Gildon Lee FLowers Kris Brown What a pack of losers
Arkady Renko Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Here are the Pat's late round notables from the past four drafts: 2001: Kenyatta Jones (3rd) 2002: David Givens (#244) 2003: Asante Samuel (#120) Dan Koppen (#164) 2004: ?? None that I can see WHOOOOPIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 284949[/snapback] What about that Gay guy?
ajzepp Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 What about that Gay guy? 285375[/snapback] Pretty sure he was an UDFA.....he only saw the field because of injuries, though.
Arkady Renko Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Pretty sure he was an UDFA.....he only saw the field because of injuries, though. 285382[/snapback] Sorry, I meant Tom Brady
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Pretty sure he was an UDFA.....he only saw the field because of injuries, though. 285382[/snapback] This brings up another key point in this comparison (whether TD's inability to find starters on the second day of the draft is much worse than that of other teams- as far as comparing TD to Pioli, I think the thread makes if pretty clear that when one compares the four years that TD has been here to the same four years of picks by NE, the results are virtually the same. NE does have significantly more guys it drafted starting than Buffalo does, but this is only true when you extend the comparison beyond TD's time here and thus the numbers originally cited by So-Cal are not a relevant indictment of TD). At any rate, there are a couple of other issues that I do not know the answer to that strike me as relevant to this case that if someone knows the answer or is willing to research it I for one will appreciate the increased knowedge: 1. I would assert that a key to NE success has actually not been a mere measure of who starts, but actually much more critical has been the fact that even in the face of huge injuries, NE back-up have stepped up and held down productive roles and that they have operated like a TEAM and backed each other up, Thus, if you really want to measure NR effectiveness, a key is not merely the number of starters drafted, but it actually speaks more highly of them that when a starter like Bledsoe went down, Brady who was drafted stepped up. Anyone who wants to make the most accurate assessment of how they have managed the draft in terms of helping the team would need to make some supportable finding in this area. 2. If one wants to use TDs draft work to assess him, another key factor to consider is that he has done what I think is a great job of translating future draft picks into productivity that year. How do you calculate the value of the 2003 1st round draft pick to the 2002 Bills? One starts out from the standpoint that this pick means zip, zero, nada to the 2003 team. However, TD was able to turn this pick into getting Bledsoe as out starting QB in 2002. He set 6 or 8 Bills passing records that year, his play coincided with the team improving from 3-13 to 8-8, made the Pro Bowl as a reserve and wa the Comeback Player of the Year for many pundits, Bledsoe obviously sucked after that, but an accurate accounting somehow needs to factor this is in (and actually as far as NE goes, the Bledsoe trade positively killed them in 2002. This is true despite the fact that Brady is a far better QB than Bledsoe and NE made the right choice in dumping Bledsoe and keeping Brady. It is true because the accelerated cap hit which came to NE for trading Bledsoe cause them to be unable to afford marginally better back-ups when the bought FAs in 2002 and this team missed the playoffs entirely. Add to this quirky move in assessing TD is that in 2004 he traded our 2005 pick and translated it into getting Losman, While Losman contributed nothing to the team in 2004 playing only as a mop-up, it is clear that this was a necessary and probably productive year for Losman and the Bills as he was developed as out QB of the future. In the calculations in this thread TD is given credit for drafting a starter, but this static finding does not do justice to what TD did in that he turned nothing (a future draft pick) into something (a needed year of practice for JP) which now looks even more valuable as the QB class of 2005 looks pretty light.
TigerJ Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 From another thread praising TD, I figured equal time is fair. Of the currect depth chart I went through and determined of the players who would start, only 8 have been drafted by TD since coming here, and only 1 after the second round. Notice only 1 O-lineman: 284815[/snapback] No, it doesn't alarm me. You need to do an apples to apples comparison if you're going to make a point. Specifically, you need to take a look at several other NFL teams, and look at starters who have been with the team since 2001, the year TD started in Buffalo. How many of the starters were drafted by that team in rounds 1 or 2? How many drafted in rounds 3-7? How many were undrafted free agents? And How many were veteran free agents? Are the starters drafted in rounds 3-7 really solid, or are they only stop gap startersuntil the team can acquire someone better. My guess is that you will find relatively few starters on any team drafted 2001 or later in rounds 3-7 are starting. Players drafted by teams at that point are rarely viewed as immediate starters, so unless you get a real pleasant surprise, such a player has almost no chance of starting in his first two years unless there is an injury ahead of him on the depth chart. TD gutted the team because of cap problems in 2001. That means there has been more turnover on this team than on many others in the NFL over the same period. The real measure of what TD has done is in the record. TD gets only a so-so mark based on record, due mainly to the Gregg Williams mistake. But, if there are few 3rd through 7th rounders, maybe it means TD has done a good job signing vet free agents and drafting in the first couple rounds, and there just isn't much room for lat round draft choices to crack the starting lineup. It is a gross over simplification just to ad up the numbers and say TD can't draft late.
Mark VI Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 You can't win without the horses. We simply don't have the horses, andvirtually none of them are coming after the second round. Pick another team and see how many starters they drafted. Don't you think if TD drafted better in mid-rounds our O-line might not be the single biggest question mark every year, with this year not being an exception? 285154[/snapback] Bledsoe , the stone footed sack king, was our QB. That may have something to do with the perception. Didn't Willis have 1100+ yards in 12 starts last year ?
bobblehead Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 This thread was a righteous beat-down. Thanks for the read, everyone!
obie_wan Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 The Pats drafts since 2001 haven't been as impressive as you think. I'd take ours over theirs any day. 285056[/snapback] Unfortunatlely, the Pats have made more with less because they havebeen drafting very late due to their Super Bowl appearances. Teflon Tom has put done well in buiding this team thru free agency and trades, but he has made his job a lot harder and spent much more because he has not uncovered much cheap talent from the middle rounds of the draft. If more of his mid-round picks had turned out, TD could have spent the free agent money on other areas (OL) and made the Bills a much more talented team overall.
San-O Posted March 24, 2005 Author Posted March 24, 2005 Unfortunatlely, the Pats have made more with less because they havebeen drafting very late due to their Super Bowl appearances. Teflon Tom has put done well in buiding this team thru free agency and trades, but he has made his job a lot harder and spent much more because he has not uncovered much cheap talent from the middle rounds of the draft. If more of his mid-round picks had turned out, TD could have spent the free agent money on other areas (OL) and made the Bills a much more talented team overall. 285634[/snapback] Exactly. I would also add that making the Bills starting roster has probably been a little bit easier than making the Pats roster over the four year period, seeing as they have won three Super Bowls and we have one season over .500, 9-7.
Kelly the Dog Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Exactly. I would also add that making the Bills starting roster has probably been a little bit easier than making the Pats roster over the four year period, seeing as they have won three Super Bowls and we have one season over .500, 9-7. 285653[/snapback] SoCal, am I the only one who agrees with you on this stuff? The Bills roster is bloated with guys from colleges all across the country. What are they thinking? Look at the good teams! Look at the Patriots! The Patriots have Eric Alexander, Rohan Davey, Kevin Faulk, Randall Gay, Jarvis Green and Marquise Hill ALL from one school! Lousiana State! And not only that, but they were all drafted in the 2nd or 4th round! Well, not all, but most, so you can see I'm right! Kind of! Six players on a Super Bowl winning team from LSU! Can't people see that is the way to build your team?! Where are the Bills players from LSU drafted in the second or fourth round?! Josh Friggin' Reed?! And the only other one they had from LSU they havent resigned! Marcus Price! What is TD doing? Clearly the model for winning the Super Bowl is round two and four (okay, with some free agents) from Louisiana State. But Ole' Whitey, he's always going after guys like Nate Clements from Ohio State or Willis McGahee from Miami, the name schools. TD stinks.
Mark VI Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 It's still hard to understand your point when you don't bring coaching into this equation whatsoever. Your argument is based completely on talent, as if they go out and win games based solely on their Madden ratings. TD has been an average drafter and I'll never argue that point. Based on your thread title, I expected you to list multiple round 3-7 picks who have starred for the Pats. The list given by Darin debunked the entire angle. It still comes down to Coaching and having the right QB. Funny how when Brady became QB, the Pats suddenly became a top team. They struggled badly with Bledsoe. The entire roster and Coaching staff became brilliant overnight. Even the great Belichick couldn't overcome DB.
Arkady Renko Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 SoCal, am I the only one who agrees with you on this stuff? The Bills roster is bloated with guys from colleges all across the country. What are they thinking? Look at the good teams! Look at the Patriots! The Patriots have Eric Alexander, Rohan Davey, Kevin Faulk, Randall Gay, Jarvis Green and Marquise Hill ALL from one school! Lousiana State! And not only that, but they were all drafted in the 2nd or 4th round! Well, not all, but most, so you can see I'm right! Kind of! Six players on a Super Bowl winning team from LSU! Can't people see that is the way to build your team?! Where are the Bills players from LSU drafted in the second or fourth round?! Josh Friggin' Reed?! And the only other one they had from LSU they havent resigned! Marcus Price! What is TD doing? Clearly the model for winning the Super Bowl is round two and four (okay, with some free agents) from Louisiana State. But Ole' Whitey, he's always going after guys like Nate Clements from Ohio State or Willis McGahee from Miami, the name schools. TD stinks. 285672[/snapback] I have a disorder where I cannot detect sarcasm. In order to accomodate my disability, could you please let me know when you are being sarcastic so that I won't assume you are being serious otherwise? Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.
Kelly the Dog Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 SoCal, am I the only one who agrees with you on this stuff? The Bills roster is bloated with guys from colleges all across the country. What are they thinking? Look at the good teams! Look at the Patriots! The Patriots have Eric Alexander, Rohan Davey, Kevin Faulk, Randall Gay, Jarvis Green and Marquise Hill ALL from one school! Lousiana State! And not only that, but they were all drafted in the 2nd or 4th round! Well, not all, but most, so you can see I'm right! Kind of! Six players on a Super Bowl winning team from LSU! Can't people see that is the way to build your team?! Where are the Bills players from LSU drafted in the second or fourth round?! Josh Friggin' Reed?! And the only other one they had from LSU they havent resigned! Marcus Price! What is TD doing? Clearly the model for winning the Super Bowl is round two and four (okay, with some free agents) from Louisiana State. But Ole' Whitey, he's always going after guys like Nate Clements from Ohio State or Willis McGahee from Miami, the name schools. TD stinks. I have a disorder where I cannot detect sarcasm. In order to accomodate my disability, could you please let me know when you are being sarcastic so that I won't assume you are being serious otherwise? Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. 285681[/snapback] This response is sarcastic. Wait, no it isn't.
Arkady Renko Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 This response is sarcastic. Wait, no it isn't. 285713[/snapback] My lawyers will be in touch with you regarding your compliance with the ADA
Fan in Chicago Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Maybe because your round one and two picks are pretty damn good! Of course, that wouldn't explain Erik Flowers or Corey Moore, but whatever. 285207[/snapback] Ya, but I am just going with the basic premise that TD can't draft starters after Rd 2. Not that I agree with that premise in a vacuum.
todd Posted March 24, 2005 Posted March 24, 2005 Exactly. I would also add that making the Bills starting roster has probably been a little bit easier than making the Pats roster over the four year period, seeing as they have won three Super Bowls and we have one season over .500, 9-7. 285653[/snapback] Could be, but for a period the bills were clearly in a rebuilding mode while the pats were in a maintenance mode. There's a difference.
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