Why rebuilding isn't an excuse for what's happening this year

[Bangarang]

33 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s my point. They haven’t even started rebuilding. They’re still demolishing.

 

Pretty ridiculous to say they haven’t started rebuilding. White, Dawkins, Zay, Allen and Edmunds were drafted to be part of our young core going forward. All of which are or were (Allen) starters on this team.

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

Not at all. Why do you ask?

 

You act like one. 

[SoTier]

16 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

They will improve the offensive line in the offseason.  They will add WRs in the offseason.  I think Shady is set here for 1 more year because why mess with it.  He can still be a weapon in the 200 touch range, we'll still have murphy and ivory.  The offense needs to be overhauled around that.  The only oline guys who look like theyre likely to stick would be Bodine, Ducasse, Dawkins, maybe Teller/Mcdermott - and thats because they're under contract.  I think they need to bring in 3 new guys though.  WR they need at least 2 new starters, and i think the depth can improve too. 

 

This is pure fantasy.   There is absolutely no certainty that there will even be decent veteran OLers or WRs available in FA or that the Bills will be willing to pay the market rate for them or that FAs the Bills want will sign with them.  As for the draft, it looks to be a more defensive draft, especially at the top, than an offensive one, and the draft is very hit or miss, and the success rates for Day 3 picks (rounds 4-7) are probably only about maybe 20%.  That's where most of the Bills extra picks are.  Moreover, it generally takes 2 or 3 years for an OLer or WR to develop into a competent player.

 

13 hours ago, Nester said:

I feel like people choose to forget how the FO got blindsided by Both Richie Incognito and Eric Wood.  Had both played, stayed healthy and stayed out of jail this season could be totally different.  Solid experienced protection allowing the resources use to replace them to be used on weapon upgrades.  It goes without saying that a diminished Online already mutes our best offensive weapon, Shady.  We need the line to give him those first 3 years so he can get the next 3, like back in 2016 when his average was 5.4 and he got 13 touchdowns.

...

The plan was not as bad as people are saying, they just got ***** on two surprised retirements on the Online and it cascaded from there. 

 

I fully admit their biggest flaw was not having a vet QB to do the heavy lifting this year and teach Allen.  

Big Swing and a Miss with AJ McCarron, i want to say at least they recognized their error, but they did not do the right thing by not replacing him ASAP after the trade. 

 

The Bills got "blindsided" by Eric Wood's injury, but  Richie Incognito was 35-years-old so he was nearing the end of his career.  They should have had a replacement for him already on the roster in the person of a young LG obtained either through the draft, signing a UDFA prospect or scouring the waiver wire which they didn't do because they were so busy weeding out talented players whom McDermott/Beane/Brandon/Pegula/whomever deemed "too expensive" to keep -- and finding bottom feeder bodies to fill the holes. 

 

The same BS is going to happen along the DL either this off season or next when K Williams and Alexander hang up their cleats.  Both are/will be 36.   Will the Bills be "blindsided" by those retirements, too?  Will they send Alexander packing to save some dollars because Howard looks promising as a rookie -- just like they did to Glenn at LT because Dawkins was serviceable as a rook?  What about Trent Murphy?  He's missed more games than he's started I think, so he may be gone, too.

 

Frankly, there was never any real plan except to get rid of most of the well-paid players on the team in 2017 and replace them with lesser players that McDermott and Beane knew from Carolina or who had some prior connection to McDermott -- or were the cheapest FA bodies they could find at that position.  Why do you think the Bills waited for a month to get around to bringing in a backup QB after Peterman proved his incompetence???   They were waiting for Anderson, another Carolina discard, to finish his golf tournament.

 

As I've said repeatedly, there simply aren't enough decent players available in FA and the draft to fill all the current holes that McDermott and Beane have created.   The Bills have two units, OL and WR, that are simply not NFL-caliber.  Maybe 1 or 2 of the players from both units might make contending NFL teams -- as backups.  The DL could also be in a similar state in 2019 because of retirements and injury.  Maybe McDermott (2017) and McDermott/Beane (2018) shouldn't have wasted so much draft capital frequently trading up to chase after specific players to fit their narrow criteria.  After all, JuJu Smith-Schuster was still available when the Bills traded up to grab Zay Jones.

 

11 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

It’s the mindset of McDermott.

 

You can study tape long enough, go to meetings on time, correct mistakes, and out culture the league.

 

He talked about it again this week, starting with habits and winning mindsets as a way to jump start the offense. 

 

I think its as simple as he thinks Kelvin Benjamin is good enough if he studies the tape hard enough. He doesn’t look at it like the fans do. This is not a talent problem, this is learning how to win and tipping our hat to the opponent. 

 

 

 

This is why McDermott will fail as a HC, especially when given control of which players to keep and which to bring in.  Talent trumps everything.  Dedication, desire, and hard work can enhance talent, but if it's not there to begin with, no amount of dedication or hard work is going to create it.  The Bills have thrown away too many talented players in the McDermott/Beane era because McDermott can't see that.  Kelvin Benjamin is simply not fast enough to be a WR1 or WR2 in the modern NFL, and studying tape is not going to ever enable Nathan Peterman to regularly throw out routes to his own teammates rather than to the other team.  

 

[Tenhigh]

8 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

You act like one. 

How so?

[jethro_tull]

19 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

I'm not talking about the record, I've never cared about that for this season. But I think that's what some people think rebuilding is, and that's all it is. There's a development process within rebuilding that the regime should be judged on as they go, they're not successfully rebuilding because we stink. What I wanted to see was organizational progress, and the #1 priority there is the development of the guy they used a lot of assets and draft capital to get...yet we're basically going to lose an entire year of legitimate development for him.

 

How it can be excused that after 2 offseasons with this regime, knowing the franchise QB they picked would be the difference between it being a success or a failure, that we have absolutely no protection or weapons for him? I don't know that he's going to be good even with that, I don't know if he has the accuracy to be a top level QB, but we have to find out as soon as possible.

 

And what faith, not in the McDermott/Peterman way, are we supposed to have that this regime can identify talent on the o-line when after 2 offseasons we have one passable starter? Are we supposed to be confident that they can find 4 before next season? Let alone skill players at almost every single offensive position. 

 

The progression during the rebuild is what needs to be looked at, and I think it's alarming how many holes we have after 2 offseasons. A successful rebuild in today's NFL should really happen in 3 years and we're not even close to that. The organizational planning is also very concerning, most notably with obviously how the QB situation was so badly handled this year. When you watch these games from Peterman and Anderson...this is the brainpower and evaluation abilities of Beane and McDermott at work. 

 

I don't care about being 2-6 or whatever we end up with. But to basically lose an entire precious year of development on the offensive side of the ball doesn't instill much faith in Beane and McDermott's ability to rebuild. 

Rebuilding is not an excuse  but it is part of the picture.  

The biggest impact to this lack of wins this season was the unforseeable loss of their best (2) offensive line starters Incognito and Wood.  This crippled the run first offense and made it increasingly difficult for any QB to be successful this season.  

This and this alone give them a pass for the year IMHO.  

The defense is doing very well and has the chance to be really special in the coming years as the young players develop.  

Their biggest mistake (as it seems now) was banking on Nate Peterman to be the starter and the eventual backup.  Absolutely ludicrous in hindsight (at this point).  However he was a fifth round pick and never intended to be a starter.  

The jury is still out on Allen.  He has showed some good things and some rookie things.  He deserves some time and a better team around him to show what he is capable of.  

His injury is preventing his development BUT if he starts after the bye week he will play in as many games as Mitch Trubisky did least season for the Bears.  

McBeane have only (2) drafts under their belts.   They need and deserve another (2) IMHO.     

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Not at all. Why do you ask?

He asks because you’re an impatient entitled millennial if you don’t want to eat poop game after game after game under the premise that McDermott’s elite culture will eventually lead us to sustained winning. 

 

Those Bills fans believe that you have to sit in the garbage heap of the league, keep your mouth shut, keep mining that coal, pressing the widgets for the boss, and trust McDermott. You are not allowed to bring up facts in the form of the decisions this regime has made and debate whether they are smart. 

 

You accept it was disaster here and it was necessary for McDermott to go to these lengths to clean it all up. 

52 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

Rebuilding is not an excuse  but it is part of the picture.  

The biggest impact to this lack of wins this season was the unforseeable loss of their best (2) offensive line starters Incognito and Wood.  This crippled the run first offense and made it increasingly difficult for any QB to be successful this season.  

This and this alone give them a pass for the year IMHO.  

The defense is doing very well and has the chance to be really special in the coming years as the young players develop.  

Their biggest mistake (as it seems now) was banking on Nate Peterman to be the starter and the eventual backup.  Absolutely ludicrous in hindsight (at this point).  However he was a fifth round pick and never intended to be a starter.  

The jury is still out on Allen.  He has showed some good things and some rookie things.  He deserves some time and a better team around him to show what he is capable of.  

His injury is preventing his development BUT if he starts after the bye week he will play in as many games as Mitch Trubisky did least season for the Bears.  

McBeane have only (2) drafts under their belts.   They need and deserve another (2) IMHO.     

So Wood retiring on January 26th and management asking Incognito to accept a pay cut were so out of the blue that nothing could be done to the point that this whole season and 10 ppg on offense gets a pass? 

[mjt328]

20 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I'm not sure how a position can be counted as "addressed" if those players aren't any good. 

 

With Allen I'd say they've potentially addressed the QB position, but I agree with your other post that you have to keep drafting and bringing in different QB's every year to see if you can either find a diamond in the rough in case that top pick doesn't pan out or to develop a quality backup. 

 

WR I don't agree at all. Benjamin doesn't fight for the ball, I don't see how that would change with better QB play. I don't think he's anywhere close to a WR1, and the way he's played most of this year, not even a WR2. Jones is showing some improvement but not at WR2 level. I think he's a WR3 at best. We need at least one top talent there and another very solid option. TE is a definite need. And we have 1 legit starter on the o-line, we need 4 more. On D we still need a linebacker, an edge rusher, and a corner. And obviously we need depth on both sides of the ball. 

 

I can't agree that this is on track after 2 offseasons. That's a lot of holes, and they haven't showed the ability to fill holes with quality, not just literally filling them, at a fast enough pace to think they can even approach all of that in this one coming offseason.  

 

I think you missed the point of my post.

 

The goal for any front office should be to add (or retain) 5-6 strong starting players per season.  Do the math.  That means about a quarter of the roster each year.  Anything more than that would be totally unrealistic.  Beane/McDermott have only gotten a chance to address "approximately" 50% of the roster at this point.  And out of that group, a significant number are rookies or 2nd-year players who are still developing. 

 

I definitely agree that Benjamin has been a bust of a pickup for us.  But that's one player.  I think we can agree that Tre'Davious White, Dion Dawkins, Matt Milano, Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer were successful adds.  That's 5 of 22 starting positions that the new regime addressed well in Year 1. 

 

In Year 2 (keep in mind we are only 8 games in), I think most of us have been pleased with the additions of Star Lotulelei and Trent Murphy in Free Agency.  Both have been solid pickups for the defense.  The signs are also pointing up for Tremaine Edmunds, Harrison Phillips and Taron Johnson as rookies.  It's very early, but that's another 5 positions we can "optimistically" say were addressed well in Year 2.

 

So yes.  When you do the math, the Bills are realistically on-pace for a successful rebuild. 

Obviously, we have a long way to go.  And there are some big questions:

a)  Will the young players like Edmunds, Dawkins and Phillips continue to trend up, or eventually hit a wall?

b)  Will the young struggling players like Zay Jones or (especially) Josh Allen develop into good starters?

c)  Will another player like Wyatt Teller step up into a starting role eventually?

d)  Will our front office keep up the pace of 5-6 players per season... especially now that they are forced to focus on the offense.

 

Nobody knows the answers to these questions.  And all of them are key to the Bills future.

 

[Success]

5 hours ago, Helpmenow said:

Rebuilding for 17 plus years

Not like this.

 

We have always tried to remain competitive while rebuilding.  There are different schools of thought on that, but there is something to be said for going all in.

[Jrb1979]

IMO the way they are rebuilding is backwards thinking in this era. The top teams win with offense and an average defense. I know a lot of the Rockpile fans don't like to hear that. I am sure most Rockpile fans loved when McCoach came out and said you win with field position and pounding the rock. According to him thats the way you win in Buffalo cause of the weather. I know rebuilds take time but there should be no excuse for having an offense on pace to set records for being bad. You can 't be a blue collar team and win in this league anymore. 

 

My biggest question is why do a lot of the old time fans hate the way the league is now? 

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

28 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

 

My biggest question is why do a lot of the old time fans hate the way the league is now? 

 

 

 

Because it’s played the way short attention span, low IQ kids enjoy it. It’s anything but football.

[Jrb1979]

5 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Because it’s played the way short attention span, low IQ kids enjoy it. It’s anything but football.

Sorry but the Rockpile days are not coming back. You aren't going to see a return of smashmouth football. IMO the reason the league is going the way it is cause its their way of limiting the amount of concussions. Thats why its so easy to complete passes in the middle of the field. You can no longer hit guys that aren't looking. I am fine with that as it limits injuries.  That kind of football has no place in this league. 

[Boatdrinks]

10 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Sorry but the Rockpile days are not coming back. You aren't going to see a return of smashmouth football. IMO the reason the league is going the way it is cause its their way of limiting the amount of concussions. Thats why its so easy to complete passes in the middle of the field. You can no longer hit guys that aren't looking. I am fine with that as it limits injuries.  That kind of football has no place in this league. 

I’ll agree that it’s not coming back, but the game is worse. It’s that simple. Real football meant the middle of the field wasn’t for the faint of heart. Now, any player can live over the middle regardless of toughness or size. QBs cannot get hit anymore, so they play up until they apply for their AARP card. The game today is more akin to what the Pro Bowl was in the 80’s and 90’s. There are still plenty of concussions, just rarely the kind of plays that end of on Sportscenter. Players are well compensated and know the risks, so I don’t care much about the injuries. There are plenty of jobs out there paying much less that present larger risks than concussions. Even up to and including immediate death. The league has gone soft, and it’s not a great thing. They could have made the game a bit safer without fundamentally altering football as it was. 

[Jrb1979]

I am sorry defenseless plays have no place in this game anymore. There is no need to launch into a player cause he isn't looking at you. QBs can get hit but there is no need to take out his knees or head to hit him. Sorry but most fans pay to see the stars of the league make plays not defenseless hits. 

[SoCal Deek]

6 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

Pretty ridiculous to say they haven’t started rebuilding. White, Dawkins, Zay, Allen and Edmunds were drafted to be part of our young core going forward. All of which are or were (Allen) starters on this team.

I see!  So because the Bills drafted players the last two years they’re rebuilding? With that logic EVERY team is rebuilding! Did you expect them to simple pass when they’re turn came up? Or maybe select seven long snappers? 

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I see!  So because the Bills drafted players the last two years they’re rebuilding? With that logic EVERY team is rebuilding! Did you expect them to simple pass when they’re turn came up? Or maybe select seven long snappers? 

 

Please explain how you differentiate demolishing from rebuilding. The point you’re making makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying the last 2 drafts aren’t part of their rebuild? 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

 

Please explain how you differentiate demolishing from rebuilding. The point you’re making makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying the last 2 drafts aren’t part of their rebuild? 

Let me try...again. The point I’m making is that if you look at the big picture, the Bills are still in the salary-dumping mode. That should turn the corner in 2019 when many of the old regimes personnel will be off the books. So, while they’ve added some players (everyone does every year) they’ve been more focused on SUBTRACTING leftovers. It’s not bad a thing....it’s just a more accurate description of their current spot on the evolutionary scale.

[Bangarang]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Let me try...again. The point I’m making is that if you look at the big picture, the Bills are still in the salary-dumping mode. That should turn the corner in 2019 when many of the old regimes personnel will be off the books. So, while they’ve added some players (everyone does every year) they’ve been more focused on SUBTRACTING leftovers. It’s not bad a thing....it’s just a more accurate description of their current spot on the evolutionary scale.

 

Looks and sounds like a rebuild.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 hour ago, Jrb1979 said:

I am sorry defenseless plays have no place in this game anymore. There is no need to launch into a player cause he isn't looking at you. QBs can get hit but there is no need to take out his knees or head to hit him. Sorry but most fans pay to see the stars of the league make plays not defenseless hits. 

 

Because we can't have any unnecessary violence any more.

 

Because concerned mothers everywhere would be even more concerned. Why don't people who think like this just go watch something soft and useless like the NBA?

 

[Jrb1979]

26 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Because we can't have any unnecessary violence any more.

 

Because concerned mothers everywhere would be even more concerned. Why don't people who think like this just go watch something soft and useless like the NBA?

 

Unnecessary is just it. If you really want to see violence like that go watch MMA. There is no need to take a defenseless players head or knees out for no reason other then to scare them from going across the middle. One day you Rockpile fans appreciate good offense

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Jrb1979 said:

Unnecessary is just it. If you really want to see violence like that go watch MMA. There is no need to take a defenseless players head or knees out for no reason other then to scare them from going across the middle. One day you Rockpile fans appreciate good offense

 

"good" offense created by castrating the defense isn't good offense.