How many coaches/GMs survive a tank?

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

The point is that it was a throwaway year. 

 

I am a season ticket holder and what I gave them was not "throwaway" money.

 

This whole tank losing nonsense is a slap in the face disrespectful move to people who put their money where their mouth is in regards to supporting the Bills.

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I think folks are forgetting how devastating the unexpected losses of Eric Wood and Richie Incognito were to McBeane's plan. Heck, we had just re-signed Richie to an extension! This would be a completely different team if those two were around, or even ONE of them. And neither of those losses were in Beane's "plan". So folks that say he completely messed up the Offensive side of the ball arent seeing the entire picture. Yeah, he was doing some minor damage, but there was rhyme and reason behind it. Unfortunately, those curve balls of losing the very competent interior of your OL will almost always devastate a team.

Now that is funny!!!!!  Minor damage shipping Watkins & hiring terrible OC's?  Yep but he replaced them with his type of players........  

Edited November 2, 2018 by Billsfan1972

[mannc]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I am a season ticket holder and what I gave them was not "throwaway" money.

 

This whole tank losing nonsense is a slap in the face disrespectful move to people who put their money where their mouth is in regards to supporting the Bills.

Especially since no such strategy was ever disclosed to the ticket-buying public.  If it WAS the plan, then the team is guilty of fraud.

[apuszczalowski]

Tanking is something that the koolaid fans make up as an excuse to justify their team being garbage in a rebuild. No franchise ever goes into a season with the intent of losing g games just to ensure a better chance of drafting #1 overall. How can that be justified to the rest of the team filled with players who have careers that have expiry dates, and ticket buying customers?

 

This is another year of a rebuild that is not going the way they had hoped. The front office believes they have something in Nate Peterman and they have an obsession with draft picks. They want their own guys and decided to ship off guys that didnt meet their standard and take a cap hit now so they hope they will be able to attract some talent in  the offseason.

 

I6s still a valid question to ask even if you change it to how many coaches survive a full rebuild? (Not a simple retooling)

How many times have teams been in a rebuild, and that coach that was supposed to be the one to get them through it gets fired just before they start getting good? You could say Hue Jackson was one of them, Fisher with the Rams, etc. Guys that were the coaches through the bad years as they rebuilt and didnt get to stay on til they turned the corner.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

17 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I am a season ticket holder and what I gave them was not "throwaway" money.

 

This whole tank losing nonsense is a slap in the face disrespectful move to people who put their money where their mouth is in regards to supporting the Bills.

 

I mean, you can't run a team based on fan sentiment.  If you did you would have a new GM, Coach, First Round QB, etc. every year.  They are where they are because they make tough decisions.  I'm sorry, but you are entitled to nothing but your seat as a season ticket holder

2 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

Tanking is something that the koolaid fans make up as an excuse to justify their team being garbage in a rebuild. No franchise ever goes into a season with the intent of losing g games just to ensure a better chance of drafting #1 overall. How can that be justified to the rest of the team filled with players who have careers that have expiry dates, and ticket buying customers?

 

This is another year of a rebuild that is not going the way they had hoped. The front office believes they have something in Nate Peterman and they have an obsession with draft picks. They want their own guys and decided to ship off guys that didnt meet their standard and take a cap hit now so they hope they will be able to attract some talent in  the offseason.

 

I6s still a valid question to ask even if you change it to how many coaches survive a full rebuild? (Not a simple retooling)

How many times have teams been in a rebuild, and that coach that was supposed to be the one to get them through it gets fired just before they start getting good? You could say Hue Jackson was one of them, Fisher with the Rams, etc. Guys that were the coaches through the bad years as they rebuilt and didnt get to stay on til they turned the corner.

 

I sort of think "tanking" and "rebuild" are the same thing.  Sure, you are happy to win games along the way, but if you lose a ton it just doesn't matter.  What matters is the plan for the next year and the year after. 

[reddogblitz]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I mean, you can't run a team based on fan sentiment.  If you did you would have a new GM, Coach, First Round QB, etc. every year.  They are where they are because they make tough decisions.  I'm sorry, but you are entitled to nothing but your seat as a season ticket holder

 

I'm not asking them to run on fan sentiment. I'm just asking them to put the best team on the field they can and try to win.  Doesn't seem like too much to ask. 

 

I realize the bolded but I don' t have to like it and don't.  I do think I should be entitled to expect them to at least try to win every game. 

 

The other part to this is I probably don't have a ton of seasons left. I HATE to waste any of them losing in hope that maybe someday they might win again. It is far from a given.

 

If you're happy with it though, good for you.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm not asking them to run on fan sentiment. I'm just asking them to put the best team on the field they can and try to win.  Doesn't seem like too much to ask. 

 

I realize the bolded but I don' t have to like it and don't.  I do think I should be entitled to expect them to at least try to win every game. 

 

The other part to this is I probably don't have a ton of seasons left. I HATE to waste any of them losing in hope that maybe someday they might win again. It is far from a given.

 

If you're happy with it though, good for you.

 

Well, lucky for you, I believe in this staff and think we have our QB.  The years to come are gonna be a ton better than this misery. (I reallllllly hope)

[reddogblitz]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Well, lucky for you, I believe in this staff and think we have our QB.  The years to come are gonna be a ton better than this misery. (I reallllllly hope)

 

I hope so too!

 

Go Bills !!

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

we all knew the 19-20 season is when we'd be legit contenders.

we did?  It's just that simple?? Hmmmmmm

[reddogblitz]

3 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

we did?  It's just that simple?? Hmmmmmm

 

I thought we were legit contenders last year and expected we'd be closer this year.  Few teams go from cellar dweller to SB contenders over night.  Most are good for a few years (like last year) and incrementally improve til they break through.  Thinking New Orleans, Denver, and  Seattle here.

[ctk232]

57 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Last year they repeatedly said the plan was to rebuild AND win.  What happened to that?  Last year they also said we were rebuilding and we won 9 games.  Was that not a rebuild even though they said it is. 

 

this team did not need to "rebuild".  they needed to reload. 

Now that's a good debate worth a thread - even though it's basically what all these threads turn into, there is good debate to be had around that subject of whether or not we needed to. 

 

And the plan is still rebuild and win (at least publicly) - we just aren't doing the winning part.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Serious question. Not a fan of giving away talent in order to bring in "your guys" since I believe in tanking breeds losing. I'm just wondering if anyone can come up with an example from any sport, where a coach/gm started a tank and where there to see a championship.

 

 

 

Said this many times on here but:

 

No team has parlayed tanking into sustained competitiveness since the Colts tanked the 1997 season to draft Peyton Manning.

 

So the last good tank job was 22 years ago and before the Bills became irrelevant.

 

All of the consistently top teams built in the 2000's rose from mediocrity rather than just being awful and getting super high draft picks.

 

Tanking as a strategy in the modern NFL doesn't work........ because the league has changed.

 

A lot of factors but it begins with major shifts in the "team control" aspect,  salary cap management and the ability of good coaches to turn teams around quickly.

 

First round contracts are only 4 years now instead of the guaranteed 6 years.........and teams are much better at managing the salary cap which results in less franchise changing talents hitting free agency...........and with talent naturally generally spread pretty evenly by the systems in place a sign of BAD coaching is now not being able to make a quick turnaround.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Said this many times on here but:

 

No team has parlayed tanking into sustained competitiveness since the Colts tanked the 1997 season to draft Peyton Manning.

 

So the last good tank job was 22 years ago and before the Bills became irrelevant.

 

All of the consistently top teams built in the 2000's rose from mediocrity rather than just being awful and getting super high draft picks.

 

Tanking as a strategy in the modern NFL doesn't work........ because the league has changed.

 

A lot of factors but it begins with major shifts in the "team control" aspect,  salary cap management and the ability of good coaches to turn teams around quickly.

 

First round contracts are only 4 years now instead of the guaranteed 6 years.........and teams are much better at managing the salary cap which results in less franchise changing talents hitting free agency...........and with talent naturally generally spread pretty evenly by the systems in place a sign of BAD coaching is now not being able to make a quick turnaround.

 

 

The 2007 Falcons were awful (4-12 and near the bottom of every category), and they got Ryan at #3 in the next draft. Not sure that was a deliberate tank, though - it was the Bobby Petrino season. But it was also the post-Vick season (who wasn't coming back), and they were rolling out Joey Harrington as their starting qb. Regardless, they have had sustained success ever since except for a couple of bumps in the road after 2012. From 2008-2012 (five seasons), they were 56-24.

Edited November 2, 2018 by dave mcbride

[MPT]

3 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

What I said was, "They drafted their future, sat him for a year, and are now moving forward."  That explanation is the whole point.  That is what you are ignoring. 

 

Seriously? You say I'm ignoring your point and then leave out the first sentence of your two sentence quote, which defines the basis of your argument. 

 

If you're saying that the Chiefs handled their QB situation similarly, then I'll grant you they did in fact draft a QB with the intent to sit him for a year. However, having Alex Smith in front of him is a completely different situation than what we're doing. They sat him for a year and still had a plan to be extremely productive offensively. They didn't plan to sit him while tanking, which is what you claimed. 

[Nihilarian]

It makes no sense to tank a season unless you are looking to draft that franchise QB and the Bills drafted theirs in 2018. What's the point? 

 

I don't think this FO intended to tank as it just went that way due to a bad QB, O line, WR situation. This FO/HC and coaching staff must pay the consequences. 

 

2-14 is looking realistic at this point. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I mean, you can't run a team based on fan sentiment.  If you did you would have a new GM, Coach, First Round QB, etc. every year.  They are where they are because they make tough decisions.  I'm sorry, but you are entitled to nothing but your seat as a season ticket holder

 

I sort of think "tanking" and "rebuild" are the same thing.  Sure, you are happy to win games along the way, but if you lose a ton it just doesn't matter.  What matters is the plan for the next year and the year after. 

Tanking, Rebuild, Process are all the same code words for " give me more time before you fire me"....

[Fadingpain]

5 hours ago, vorpma said:

Tanking breeds losing; what about mediocrity for 16 years, sign a big name free agent - take your pick - make a coaching change, draft poorly and stay in the hunt until December then watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January.  Build up excitement during the off season, keep fan favorites because you are so close (not in reality though), and watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January. Why is it so difficult to understand this is an organization in desperate need of a "rebuild" bringing new culture and identity? Your way we stay mediocre for the next twenty years and repeat the off season hope to the January without the Bills! 2001 - 2016 a total organizational failure! Me, I'm sticking with the rebuild and from I have seen from the "Scientific TBD Polls," so are many others who get it!

I disagree that a crap team and season of this magnitude were required to fix the culture and identity of the team.

 

This "rebuild" begins and ends with the success or failure of Josh Allen, but we didn't select him with a high draft pick resulting from having a bad season anyway. 

 

We burned assets and players to get him in the draft following a playoff season!

 

Burning the franchise to the ground is not necessary if you think Allen is your guy and is going to be a good franchise QB for many years to come.

 

We are likely to select (gulp) a defensive lineman with our high first pick next year.  We already had one until these guys gave him away for nothing.  And the new guy will have close to zero impact on wins and losses regardless.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

This year sucks, but at least its not a half assed rebuild. Tear it down and do it if your going to do it.

 

I hope it works out

This team went to the playoffs last year.  Why did it all need to be torn down? 

 

What it needed was a QB better than Tyrod, and in theory, we got that in last year's draft without having a high pick resulting from a bad year.

So why the tear down?  If you think Allen is the man,  (and McBeane do) then we had a playoff team with the man at QB going into this season.  

 

Again, why the tear down?

 

 

 

 

[dave mcbride]

29 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

It makes no sense to tank a season unless you are looking to draft that franchise QB and the Bills drafted theirs in 2018. What's the point? 

 

I don't think this FO intended to tank as it just went that way due to a bad QB, O line, WR situation. This FO/HC and coaching staff must pay the consequences. 

 

2-14 is looking realistic at this point. 

They'll win at least another game. The defense is too strong and too many of their upcoming opponents too weak to not win a game in which they have a turnover feast. 

[vorpma]

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You're right. You tank usually because you're targeting a specific qb (marquee player). McB's year 2 rebuild just under estimated  how bad their offense would be. We truly won't know how this rebuild is doing until the end of next season. The defense looks top 10. And every Bills fan on the face of the earth know we need better WRS, TE, OL, etc. Jury is still out on Allen? I know the word patience is a painful broken record to most fans, as it should be. Let FA/ Draft 2019 play out. Think on the bright side, Peterman might finally be released?

Fair enough, good post!

52 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

I disagree that a crap team and season of this magnitude were required to fix the culture and identity of the team.

 

This "rebuild" begins and ends with the success or failure of Josh Allen, but we didn't select him with a high draft pick resulting from having a bad season anyway. 

 

We burned assets and players to get him in the draft following a playoff season!

 

Burning the franchise to the ground is not necessary if you think Allen is your guy and is going to be a good franchise QB for many years to come.

 

We are likely to select (gulp) a defensive lineman with our high first pick next year.  We already had one until these guys gave him away for nothing.  And the new guy will have close to zero impact on wins and losses regardless.

 

 

 

 

This team went to the playoffs last year.  Why did it all need to be torn down? 

 

What it needed was a QB better than Tyrod, and in theory, we got that in last year's draft without having a high pick resulting from a bad year.

So why the tear down?  If you think Allen is the man,  (and McBeane do) then we had a playoff team with the man at QB going into this season.  

 

Again, why the tear down?

 

 

 

 

Because it got LUCKY!

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Fadingpain said:

I disagree that a crap team and season of this magnitude were required to fix the culture and identity of the team.

 

This "rebuild" begins and ends with the success or failure of Josh Allen, but we didn't select him with a high draft pick resulting from having a bad season anyway. 

 

We burned assets and players to get him in the draft following a playoff season!

 

Burning the franchise to the ground is not necessary if you think Allen is your guy and is going to be a good franchise QB for many years to come.

 

We are likely to select (gulp) a defensive lineman with our high first pick next year.  We already had one until these guys gave him away for nothing.  And the new guy will have close to zero impact on wins and losses regardless.

 

This team went to the playoffs last year.  Why did it all need to be torn down? 

 

What it needed was a QB better than Tyrod, and in theory, we got that in last year's draft without having a high pick resulting from a bad year.

So why the tear down?  If you think Allen is the man,  (and McBeane do) then we had a playoff team with the man at QB going into this season.  

 

Again, why the tear down?

I highly doubt there was any intention of a tear down at any point. I just think that this FO/coaching staff didn't realize the consequences of losing a pro bowl LG and a pro bowl center at the same time. I wonder if they now realize how important a pro bowler at LG, C to have a quality functioning line and it would be even better with upgrades at RG, RT too.

 

My take is McD put way to much trust in his offensive assistants in believing them when they said they would be okay with the talent on hand at QB (Peterman) and O line Groy, Bodine, Ducasse, Mills, Miller. As it turns out the scrub that Dion Dawkins was drafted to replace is one of the better players on that line. (low bar)

 

If the Pegula's replaced Rex Ryan at the end of a 7-8 season I have no doubts that they won't hesitate to make changes this season too. McD might be on a very short leash at this point and I hope for his sake he makes changes to his offensive coaching staff. No TDs in 50 drives is ridiculous.