How many coaches/GMs survive a tank?

[Billsfan1972]

You do realize this team scored 41 of their 81 total points in a 4 quarter span where SD was cruising the second half of week two and the Vikings were steamrolled & the Bills scored 27 points in the first 24 minutes of that game? 

[uticaclub]

12 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Lol. Ok . So you're just vthe type that refuses to give them the credit they deserve. We gave up 22 @GB and 18 vs NE , if you're going to bring up their QB situations,u have to bring up our even worse QB situation. Anybody with an ounce of football i.q knows the D played phenomenal in those 5 games. 

Yea we got blown out in those games. The D did play well but not phenomenal. This D would be decent with a modern NFL offense, but it's definitely not strong enough to be the backbone of the team. Obviously we don't know the opponents gameplan but when teams want to take it to us, they do.  

[ctk232]

8 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

That's what they're saying now because they totally mis evaluated the QB talent on hand and have had to start schmucks. Surely that was not the plan.  Now they're making excuses.

 

When did the Saints "rebuild"?

When did the Packers "rebuild"?

When did the Steelers "rebuild"?

 

This better work or they will be out on their bun shortly.  They have pissed away any extra runway they may have earned last year by making the playoffs year 1.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000928588/article/bills-gm-beane-says-team-is-rebuilding-we-have-needs

 

^On April 25, 2018. In case you don't feel like reading, "It's a natural assumption that the Bills plan to move up in the draft, Beane acknowledged to NFL Network's Aditi Kinkhabwala, but in his mind the roster is still in "rebuilding" mode and yet to "arrive" as a contender.

 

Was said before this mess of a season even happened. Not every team needs a rebuild, did you see how the three teams you mentioned kind of already had franchise QBs that have arguably been in the top 10, if not top 5 at the position in the league for the past decade? The best QB we had in that time was TT, so yea, it's going to be a rebuild.

Edited November 2, 2018 by ctk232

[vorpma]

53 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

The only caveat being in this scenario you can still draft better to get the team over the playoff bubble hump and perennially compete. Though I agree - the Bills franchise was perpetuating mediocrity, even with solid draft picks. However, we didn't start to hit on our late draft picks until these past two drafts, and even then only with Milano and Taron (not nothing). But I wonder what we could have if we retained at least a bit more offensive talent. 

 

No one is arguing this offense isn't that bad, their absolutely horrific, but I feel that most of the reactions here are to that point and not about tanking. It's an utter lack of presence on the offensive side of the ball, and people can't handle it for one season (I get why). In my mind, it's not fun to watch either, but I get that it's part of a rebuild and this, while exceptional, is what was said would happen and what we have to move forward with. I also believe the intention was to tank last year and not have to trade up for their top QB (likely not Allen if we land a top 3 pick) - our defense just played lights out and McD/Beane decided to commit to the playoff run a la bringing in KB. And so we did, and now they've had to work with continuing a rebuild off of a playoff year. That's why you see what's happening in Oakland in Gruden's first year. The Bills just happened to have this 18 year monkey on our backs that the FO decided would be better off removed moving forward than getting a higher pick.

 

To the point of this thread however, it's not a past case study, but if you want an example of a worse offense and more comprehensive tank - look no further than Oakland. It's likely Gruden doesn't want Carr long term, and if anything would have offloaded him pre-trade deadline if he wasn't about to get run out of town and be the first coach investigated for actively attempting to lose (yes, hyperbole). Both teams playing last night only had one win, someone had to come out of it with two, but the Bills aren't alone in this rebuild. Gruden was out there smiling when he increased his point deficit by 27+ and came out today promising to build a title team - it's a tank. 

Tanking can work, Jimmy Johnson knew he had to strike gold in his 1990 draft and he did, ditto Bills in 2019. You just have to deal with an impatient fan base and media!

[Fadingpain]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

We're talking about a rebuild where they are on track for one of the top 10 worst offensive scoring performances since the league went to a 16 game schedule in 1978. 

 

Here are the lowest scoring teams since 1978 and their season records:

 

1. 1992 SEA 140 points for (PF)  3-13

2. 1991 IND 143 PF 1-15

3. 2000 CLE 161 PF 3-13

    1998 PHI 161 PF 3-13

5. 2006 OAK 168 PF 2-14

6. 2009 STL 175 PF 1-15

7. 1990 NE 181 PF 1-15

8. 2000 CIN 185 PF 4-12

9. 1993 CIN 187 PF 3-13

10. 2011 STL 193 PF 2-14 

 

Buffalo is on track to score 174 points this season, or 6th worst in the last 41 seasons.  This isn't a rebuild, it's managerial ineptitude and this ship isn't getting turned around in one off-season either. 

That's just one way to measure futility.

 

If you focus on things like point differential, we are on pace for the worse season in franchise history....worse than the pathetic 1971 team.

 

 

[JerseyBills]

3 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

Yea we got blown out in those games. The D did play well but not phenomenal. This D would be decent with a modern NFL offense, but it's definitely not strong enough to be the backbone of the team. Obviously we don't know the opponents gameplan but when teams want to take it to us, they do.  

Oh yeah . So the 5 teams mentioned held back now!?!? Do you really believe that?? When has Belicheck/Brady ever held back? When has Rodgers ever held back? Houston held back in a 3 point game too???? That statement that they held back is laughable....Oh and Watson was playing with a collapsed lung according to you lol, explains why we held em to 13, same team that put up 42 in a blowout this week. C'mon man, that's such a ridiculous statement

[reddogblitz]

6 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000928588/article/bills-gm-beane-says-team-is-rebuilding-we-have-needs

 

^On April 25, 2018. In case you don't feel like reading, "It's a natural assumption that the Bills plan to move up in the draft, Beane acknowledged to NFL Network's Aditi Kinkhabwala, but in his mind the roster is still in "rebuilding" mode and yet to "arrive" as a contender.

 

Was said before this mess of a season even happened. Not every team needs a rebuild, did you see how the three teams you mentioned kind of already had franchise QBs that have arguably been in the top 10, if not top 5 at the position in the league for the past decade? The best QB we had in that time was TT, so yea, it's going to be a rebuild.

 

Thanks for the link. I did read it.  However it nowhere mentioned losing.  It was mostly conjecture by the author.  There is only 1 quote from Beane in there which does not mention losing or getting worse to get better.

 

Quote

"I realize we have needs," Beane told Kinkhabwala, "and have to get better

at a lot of spots."

Edited November 2, 2018 by reddogblitz

[uticaclub]

5 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Oh yeah . So the 5 teams mentioned held back now!?!? Do you really believe that?? When has Belicheck/Brady ever held back? When has Rodgers ever held back? Houston held back in a 3 point game too???? That statement that they held back is laughable....Oh and Watson was playing with a collapsed lung according to you lol, explains why we held em to 13, same team that put up 42 in a blowout this week. C'mon man, that's such a ridiculous statement

They all won the games didn't they?

 

Watson did have a collapsed lung: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/deshaun-watson-reportedly-played-with-partially-collapsed-lung-taking-hits-at-alarmingly-high-rate/

 

Houston scored real quick after we scored a rare TD.

 

Here's how you beat the 2018 Bills? Don't turn the ball over & wait for them to beat themselves.

 

It's a long season, why would a team put more out there in game film when they know, they run the plainest offense and still win comfortably? 

 

The D is good but nothing to hang your hat on. Bears with a young QB and in a tight division will win by 30

[Big Gun]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I mean, if you are going to completely bypass my point, there really isn't much to say here. 

You don't have a point!

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

The usual result of a tank is getting fired.

 

Bill Parcells said "The coach that is rebuilding is rebuilding for the next coach that comes in."

 

Certainly was the case for Gus Bradley and Jim Caldwell.

 

If these guys don't turn it around quickly they will face the same fate IMHO.

Not sure about history of past teams. I can just say that Rex Ryan didn't outlive a 7-8 season. This team went from a low passing offense to a non passing offense and has regressed badly this year without Tyrod. That vaunted Bills #1 run game died along the way too. 

 

If McD doesn't make an offensive change by the bye week I can see the entire coaching staff getting the axe after the season or even at some point along the way. Shame too because I like what McD has done with the defense. He has no clue about the offense or offensive coaches.

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

I think folks are forgetting how devastating the unexpected losses of Eric Wood and Richie Incognito were to McBeane's plan. Heck, we had just re-signed Richie to an extension! This would be a completely different team if those two were around, or even ONE of them. And neither of those losses were in Beane's "plan". So folks that say he completely messed up the Offensive side of the ball arent seeing the entire picture. Yeah, he was doing some minor damage, but there was rhyme and reason behind it. Unfortunately, those curve balls of losing the very competent interior of your OL will almost always devastate a team.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, vorpma said:

Tanking breeds losing; what about mediocrity for 16 years, sign a big name free agent - take your pick - make a coaching change, draft poorly and stay in the hunt until December then watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January.  Build up excitement during the off season, keep fan favorites because you are so close (not in reality though), and watch the playoffs minus the Bills in January. Why is it so difficult to understand this is an organization in desperate need of a "rebuild" bringing new culture and identity? Your way we stay mediocre for the next twenty years and repeat the off season hope to the January without the Bills! 2001 - 2016 a total organizational failure! Me, I'm sticking with the rebuild and from I have seen from the "Scientific TBD Polls," so are many others who get it!

You're right. You tank usually because you're targeting a specific qb (marquee player). McB's year 2 rebuild just under estimated  how bad their offense would be. We truly won't know how this rebuild is doing until the end of next season. The defense looks top 10. And every Bills fan on the face of the earth know we need better WRS, TE, OL, etc. Jury is still out on Allen? I know the word patience is a painful broken record to most fans, as it should be. Let FA/ Draft 2019 play out. Think on the bright side, Peterman might finally be released?

[blacklabel]

I don't look at it as a tank. Intentionally losing is not what they're trying to do. I think they over-estimated their talent on offense a little bit. Their plan for this season was probably similar to last season: play tough defense, get turnovers, create short fields, lean on Shady and the run game and let your QB take some shots when you can. Beane admitted he should've had Derek Anderson up here right after they traded McCarron. Hindsight is 20/20, what can you do? On top of that, they're simply strapped for cash. They did due diligence on free agents in the off-season, they tried to bring some guys in but because they're dealing with bad contracts set up by the previous staff, they just didn't have the money this year to be competitive in their contract offers. 

 

I get that people are impatient and bummed out about this season, but, they gotta give these guys a chance to work through this and continue their vision. They're focused on long-term success. I mean, we made it through 17 seasons of no playoffs. We can make it through one more, especially if it means being consistently in the hunt each year. They've built a very good defense that should only get better as the younger guys get more experience. They have plenty of $$$ and picks next off-season to bring some talent in here, wheel and deal for more picks or even some players, etc. Gotta see it through. The Pegulas know this as well and they're exercising patience and letting these guys work. 

 

And I'm really surprised that there are quite a few fans here that think tearing down the roster was a bad move. The roster they inherited was all over the place. It had close to the lowest percentage of homegrown talent in the entire league. They had some hefty contracts that weren't on par with the production they were getting from the players that had those contracts. They had a bridge QB who hit his ceiling in 2015. They had to trim it down and build some cohesion. They've drafted well so far and we haven't really seen them go ham in free agency due to the lack of money. They've filled some high priority spots, left tackle, QB, cornerback, middle linebacker, with players on rookie deals. This allows them the chance to spend a little bit more to fill some other spots while they continue to draft BPA. It'll come together. Can't fix it all in one off-season.

[row_33]

1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

They only tanked in the playoffs

 

The Ghost of two-minute drills past always bugbears Andy Reid

 

that chart he pretends to read all game suddenly looks like its turned into Swahili and he can't read it under all the stress

 

 

couple years ago in the playoffs he faced the 2nd worst clutch coach of the last 20 years in Marvin Lewis and many wondered who would lose when the immovable object met the irresistable force of 2 minute drill choking

 

 

[nedboy7]

2 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

But we all expected to be a 4-5 win team. At least on here , I remember the majority of posters expecting Bufffalo to take a step back , mainly because the QB position.  So then it happens and everyone is freaking out, Even calling for the firing of McBeane!

 

Did they mess up the QB position? Yes. But it's ok , McBeane has said from day 1, this is going to take time and they are all about LONG TERM success. And they laid a phenomenal foundation on D,  with the most dead money in the league , it's all about next year and beyond. They have a TON of resources to fix the O, get a suitable backup for Allen , and fix the WR group.

 

They get a pass from me. Again , we all knew the 19-20 season is when we'd be legit contenders. They deserve and definitely will get that opportunity. I personally think McD is the real deal and just needs the appropriate talent. He's 11-13 but when you look at the talent level , most coaches, especially first year, would have a worse record. 

 

I just don't understand how fans expected a certain outcome and when it happens , they're calling for McBeanes head on a stake! Mind boggling really , it stinks we are essentially done at the halfway point but if you can't see that they have a clear vision and have built a fantastic core on defense and have 90 mil and solid draft capital to get the O on track . They should be set for long term success starting next year.. 

 

Draft capital?  You mean an extra 4th and 5th will fix the line?  What’s w this draft obsession. It’s 2 more picks.  Mid and late round. Ok fine you expected a bad team.  That’s fine. Did you expect not having a QB?  Cause that’s what happens when you don’t make a solid plan. Allen might not even become an avg qb for all we know. So while I admire your positive outlook I do not share it w you.  Not cause I’m a bad fan but cause I see a huge mistake that is very hard to get away from.  People seem to use the term rebuild to explain every bad decision made by these guys. No rebuild is one thing. You can have a bad rebuild. Don’t blame the talent level. Cause this team is almost identical to last years. Which is their fault. Can they turn it around. It’s possible. I sure hope so. Cause draft position don’t mean ***** to me. 

[ctk232]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Thanks for the link. I did read it.  However it nowhere mentioned losing.  It was mostly conjecture by the author.  There is only 1 quote from Beane in there which does not mention losing or getting worse to get better.

 

Okay, but that's what a rebuild is. And like I said before, no GM or HC will actively come out and say that they are actively losing, or even comment on the matter beyond "we need to get better at many spots" and the many variations on that. Also, when an news article puts the word "rebuilding" in quotations, that means that the person being referenced/interviewed said it. Brackets mean it was implied/replaced, and everything not in either is paraphrasing.

 

Even with a semantic argument like that your point doesn't hold. He said we were in a rebuild then, and it's plain as day that's the plan - you don't have to talk about losing or getting worse to say you are in a rebuild. This is what that look like.

Edited November 2, 2018 by ctk232

[reddogblitz]

8 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Okay, but that's what a rebuild is. And like I said before, no GM or HC will actively come out and say that they are actively losing, or even comment on the matter beyond "we need to get better at many spots" and the many variations on that. Also, when an news article puts the word "rebuilding" in quotations, that means that the person being referenced/interviewed said it. Brackets mean it was implied/replaced, and everything not in either is paraphrasing.

 

Even with a semantic argument like that your point doesn't hold. He said we were in a rebuild then, and it's plain as day that's the plan - you don't have to talk about losing or getting worse to say you are in a rebuild. This is what that look like.

 

Last year they repeatedly said the plan was to rebuild AND win.  What happened to that?  Last year they also said we were rebuilding and we won 9 games.  Was that not a rebuild even though they said it is. 

 

this team did not need to "rebuild".  they needed to reload. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by reddogblitz

[Mango]

43 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I think folks are forgetting how devastating the unexpected losses of Eric Wood and Richie Incognito were to McBeane's plan. Heck, we had just re-signed Richie to an extension! This would be a completely different team if those two were around, or even ONE of them. And neither of those losses were in Beane's "plan". So folks that say he completely messed up the Offensive side of the ball arent seeing the entire picture. Yeah, he was doing some minor damage, but there was rhyme and reason behind it. Unfortunately, those curve balls of losing the very competent interior of your OL will almost always devastate a team.

 

I mean we traded Glenn away nearly 3 months after Wood. Dawkins could have kicked inside, with  an already weak right side. Richie happened about 3-4 weeks after Glenn. 

 

We could have had the plan of lining up Glenn, Dawkins, Bodine, Incognito, Mills. 

 

But that’s not what happened at all. Richie, Glenn, Wood, all were off the roster with plenty of time to replace them....but we couldn’t because we created our own cap hell.

[reddogblitz]

Just now, Mango said:

But that’s not what happened at all. Richie, Glenn, Wood, all were off the roster with plenty of time to replace them....but we couldn’t because we created our own cap hell.

 

Amen my brother.  this whole cap thing is nonsense.  They did it to themselves.  It didn't have to be like this.

[LSHMEAB]

3 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

The point is that it was a throwaway year.  The only difference is they kept their QB while we traded ours.  Sure, we could have middled if we kept TT, just like we have in the past and just like KC did with Smith, but that doesn't get us anywhere. 

Then I'm officially excited for next season when Allen is breaking scoreboards and smashing NFL records!