John Wawrow on the QB situation

[BillsFan4]

1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

I know this might be mind blowing stuff but if they were able to read the Peterman situation correctly they could have signed a guy like Anderson in the offseason and had him ready to go. Not that he is a savior but I’m sure he would have looked better the first 4-6 weeks if sitting Allen was the plan. 

They did try to sign him in the offseason. Steve Tasker said they had been trying to sign Anderson since the spring. It took him that long to agree. 

 

They also tried to sign Josh McCown, Sam Bradford and showed interest in signing Case Keenum, too. Each chose to sign elsewhere. 

[SinceThe70s]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Because I thought that his initial premise was strange.  You don't need to consider ever possible answer (and prompt the responder with all the possibilities?) in order to ask the obvious question on everyone's mind.  You don't have to have "a follow up" in order for the HC to answer this question.  He should be able to simply answer it.  He knows the answer. These were all his decisions.  He knows the list of alternatives that everyone is thinking of,  so he doesn't have to be specifically asked about each one.  That's absurd.

 

The original seemed as simple as why are reporters bashing the QB handling without asking about the QB handling. 

 

Whatevs, doesn't change the mess we're in at QB.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, SinceThe70s said:

 

The original seemed as simple as why are reporters bashing the QB handling without asking about the QB handling. 

 

Whatevs, doesn't change the mess we're in at QB.

 

 

They were asking

[Nihilarian]

11 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

You just drew the dividing line amongst the fans, some will twist and turn so they can justify the handling of Peterman, while others like myself won’t. I took one look at Peterman and the first thing that came to my mind was that this kid needs a pitching mound if he wants to throw outside the hashes. 

 

I expect that professionals like Beane and McD should be making better evaluations and in doing so that would have prevented some of this mess. It’s not a lot to ask. 

Most head coaches like McD that are from a defensive background have no clue about the offense and usually leave those decisions to the offensive coaching staff.

 

I gotta believe that the current offensive coaches are at fault for the wrong evaluation with Peterman and the HC is going by the consensus of his offensive staff.

 

That said, I expect a OC coaching change pretty soon considering no TDs in the last 50 drives. This lack of offense is killing the entire team as the defense wears down from bring on the field so much. At the bye perhaps. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Nihilarian

[SinceThe70s]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They were asking

 

Um yeah, got that...assuming that's true (I have no reason to doubt otherwise), that's a better argument. If they hadn't been asking would you still have an issue with the original tweet?

[US Egg]

2 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

The problem for me is I don’t have the attention span to follow twitter arguments 

 

The problem for me is.....wait,....are you just talking about attention spans or following Twitter arguments or both ?

Edited November 2, 2018 by I am the egg man

[Mr. WEO]

7 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

They did try to sign him in the offseason. Steve Tasker said they had been trying to sign Anderson since the spring. It took him that long to agree. 

 

They also tried to sign Josh McCown, Sam Bradford and showed interest in signing Case Keenum, too. Each chose to sign elsewhere. 

 

 

One tweet by Tom Polissero in March said the Bills had "some interest" in Bradford and "could be interested" in Keenum.. That's a long way from "tried to sign".

10 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

 

Um yeah, got that...assuming that's true (I have no reason to doubt otherwise), that's a better argument. If they hadn't been asking would you still have an issue with the original tweet?

 

 

Of course.  It's a strange criticism of the press.  That was my first response.  It makes no sense as a criticism.  

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

You sure about that? Matt Milano was a 5th round pick and he is trending towards a pro bowl caliber player.

You get a 5th round pick as a pro bowl player once every 10 years....last we had a successful 5th round pick was Kyle Williams

[Phil The Thrill]

I’ve wondered about this too.  While McDermott doesn’t really answer questions, the media has to expect that and be prepared to ask a follow up question.  I never understand why they don’t do that.

 

To Warrow’s original point, I do think the Bills should have been more aggressive in finding a veteran either through FA or a trade.  I do agree that the options were limited

 

[BigDingus]

"All that said, of all this mishandled the QB situation talk, still awaiting a realistic outline of how it should’ve been handled.

Keep McCarron (over a fifth-round pick)?
Sign Keenum (and outbid Broncos)?
Sign Bridgewater (and bet on him being healthy)?"

 

I don't really think that's a fair point..."Awaiting a realistic outline?" I've seen countless discussions from experts & fans alike laying out much better plans than what we actually did. Here, I'll give some options that would've been infinitely better than what we did.

1. Since it begins with the offseason & your obvious plans to draft a QB high in this draft, you could've done a number of things differently. A) If you wanted someone other than Allen, you already let the Jets outbid you for the #3 spot, so you got beat there. B) If you wanted Allen from the start, you knew he was a project pick, and would benefit from having a veteran mentor & sitting the year.
 

2. Which leads to A) keeping the veteran you have on the roster in Tyrod Taylor, or B) signing another one that knows & accepts his role, someone like Derek Anderson. Did that happen? No.

3. Ok, so you sign McCarron instead. You know your only other QB other than your rookie is a 2nd year 5th round pick who became an interception meme. Combined games started between the trio was what, 4? At least McCarron showed he was capable enough of starting, is young enough to have some upside, and you got him at bargain bin pricing. Nope! Trade him for a 5th round pick, throw in the other 5th round pick INT machine as the starter, & have your project rookie as the #2.

4. So now you've already started the season backed into a corner. You're one injury or bad game away from having just your rookie QB & nobody else. Peterman plays like Peterman, doesn't even make it 1 game. A clear sign of decision making failure right there. It also adds another layer to the failure, as it casts doubt on your ability to even judge QB's, and here you are having just invested a ton picks into a rookie QB this past draft! You somehow thought this guy, Nathan Peterman, was so capable that you not only didn't need a veteran on the roster, you traded your backup plan before the first game! Yet we're supposed to believe you're the one who knows QB talent, and how to put that talent in a position to succeed? Good luck Josh Allen.

5. Alright, so at least we now know that you can't trust Peterman, Allen is the starter, and injuries can happen at any moment. So what would a smart coach do in that situation? Sign another QB immediately! But no, we gamble, trotting Allen out there week after week to get destroyed while looking completely out of his league in the process. We sign one 4 games later, but then shocker, Allen eventually gets hurt. In comes Pick-6 Peterman. Peterman does his schtick, McDermott finally realizes he has royally f'd up. Guy that's been there for a couple days now has to be starter.

6. In this whole time, QB's have been signed by various teams. Veterans on other rosters could be targeted for trades. Yes, that includes players like Teddy Bridgewater. "But is he healthy enough?" He's been cleared many times, was active last year, played well in the preseason, and wasn't expensive. It's a better option than what we've got, and funny enough, the same things were said about another Saints QB in Drew Brees before they signed him. 

7. To top it off, McDermott gets another fail for assembling this garbage WR corps & O-line KNOWING he's going to invest heavily in a rookie QB! Talk about putting them in a position to fail, this is more like putting them in a position to get destroyed & lose all confidence. But hey, at least we had a veteran there to help lead, help the other young QB's keep their head on their shoulders & help them understand what they're seeing out there...oh wait. McDermott mishandled the QB situation by also mishandling the other critical positions on offense.

 

And yes, it was VERY obvious we'd look like this! At some point I'm just going to go through the offseason posts & threads and show how easy this was to see coming. Just as easy is knowing it will inevitably lead to the OC getting blamed/fired, and this whole playbook Allen is learning thrown out the window...making half of what he learned this season worthless. It's like they went step by step through the "how to ruin a rookie QB" manual.

There's plenty more to break down. But I've already come back & forth to this post a dozen times already while working on other things. Rather just finish it now, be told by eternal optimists that everything is better than it ever has been (like they did all offseason) and come back later.

Edited November 2, 2018 by BigDingus

[QCity]

The fans that are whining about McCarron not being here are the same people that would be whining if McCarron was still here.

 

They call that a whine-whine situation. 

 

[Ayjent]

11 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

"All that said, of all this mishandled the QB situation talk, still awaiting a realistic outline of how it should’ve been handled.

Keep McCarron (over a fifth-round pick)?
Sign Keenum (and outbid Broncos)?
Sign Bridgewater (and bet on him being healthy)?"

 

I don't really think that's a fair point..."Awaiting a realistic outline?" I've seen countless discussions from experts & fans alike laying out much better plans than what we actually did. Here, I'll give some options that would've been infinitely better than what we did.

1. Since it begins with the offseason & your obvious plans to draft a QB high in this draft, you could've done a number of things differently. A) If you wanted someone other than Allen, you already let the Jets outbid you for the #3 spot, so you got beat there. B) If you wanted Allen from the start, you knew he was a project pick, and would benefit from having a veteran mentor & sitting the year.
 

2. Which leads to A) keeping the veteran you have on the roster in Tyrod Taylor, or B) signing another one that knows & accepts his role, someone like Derek Anderson. Did that happen? No.

3. Ok, so you sign McCarron instead. You know your only other QB other than your rookie is a 2nd year 5th round pick who became an interception meme. Combined games started between the trio was what, 4? At least McCarron showed he was capable enough of starting, is young enough to have some upside, and you got him at bargain bin pricing. Nope! Trade him for a 5th round pick, throw in the other 5th round pick INT machine as the starter, & have your project rookie as the #2.

4. So now you've already started the season backed into a corner. You're one injury or bad game away from having just your rookie QB & nobody else. Peterman plays like Peterman, doesn't even make it 1 game. A clear sign of decision making failure right there. It also adds another layer to the failure, as it casts doubt on your ability to even judge QB's, and here you are having just invested a ton picks into a rookie QB this past draft! You somehow thought this guy, Nathan Peterman, was so capable that you not only didn't need a veteran on the roster, you traded your backup plan before the first game! Yet we're supposed to believe you're the one who knows QB talent, and how to put that talent in a position to succeed? Good luck Josh Allen.

5. Alright, so at least we now know that you can't trust Peterman, Allen is the starter, and injuries can happen at any moment. So what would a smart coach do in that situation? Sign another QB immediately! But no, we gamble, trotting Allen out there week after week to get destroyed while looking completely out of his league in the process. We sign one 4 games later, but then shocker, Allen eventually gets hurt. In comes Pick-6 Peterman. Peterman does his schtick, McDermott finally realizes he has royally f'd up. Guy that's been there for a couple days now has to be starter.

6. In this whole time, QB's have been signed by various teams. Veterans on other rosters could be targeted for trades. Yes, that includes players like Teddy Bridgewater. "But is he healthy enough?" He's been cleared many times, was active last year, played well in the preseason, and wasn't expensive. It's a better option than what we've got, and funny enough, the same things were said about another Saints QB in Drew Brees before they signed him. 

7. To top it off, McDermott gets another fail for assembling this garbage WR corps & O-line KNOWING he's going to invest heavily in a rookie QB! Talk about putting them in a position to fail, this is more like putting them in a position to get destroyed & loose all confidence in the meantime. But hey, at least we had a veteran there to help lead, and help the other young QB's keep their head on their shoulders & help them understand what they're seeing out there...oh wait. McDermott mishandled the QB situation by also mishandling the other critical positions on offense.

 

And yes, it was VERY obvious we'd look like this! At some point I'm just going to go through the offseason posts & threads and show how easy this was to see coming. Just as easy was knowing it will inevitably lead to the OC getting blamed, fired, and this whole playbook Allen is learning thrown out the window...making half of what he learned this season worthless. It's like they went step by step through the "how to ruin a rookie QB" manual.

There's plenty more break down. But I've already come back & forth to this post a dozen times already while working on other things. Rather just finish it now, be told by eternal optimists that everything is better than it ever has been like they did all offseason, and come back later.

All very good points.  I think point 7 is really the biggest problem with the handling, regardless of McCarron trade.  None of the 3 they had in camp were ideal day 1 starters with their experience and the talent surrounding them.  There was a ton of overconfidence in their own abilities on display by the staff and FO to think what they put together would have even the slightest chance to be good.  They are playing the rebuilding card now, but who makes the playoffs the year prior with the plan to start rebuilding afterwards focusing on the D when you have a hell of a time paying a good D to stay together and have no O to provide any compliment?  

 

Demolition of a roster is the easy part, let’s see how good they are.  Every misstep will be magnified given how much they tore it down.  

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He was asked about Barkley.

 

He was also asked about Kaepernick........

 

When? What was Coach 's answer?

[Kwai San]

3 hours ago, Kevin1778 said:

The McCarron hairline fractured collarbone didn't help. An injury like that puts a team in a tough spot. Behind this line he likely would have broken it again.

 

Hmmmm totally forgot about that......still then.  The Bills "braintrust" must have KNOWN the O-Line was gonna blow huge chunks then.....well they were spot on for that prediction...

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I'll grant you that. But as far as the line being awful: in preseason, it was awful. This was to be expected!  They'd lost Incognito and Wood, and depending on how you look at it, Glenn too. It takes some time for the new line to gel. Every coach should understand this as it's something that happens with a bunch of teams every season. As the real season got going, the line (in my amateur assessment) is just ordinary "not good." It's not the colossal mess it seemed to be in August. So the "he'll get killed playing behind this line" isn't really an excuse, particularly when it comes to the options they faced when dumping McCarron: (1) put your prize possession first-rounder behind that line; (2) put Nathan Peterman behind that line. 

 

Two QB's have gone down to this O-Line.....not one but 2.  A rook - kinda understandable and a vet who frankly should know better.  Bottom line - How many does it take to realize this O-Line BLOWS HUGE CHUNKS!!!

[Gugny]

Here's where I get rubbed:  Going into the season with a rookie (take Allen's name out of it) and Nathan Peterman is irresponsible.

 

There's not a football fan on the face of the earth who didn't know that Nate Peterman is not an NFL QB ... let alone a backup ... let alone a starter.

 

I don't begrudge the Bills getting rid of McCarron for a 5th.  He made it pretty clear in preseason that there was a reason he's a career backup.  I also don't begrudge them for not going after Bridgewater for the reasons outlined upstream in this thread.

 

But, Christ.  Peterman and a rookie???  Why not get Anderson in here earlier?  Or kick Barkley's tires earlier?  Or any other FA QBs out there.

 

The entire attitude taken with regard to this position (the most important in all sports) was casual.  That is a failure.

 

I won't sit here and pretend that I know what they should have done.  That's just one reason I"m sitting in my dining room typing this and not an NFL GM.  But as a football fan, I can say with certainty that going into this season with Peterman and a rookie was Bush League, inept crap.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Gugny

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

You get a 5th round pick as a pro bowl player once every 10 years....last we had a successful 5th round pick was Kyle Williams

The 2017 fifth round included, Milano, George Kittle, Jayon Brown, Jake Elliott, and Aron Jones.

 

 

[klos63]

4 hours ago, mjt328 said:

AJ McCarron was dealing with a fractured collarbone. 

 

And he was outplayed by Nathan Peterman during both training camp and the preseason. 

 

And at the time, many Bills fans were calling for him to get cut. 

 

And most in the media felt Beane got a steal landing a 5th Round Pick. 

McCarron played the final preseason game after his injury. He was ok to play

If the coaches still thought Peterman was an NFL QB, that's on them. Fans can get fooled by preseason, coaches can't.

Who cares what the fans were calling for?

Who cares what the media thought about the trade?

 

A very poor defense of the QB decisions IMO.

[BillsVet]

51 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

The 2017 fifth round included, Milano, George Kittle, Jayon Brown, Jake Elliott, and Aron Jones.

 

Tell me historically what you think the hit rate for dependable NFL starters (not including K or P) is from the 5th round.    

 

In 2012 there were 34 5th round picks and of that, 5 have played in 80 games (out of 104 possible).  

 

In 2013 it was 6 out of 32 who've played more than 70 games (out of 88 possible).

 

In 2014 it's 4 out of 36 who've played more than 60 games (out of 72 possible).  

 

In a random sample of 3 draft years, that's 15 out of 102 players who have some staying power in the league, not necessarily that they're very good players.  Not what I'd call a good bet.  

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

This is easy:

 

How about "yeah, outbid Elway for Keenum".

 

or:

 

"was it wise to get rid of TT when your plan was to sit Allen behind a starting QB?"

 

Or:

 

"Kaepernick too much for Mr. Pegula to handle?"

 

What's the issue here?  That the press can't ask a question unless they have a followup?  I mean who hasn't asked about Bridgewater, TT, AJM already in this context?

 

 

How's Keenum working out for Denver? As for the other two, it seemed pretty obvious to me that they didn't want either guy because you have to run a different offense to maximize them, as neither can run a passing game out of the pocket. And rebuilding teams don't want to have to change the offense. Even in a horrible season like this one at least the team is learning the system so that next year when they upgrade the offensive personnel

 

I see why people might want to ask those questions, but I think the answers are pretty obvious. Now, if Keenum was kicking butt in Denver, the Broncos would look like geniuses and the Bills like eejits for that Keenum decision. Yeah, Keenum's been better than anyone we have but he hasn't been that good and Denver has a lot better talent around Keenum than we have on offense.

 

IMHO Wawrow has an interesting point. If you think that's the narrative on this major problem, more questions should be asked right now, and also in the past.

 

 

7 hours ago, mjt328 said:

AJ McCarron was dealing with a fractured collarbone. 

 

And he was outplayed by Nathan Peterman during both training camp and the preseason. 

 

And at the time, many Bills fans were calling for him to get cut. 

 

And most in the media felt Beane got a steal landing a 5th Round Pick. 

 

 

My understanding is that McCarron's diagnosis of a hairline collarbone was later found to have been mistaken.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/report-bills-aj-mccarron-didnt-fracture-collarbone-expected-to-return-to-practice-soon/

 

But yeah, he was outplayed. Looking back, they should have kept him anyway, but Carucci reported that they were worried that he had problems with being the third-stringer and they thought he might let his dissatisfaction show.

 

What they have is surely a major mess, but I understand letting him go if they thought he was going to cause problems in the locker room.

 

 

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

Here's where I get rubbed:  Going into the season with a rookie (take Allen's name out of it) and Nathan Peterman is irresponsible.

 

There's not a football fan on the face of the earth who didn't know that Nate Peterman is not an NFL QB ... let alone a backup ... let alone a starter.

 

I don't begrudge the Bills getting rid of McCarron for a 5th.  He made it pretty clear in preseason that there was a reason he's a career backup.  I also don't begrudge them for not going after Bridgewater for the reasons outlined upstream in this thread.

 

But, Christ.  Peterman and a rookie???  Why not get Anderson in here earlier?  Or kick Barkley's tires earlier?  Or any other FA QBs out there.

 

The entire attitude taken with regard to this position (the most important in all sports) was casual.  That is a failure.

 

I won't sit here and pretend that I know what they should have done.  That's just one reason I"m sitting in my dining room typing this and not an NFL GM.  But as a football fan, I can say with certainty that going into this season with Peterman and a rookie was Bush League, inept crap.

 

 

Yeah, this is a good point, I think. Bringing in Anderson or Barkley earlier would have been playing it safe and smart.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Thurman#1

[BobbyC81]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

But, Christ.  Peterman and a rookie???  Why not get Anderson in here earlier?  Or kick Barkley's tires earlier?  Or any other FA QBs out there

 

They claimed the injury situations at other positions prevented them from bringing Anderson in sooner.