In Defense of McD: are the claims McDermott is building the roster actually substantiated?

[Billsguy]

11 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

That person is McDermott, likely with Beane's input among others.

 

But it's McDermott's show, not Beane's.

 

 

Here is what I observe: the architects of the dreadful state of the Bills are the head coach and the GM. They are responsible for this mess. I don't know if they share responsibility equally, but they are both failing miserably at their jobs. When I hear the pathetic head coach deliver his, "Starting Nathen Peterman is the right thing to do" speech I want to throw up! Does he really believe Bills fans are that stupid? The general manager has constructed one of the worst offenses in Bills history and Bills fans are supposed to keep quiet? What an insult to all Bills fans! The Pegulas are ultimately responsible. Are they buying this BS from their head coach and GM? Apparently they are.

[CookieG]

1 hour ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Yeah, is that a fact? Anything? 

I think it's kind of foolish to assume that great coaches don't manage all phases of their team. 

Wade is a tremendous defensive coach, but I don't think he runs the show. 

If Mcdermott took that kind of attitude with the offense, it would be a major red flag. 

idk...Im sure McVay and Wade talk continuously. And I'm sure that Wade knows he's a DC and not an HC. And I'm sure McVay might give him ideas at times.

 

But for the most part, that's Wade's D. And it should be. There's little McVay could teach Wade about running a D and I'm sure he knows that. One of the best things you can do is hire first class talent and then stay out of his way, especially when its out of your area of expertise. McVay was extremely smart in hiring Wade, as was Pederson in hiring Schwartz. And Im sure both of those DC's had an ear with their GM's in giving suggestions on who they need in terms of personnel.

 

When Jauron was here, I didn't realize how much of a hand he had in the offense until he fired Schonert. It wasn't that Schonert was fired, it was his statements when he left, particularly about how Jauron was on his back all the time about this and that...especially about simplifying the offense.  

If there was a coach who needed to desperately stay away from an offense, it was Jauron. But he didn't and it showed. He'd go through an OC every 2 years, but never realized the problem was him. And his offenses were always at the bottom of the league.

 

It applies to the GM level as well.  The best thing the McBeane tandem can do in the offseason is bring in the best player personnel man they can find and let him run this ill-advised rebuild. If a new OC is warranted, let him find the new guy.  After 2 years, the rookie GM and the rookie HC have shown nothing in terms of building or running an offense. The sooner they realize this and bring in competent help, the better off they'll be.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

11 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I discovered the process. We need to totally rid whatever confidence and build up a loser culture to really explode up from the pits. Take the Chiefs.. their chart starts at our start and is increasing concave down as they make several playoffs until it hit an inflection point with Mahomes and exploded up.

 

Dumb***es don't know how to rebuild.

You call that a rebuild??? Laughable. They never even tore the team down. Just ridiculous.

Obviously before the POI they should have scrapped it all and roster dumped. All those playoffs losses were getting them nowhere.

 

I'm not gonna look it up and make a chart and all, but I remember the Saints pre Blue Drees.  They were 9-7 ish for a few years making the playoffs and not going far with Aaron Brooks at QB.  then they got Drew and took off.  They already had a good team and then added a QB.  Seems like a better plan than adding a QB with no talent and trying to build a whole team around him while he is starting and getting injured and developing bad habits running for his life.

[iinii]

5 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

People are wanting McD to win now when he has the lowest paid (least talented) roster in the NFL.   It typically doesn’t work that way.

 

People are wishing Beane had given McD a better roster when Beane only has one draft under his belt.   It typically doesn’t work that way.

 

Personally, I’m going to give both these guys more time.

He chose that path so it is on him. They threw out the baby with the bath water. 

[Perry Turtle]

Some NFL teams have the GM at the top of the decision making tree (which is the way most of us probably think it should work), and some have the HC in that lead position (Patriots, Seahawks, Raiders).

 

I think Pegula wants the HC to be the key decision maker, partly because he admires the way that Bob Kraft runs the Patriots.

 

Evidence of this is that both his head coaching decisions (Rex and McDermott) were made with little to no input from the GM.

 

When McDermott came in 'under' Whaley, McDermott placed him in a director of scouting role, where Whaley ran operations, but had no role in decision making.  Beane looks to be playing a similar role.

[BillsVet]

Arguing about the org chart and who's responsible is an exercise in futility.  There is no one way to structure the front office and successful teams each do things differently.  For example, John Schneider has essentially reported to Pete Carroll in Seattle going back to 2010. Green Bay had a more direct line with Ted Thompson down to Mike McCarthy up until last year. Belichick is effectively GM in NE. 

 

McBeane are going to keep their jobs beyond 2019 based on what they do on offense and how that side of the ball improves. Because trying to win with tough defense and a run based offense will max this team out at 8-9 wins.  McCoach can continue insisting that'll work, but he'll go down just like DJ did because that strategy isn't suited to the 21st century NFL.

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

 

//McDermott slowly realizing his GM tanking is not very good for his career.

 

A coach that is rebuilding is rebuilding for the next coach that comes in.  ask Gus Bradley if you don't believe me.

Edited October 31, 2018 by reddogblitz

[mjt328]

8 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

They just gambled on a tear down rather than a compromise by hedging bets (dump some, keep others). I personally hated the Charles Clay contract and thought that was something that should go if we're so worried about cap. Don't know the dead cap but if dropping Clay to keep Woods was remotely an option, then I'd do that in a hot minute. that's my percieved risk. I totally agree with getting a QB btw, but what does that have to do with blowing up the roster

 

They did keep some players.  LeSean McCoy, Jerry Hughes, Kyle Williams and Lorenzo Alexander were all valuable veterans who the front office decided to keep around.

And I'm sure that Eric Wood and Ritchie Incognito would still be on this roster, if not for both unexpectedly retiring.

 

To your point about Charles Clay - his contract (and the dead cap associated) is absolutely the reason the front office has not moved him yet.  His dead cap figure the last two seasons was $18 million and $13.5 million respectively, which is more than his cap hit for staying on the roster.  So cutting him wasn't an option, and I doubt he would field any trade offers.

 

I always liked Robert Woods.  But if he was on this passing offense, his stats would probably be about the same as Kelvin Benjamin or Zay Jones.  If the Bills paid him $7 million per season, the fans would be talking about how terrible his contract was. 

 

Blowing up the roster had EVERYTHING to do with getting a QB.  Our main reason for trading Sammy Watkins, Ronald Darby, Cordy Glenn and Tyrod Taylor was to get enough draft picks to trade up. 

 

[3rdand12]

19 hours ago, ganesh said:

I think Beane and McDermott have equal power and report to the President of the team (Kim).  McDermott drafted Peterman before Beane came on board.  The biggest mistake Beane made was in his hurry to hoard draft picks decided to ship McAaron to the Raiders when he could have kept all the three QBs on the roster.  This would given both Allen and Nate to learn the game more.  Everyone talks about Allen sitting for a year but no one is talking about why  Nate shouldn't do the same...After all he was a 5th round draft pick from last year.   If McAaron had been retained, this mess could have been avoided.   The HC and GM overthought themselves and saw what Nate did in pre-season and annoited him the starter only to pull him out in the 4th quarter of game 1....What is troubling me is that LACK of Faith in your starting QB especially after you shipped his competition the previous week and then threw the rookie to the wolves.   For this Beane and McDermott need to be held accountable.  They have clearly made a gross mistake at the most critical position on the team.

This is the key. Well  noted.

 Maybe he shipped him off thinking to do him some favor ? Maybe they had  a disagreement ?

 But AJM should have been kept on till someone better shook free.
It was simple math then and still is. Very small thinking to go with 2 QBs considering exp and pedigree.
Neither had proven ANYTHING positive in the NFL yet.
its almost too obviously wrong what they did after Drafting Allen. a very WTF moment for me loosing AJM..

[Bing Bong]

47 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

They did keep some players.  LeSean McCoy, Jerry Hughes, Kyle Williams and Lorenzo Alexander were all valuable veterans who the front office decided to keep around.

And I'm sure that Eric Wood and Ritchie Incognito would still be on this roster, if not for both unexpectedly retiring.

 

To your point about Charles Clay - his contract (and the dead cap associated) is absolutely the reason the front office has not moved him yet.  His dead cap figure the last two seasons was $18 million and $13.5 million respectively, which is more than his cap hit for staying on the roster.  So cutting him wasn't an option, and I doubt he would field any trade offers.

 

I always liked Robert Woods.  But if he was on this passing offense, his stats would probably be about the same as Kelvin Benjamin or Zay Jones.  If the Bills paid him $7 million per season, the fans would be talking about how terrible his contract was. 

 

Blowing up the roster had EVERYTHING to do with getting a QB.  Our main reason for trading Sammy Watkins, Ronald Darby, Cordy Glenn and Tyrod Taylor was to get enough draft picks to trade up. 

 

Yeah.. I really didn't like the Clay signing.

 

Almost positive Cogs and Wood left partially because Tyrod was getting the door. Old dudes had their fun in a run happy offense and weren't ending there careers like this 2018 season. Plus they were crazy/banged up.. but whatever. 

 

Damn you for making me do research, Beane made a jigsaw puzzle out of this: we got Allen moving to 12 with a 1st (that we always had) and Glenn, then 12 to 7 with basically that 12th overall, a 2nd from the Sammy trade, and another 2nd (that we always had).

 

So.. Glenn, Sammy, and a playoff bottom feeder round 1 and 2 packaged for Allen. Not bad for a #7 overall QB, 3rd Qb taken. No /s there. But that didn't blow up the roster.

 

We got jack for Ronald Darby: #6 Eagles depth chart player Matthews and a 3rd. And then traded a better third for our bud KB, who's going to end his career here as a pretty useless receiver in an offense. Tyrod netted a 3rd helping get Tremaine Edmunds. 

 

Dumped Dareus who's useless, Ragland who didn't fit. And the rest is just a jumbled mess of late round draft picks getting exchanged around, with 2nd round Dawkins and 2nd round Zay trade ups happening.

 

Are we drafting well? Yeah reasonably. Let's say we keep Woods (he's ABSOLUTELY worth $7M a year especially knowing we're about to invest heavily in a QB). Get Zay, get Ridley, (no Edmunds), no Star for some interior linemen.. vets were available, 2 for the price of one without Star. Keep Darby cause why the heck not?? Oh we play a zone coverage? I wonder what josh Norman did with McDermott..

 

See what we have now.. offensive talent and more importantly VETERANS. Those dudes are important.. because they've proved they can stick around in the league. Point is we didn't gut the roster for Allen, we gutted it for him but mostly a beefed up defense. Don't give a **** now but that team kicks our version's ass, and is still in a position to get cap and draft and whatnot. We'll be better next year, we could have been much better this year, and be in the exact same position and maybe people wouldn't be calling for McDermott's head because his job is pretty damn impossible. I don't want a losing culture. And that's exactly what happens when our defense KNOWS they are going to lose no matter how well they play. That kills competitors until they collect their paychecks and say well **** it i guess this is what playing for the Bills is like.

[SoCal Deek]

I'll mention this again...how in the world would anyone consider 2018 a rebuild? They have virtually no new players on the starting roster!  That's especially true with BOTH first round picks now out with injuries. Neither the offensive or defensive starting units have a single player that stands out as a fresh new face from 2017.  This year can only be described as a "Lost Season" and a big asterisk should be placed next to it in Bills history....sort of like the Strike year.

[TigerJ]

Unless a team is in extreme win now mode, every GM/coach combination is attempting to build a roster.  Some are better at it than others, and some salary cap situations make it more difficult or easier than others.  The problem for fans, I think, is that until a team is well into the team building process, it's really hard to make a judgment objectively about whether or not it is succeeding.  Fans, IMO, are generally not the most patient class of people on the planet, and I think Bills fans (because of a long history of mediocrity) are less patient than most.  My concern is that if Joe fan gets his wish and every coach/GM, who doesn't build a consistent winner in two years time, gets fired, in only guarantees the pattern of mediocrity with continue forever.

[SoCal Deek]

I'm assuming the rebuild is supposed to come from the Draft Class.  This past year's draft included:

 

Allen...hurt and not originally intended to start

Edmunds...hurt but was at least starting

Phillips...sometimes on the field, but subbing for a guy in the twilight of his career

Johnson...he's been in and out

Neal...has he been playing?

Teller...witness protection program

Rey Rey...not so much

Proehl...who?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see a whole ton of rebuilding going on.

[Bing Bong]

19 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

The problem for fans, I think, is that until a team is well into the team building process, it's really hard to make a judgment objectively about whether or not it is succeeding.  Fans, IMO, are generally not the most patient class of people on the planet, and I think Bills fans (because of a long history of mediocrity) are less patient than most.  My concern is that if Joe fan gets his wish and every coach/GM, who doesn't build a consistent winner in two years time, gets fired, in only guarantees the pattern of mediocrity with continue forever.

No I mean we're saddled with this regime right now. Would be stupid to move on. It's easy to break a roster down, and monumentally difficult to get it back up, but only Beane knows at least what he's going to do with this so he's the best guy for fixing the mess he created.. that's the annoying part basically. Of course if JA doesn't pan out the rug's pulled from under them that's when it needs to be determined if they stay for a consistent span or GTFO ASAP.

[TroutDog]

22 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Beane is McDermott's servant. He is the GM in Buffalo only b/c McDermott wants him here.

 

If that changes, Beane will be gone.

 

It's not uncommon in the NFL for the HC to be higher than the GM on the totem pole.

 

 

You post this everywhere: how do you KNOW? Do you know their intentions? Sat in on meetings? This is silly talk. 

 

One can look at what’s happening and deduce what they THINK is happening but speaking of definitives like this reeks of judging without knowing or understanding the plan. 

 

You appear to think you know more than you do and that is always a dangerous game. This regime took us to the playoffs last year. 

[The Wiz]

McD can want players, beane can ask for players from other teams.

 

Other than that, no one knows how they operate unless they are part of the front office.

[TigerJ]

Players get hurt?  Shocking!  As far as this year's draft class is concerned, I think the hope certainly is that Josh Allen will be a franchise QB, and that Tremaine Edmunds will be a decade plus starter at middle linebacker.  Harrison Phillips, I think, was seen as a possible starter.  Everybody else was a possible depth contributor.  If one of the later draft picks eventually becomes a quality starter, that is seen by the team as a bonus.  Unless Anderson/Barkley/Peterman suddenly clicks and plays well enough to keep Josh Allen on the bench, then they revert to the original plan- let Allen learn as a backup this year and starting sometime next year.  In any case, most people in the know will say you can't really evaluate a draft class in the year that the draft took place.

 

I think Buffalo has made a few other additions that might have potential as future rotational players or better.  Jordan Phillips was a real interesting signing IMO.  He has an incredible size/athleticism profile.  I'm not sure what the problem was in Miami, but so far he seems like a good fit in Buffalo, and at 26, he's just approaching his prime.  Trent Murphy was a gamble because of health issues, but had in paid off, Beane would have looked brilliant.  In any case, next offseason is his best chance to make a huge impact building the team.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Players get hurt?  Shocking!  As far as this year's draft class is concerned, I think the hope certainly is that Josh Allen will be a franchise QB, and that Tremaine Edmunds will be a decade plus starter at middle linebacker.  Harrison Phillips, I think, was seen as a possible starter.  Everybody else was a possible depth contributor.  If one of the later draft picks eventually becomes a quality starter, that is seen by the team as a bonus.  Unless Anderson/Barkley/Peterman suddenly clicks and plays well enough to keep Josh Allen on the bench, then they revert to the original plan- let Allen learn as a backup this year and starting sometime next year.  In any case, most people in the know will say you can't really evaluate a draft class in the year that the draft took place.

 

I think Buffalo has made a few other additions that might have potential as future rotational players or better.  Jordan Phillips was a real interesting signing IMO.  He has an incredible size/athleticism profile.  I'm not sure what the problem was in Miami, but so far he seems like a good fit in Buffalo, and at 26, he's just approaching his prime.  Trent Murphy was a gamble because of health issues, but had in paid off, Beane would have looked brilliant.  In any case, next offseason is his best chance to make a huge impact building the team.

Taron Johnson is working out OK as the slot CB as well 

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

And that's exactly what happens when our defense KNOWS they are going to lose no matter how well they play. That kills competitors until they collect their paychecks and say well **** it i guess this is what playing for the Bills is like.

 

This is my concern with throwing the season. Good players will get frustrated and say things that Coach McDermott will view as guys that don't respect "THE PROCESS".  So we'll have to dump them creating more holes that need to be filled.

[ganesh]

23 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

Honestly what would our record be with McCarron starting? Probably the same as it is now.

 

Lets not be naive...no option they had at QB was making them a playoff team. I swear people are in fantasy land with this stuff. It did not matter who they had the team around them is so bad offensively we were going to be really bad regardless.

 

They have a lot of work to do on offense but they have a lot of money next year and will have a top 5 draft pick most likely.

It is not even about the team record.  It is about the flux in the organization.  Now you are bringing QBs from the street on a weekly basis.  There is no continuity or consistency in what the team does day in day out.  When you bungle the most important position, the team as a whole will be quitting as they have no interest