How does a QB deficient team pass on Mahomes/Watson

[C.Biscuit97]

24 minutes ago, Luka said:

Pretty simple. They weren't going to get stuck with another Whaley QB after the EJ debacle. Time will tell if that was a good or bad choice. But the logic behind it is sound.

EJ Manuel would have the highest career QB rating of any qb on the Bils roster right now. 

?

7 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

This brings back painful memories of the late 60's  when the Bills went 1-13 and wound up selecting OJ as the #1 pick in the draft.  I remembering watching the last game of the year.   It was against the equally bad Dolphins.   The Bills almost won the game and almost lost the #1 pick to the fish.  Can you imagine if OJ had played most of his career in Miami? 

OJ probably would have gotten in trouble in Miami.

21 minutes ago, Kevin1778 said:

 

Nathan Peteman was a 5th round draft pick given a very small contract. How is that  seeing "lots of value" in a player. And Josh Allen has looked exactly like they expected. He won games against the Vikings and Titans. He was 2-2 in games he started and finished. That isn't too bad. He has all the tools you need and looked exactly like all rookie quarterbacks. 

Haha, that’s why qb win loss records are a joke.  Allen had 50 yards passing before he completed 2 screen passes in the last drive.  He was awful in the Titans game.  Defense won that game.

[Real McClappy]

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I would have liked Watson, said so at the time.  Mahomes had a lot of questions regarding footwork and ability to adapt to the pro game.  

Same, had Trub, Watson and Mahomes in that order.

 

Mahomes def has some mechanical issues but in fairness so does Allen, both their scouting reports and grades are very similar. 

 

I'm fairly confident that if Josh Allen was in KC with all those weapons, coaching staff with a year to sit behind a decent QB in Alex Smith we would be seeing Allen tear it up like Mahomes is now. 

 

I'm pumped that Tre looks like a stud pro-bowl CB for years to come.  Thank goodness that worked out or this topic would look much worse. I'm 100% ok with Allen and Tre right now. I'm really excited to see Allen develop into a stud.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Real McCoy

[Elite Poster]

11 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Because they were about to lose their starting Pro Bowl to free agency.  So they traded down and got Tre WHite

 

Because they HAD a starting QB......he was not a pro bowl guy regardless of making pro bowls.....but they did have a starting guy

 

Because the following draft was supposed to be a QB draft.....and when you connect the dots it looks like the plan was ALWAYS to take a QB that following year

 

?????

 

Doesn't make it the right decision. You can't just keep defending boneheaded moves because of perceived reasons. This guy thought TWICE Peterman was the answer and he has shown a clear deficiency in the evaluation of a good QB. Whaley loved Watson. We would've had our guy already. Instead we have a project that is dead last in every QB category and somehow needs to make a rocket projection upwards next year with a piss poor situation. So go ahead do your thing, mention Goff, we all know how this goes. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Real McCoy said:

Same, had Trub, Watson and Mahomes in that order.

 

Mahomes def has some mechanical issues but in fairness so does Allen, both their scouting reports and grades are very similar. 

 

I'm fairly confident that if Josh Allen was in KC with all those weapons, coaching staff with a year to sit behind a decent QB in Alex Smith we would be seeing Allen tearing it up like Mahomes is now. 

 

I'm pumped that Tre looks like a stud pro-bowl CB for years to come.  Thank goodness that that worked out or this topic would look much worse. I'm 100% ok with Allen and Tre right now. I'm really excited to see Allen develop into a stud.

I had Mitch the lowest of those 3 guys.  I would be an excellent GM.

2 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

Doesn't make it the right decision. You can't just keep defending boneheaded moves because of perceived reasons. This guy thought TWICE Peterman was the answer and he has shown a clear deficiency in the evaluation of a good QB. Whaley loved Watson. We would've had our guy already. Instead we have a project that is dead last in every QB category and somehow needs to make a rocket projection upwards next year with a piss poor situation. So go ahead do your thing, mention Goff, we all know how this goes. 

My hot take: Whaley will be remembered as a better GM than McBeane.  Also, EJ Manuel will finish with a higher career qb rating that Josh Allen. ? ? ? 

[Real McClappy]

15 minutes ago, Rebel101 said:

No I don’t think anyone should be fired McDermott should be given time. I was just trying to have a discussion about why people thought he didn’t pick one. What do people think were the reasons and factors that made McDermott do what he did. I know there has been a lot of threads but none really discussed the actual reason behind why McDermott did what he did. And do people think he is just bad a evaluating offensive talent or was he unsure of his abilities as an evaluator? Or did he really just want to completely tear down a team for the hell of it

Weird draft and year without his GM. I have thought about this for a long time as well. If Beane was the GM during that draft would we have gone QB with Mahomes or Watson? 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Real McCoy

[Elite Poster]

6 hours ago, simpleman said:

Wrong answer. KC rated him not only 1st round, but worth 2 1st rounds, and a third. Just shows what competent scouting and drafting for QBs and offensive players looks like . Wish the Bills had that level of competence.

 

 

"Nobody" means Mel Kiper dude...You can't win on this website. Just defend the FO until they suck for 3-5 straight years then blame game starts. Rinse repeat. McDermott is flawed philosophically to his core and unless he changes it up, we won't go anywhere.

 

Our defense relies on turnovers and absolutely gets destroyed if we don't get them and our offensive philosophy is more old school than the best team we've ever had playing in this same damn stadium. 

Just now, Real McCoy said:

Weird draft and year without his GM. I've have thought about this for a long time as well. If Beane was the GM during that draft would we have gone QB with Mahomes or Watson? 

 

Neither! They don't fit what he had said he looks for in a QB at all. He stated he wanted a big guy that stands tall in the pocket and that isn't what either of these guys did in college. 

 

Honestly in hindsight, it was so obvious Allen was who they wanted. Big arm, stand tall, prototypical size. They will teach him the accuracy and reading a defense part. 

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Weird draft and year without his GM. I've have thought about this for a long time as well. If Beane was the GM during that draft would we have gone QB with Mahomes or Watson? 

This regime is great on defense but completely clueless on offense.

2 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

"Nobody" means Mel Kiper dude...You can't win on this website. Just defend the FO until they suck for 3-5 straight years then blame game starts. Rinse repeat. McDermott is flawed philosophically to his core and unless he changes it up, we won't go anywhere.

 

Our defense relies on turnovers and absolutely gets destroyed if we don't get them and our offensive philosophy is more old school than the best team we've ever had playing in this same damn stadium. 

Hard to argue with this post if you are a rational person and that sucks.

[Elite Poster]

52 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

That might just be because 2017 is a year more experience that 2018.

 

Well even comparing performances from those years it still holds true. The 2018 guys across the board are also playing more at this point so who knows. 

[longtimebillsfan]

Imagine if Allen was drafted by KC and given a year to mature in that system with all of that talent around him.  Then imagine if Mahomes was drafted by the Bills and in our offense.   This board would be complaining that someone should loose their job over not drafting Allen.   I know the time line does not work out, but I am just stating the system and talent level does affect the success of a quarterback. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by longtimebillsfan

[Elite Poster]

12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

This regime is great on defense but completely clueless on offense.

Hard to argue with this post if you are a rational person and that sucks.

 

The funny part of is all is if you look at Mel Kiper's predraft rankings, they line up pretty well with how our FO evaluated players. 

 

ESPN sucks though, right guys???

2 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Imagine if Allen was drafted by KC and given a year to mature in that system with all of that talent around him.  Then imagine if Mahomes was drafted by the Bills and in our offense.   This board would be complaining that someone should loose their job over not drafting Allen.   I know the time line does not work out, but I am just stating the system and talent level does affect the success of a quarterback. 

 

Mahomes has shown the ability to read a defense and hit an open receiver. We are still figuring out if the guy with a rocket arm who had poor deep ball accuracy in college and, surprise still does, can magically get accurate with faster and smarter defenders playing against him..

[oldmanfan]

24 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Same, had Trub, Watson and Mahomes in that order.

 

Mahomes def has some mechanical issues but in fairness so does Allen, both their scouting reports and grades are very similar. 

 

I'm fairly confident that if Josh Allen was in KC with all those weapons, coaching staff with a year to sit behind a decent QB in Alex Smith we would be seeing Allen tear it up like Mahomes is now. 

 

I'm pumped that Tre looks like a stud pro-bowl CB for years to come.  Thank goodness that worked out or this topic would look much worse. I'm 100% ok with Allen and Tre right now. I'm really excited to see Allen develop into a stud.

Agree with all you've said

[longtimebillsfan]

3 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

The funny part of is all is if you look at Mel Kiper's predraft rankings, they line up pretty well with how our FO evaluated players. 

 

ESPN sucks though, right guys???

 

Mahomes has shown the ability to read a defense and hit an open receiver. We are still figuring out if the guy with a rocket arm who had poor deep ball accuracy in college and, surprise still does, can magically get accurate with faster and smarter defenders playing against him..

It can't hurt. 

[Real McClappy]

22 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

"Nobody" means Mel Kiper dude...You can't win on this website. Just defend the FO until they suck for 3-5 straight years then blame game starts. Rinse repeat. McDermott is flawed philosophically to his core and unless he changes it up, we won't go anywhere.

 

Our defense relies on turnovers and absolutely gets destroyed if we don't get them and our offensive philosophy is more old school than the best team we've ever had playing in this same damn stadium. 

 

Neither! They don't fit what he had said he looks for in a QB at all. He stated he wanted a big guy that stands tall in the pocket and that isn't what either of these guys did in college. 

 

Honestly in hindsight, it was so obvious Allen was who they wanted. Big arm, stand tall, prototypical size. They will teach him the accuracy and reading a defense part. 

If McD knew that a GM transition was coming post draft can you blame him for not selecting a QB until the new GM and scouting was in place? Going off Whaley's scouting team on the most important position in all of sports would have been reckless IMO if he knew Doug was gone post draft. 

 

Give Allen more time. If he straight up busts then these arguments are valid I suppose. I think we all agree that if Allen had the exact same scenario in KC as Mahomes he would be playing great. We need more time to see if this FO can build up the offense for Allen in 2019. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Real McCoy

[Albany,n.y.]

59 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Your right this is kind of hindsight to a degree, but many, many posters from this forum alone were calling out to draft Mahomes, Trub or Watson as we needed a QB then and the talent was in our pocket at number 10. The ones that were against it and supporting the decision were saying "next years* QB class is better which is fine as it's still to be determined. Currently right now the 2017 draft class is better and we passed. There is zero we can do know but think what could have been which sucks but is reality at this point. 

 

Time will tell

 

But so far

 

2017

Mitch Trubisky

Deshaun Watson

Patrick Mahomes

C.J Beathard

 

draft class is  much greater than 

 

2018

Baker Mayfield

Sam Darnold

Josh Allen

Josh Rosen

 

Let's compare apples to apples.  Each QB to each as rookies so far in draft order:

 

Trubisky/Mayfield:  Mayfield entered the lineup sooner than Trubisky & has performed better than Trubisky had done by week 8.  Slight Advantage Mayfield

 

Watson/Darnold:  At this point, just prior to his season ending injury, Watson was playing great, Darnold has been a typical up & down rookie.  Clear advantage Watson

 

Mahomes/Allen: In 2017 Mahomes hadn't taken a snap yet.  Allen has played the 1st 6 games starting & finishing 4 of them. He is now currently injured, out about a month. Allen has led his team to 2 victories, including a final drive vs Tennessee.  Anyone who is writing  Allen off as a bust is out of their friggin mind & most likely is trying to be proven right because they didn't want him in the 1st place.  Based on the fact that Mahomes hadn't even played yet-HUGE ADVANTAGE ALLEN. 

 

Beathard/Rosen: This is a comparison that shouldn't really be made since we're talking a 3rd rounder who was not the 4th QB taken vs a top 10 1st rounder, but let's look at the right comparison 1st & get around to the Beathard/Rosen  comp later.  The 4th QB taken in 2017 was Kizer by Cleveland followed by Webb by the NYG & then Beathard.  Kizer was named the starter and hadn't won a game before week 8 (and never did), subsequently he played poorly enough to get traded after 1 season, Webb was behind Manning and if he played at all it was mop up duty.  Subsequently, Webb never started a game for NYG & got cut before his 2nd season. He's currently on the Jets practice squad. Beathard got the starter's job early in his rookie year but was nothing special and SF jumped at the opportunity to replace him with Garoppolo at the trade deadline.  Rosen has started a few games & is having rookie growing pains.  Still, he is starting & hopefully learning from his mistakes.  No advantage to or against Rosen in comparison to Kizer/Webb/Beathard, although Rosen is looked at as a much better long term prospect than any of those three 2-3 rounders who were taken in QB order 4-5-6.  

[Elite Poster]

8 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

If McD knew that a GM transition was coming post draft can you blame him for not selecting a QB until the new GM and scouting was in place? Going off Whaley's scouting team on the most important position in all of sports would have been reckless IMO if he knew Doug was gone post draft. 

 

Give Allen more time. If he straight up busts then these arguments are valid I suppose. I think we all agree that if Allen had the exact same scenario in KC as Mahomes he would be playing great. We need more time to see if this FO can build up the offense for Allen in 2019. 

 

These are all fair points. Thanks for not calling me an idiot etc just because we disagree cause that's what been going on here lately. 

 

Undeniably though, they are trying to assemble the Carolina SB team and that team was 1 and done. I just don't see it. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Elite Poster

[C.Biscuit97]

15 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Imagine if Allen was drafted by KC and given a year to mature in that system with all of that talent around him.  Then imagine if Mahomes was drafted by the Bills and in our offense.   This board would be complaining that someone should loose their job over not drafting Allen.   I know the time line does not work out, but I am just stating the system and talent level does affect the success of a quarterback. 

How do we know Andy Reid would have picked Josh Allen?  He was a 56% passer in the MWC with 2 career 300 yard games?  He is tall and has big hands though. 

9 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

If McD knew that a GM transition was coming post draft can you blame him for not selecting a QB until the new GM and scouting was in place? Going off Whaley's scouting team on the most important position in all of sports would have been reckless IMO if he knew Doug was gone post draft. 

 

Give Allen more time. If he straight up busts then these arguments are valid I suppose. I think we all agree that if Allen had the exact same scenario in KC as Mahomes he would be playing great. We need more time to see if this FO can build up the offense for Allen in 2019. 

Allen never put up Mahomes numbers this year in the MWC.  Very simplistic to just assume he could do what Mahomes is doing.

[longtimebillsfan]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How do we know Andy Reid would have picked Josh Allen?  He was a 56% passer in the MWC with 2 career 300 yard games?  He is tall and has big hands though. 

That was an assumption for the premise I made.  

[teef]

3 hours ago, Casey D said:

We should always take the best player based on after the fact performance.  Easy.

Sign me up for this strategy. 

[Real McClappy]

2 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

These are all fair points. Thanks for not calling me an idiot etc just because we disagree cause that's what been going on here lately. 

I agree, we are having a logical thread/replies on a topic where opinions will vary greatly that I assume Mods encourage instead of name calling crap. We are all here as we are fans and love this team. The last many regimes have been tough to swallow as a Bills fan and I totally understand and actually respect then lack of patience. For me, this FO deserves 2019 FA and draft. I'm glad they understand the importance of QB trading up and taking Allen last draft. I'm willing to give the rest of this year and next to fairly evaluate. 

 

Heck, Allen is the 4th QB ever taken by this franchise in the 1st round over the past 50 years. That alone shows how past regimes have failed us and why the Bills have been stuck in the mud without a franchise guy, excluding JK. 

[mannc]

12 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

What are the odds Watson or Mahomes is successful here? Even with the players lost via trade and free agency.

Why is it a given they “missed” on these picks? 

Watson is a year and a half into his career and what 6-7 games for Mahomes? 

While im not sold on Allen as a franchise guy I just don’t see the fascination with other quarterbacks we could of drafted instead.

totally different systems and team situations. 

The “they would have sucked here” argument is probably the worst take ever.  Watson and  Mahomes are already outstanding NFL QBs.  There is absolutely no reason to believe that either is going to regress. Meanwhile, we have the worst qb situation in the league, by far.  And we should just shut up about it?